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Thread: Reducing cell count?

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2000
    Location: Paris, France

    Reducing cell count?

    I've recently reached max cells on my mission, and am desperately trying stay under the cell limit by subtly reducing polys and cells wherever I can, using the show_cells command. It's working, as I can successfully optimize my level every so often. I still have a bit of building to do however, so I'm not out of the woods yet. I've read that blockable brushes can impact cell complexity, or at least have some control over how the cells are dispersed.

    Is this true?

    If so, using blockable brushes might allow me to reduce cell count and help me finish this fm. In this case, where could I find the best tutorial for blockable brushes?
    Last edited by Sperry; 8th Jul 2018 at 05:38. Reason: retitled the thread

  2. #2
    Dóttirin klęšist oft móšur möttli
    Registered: Apr 2015
    Blockable Brushes will increase the cell count.
    We discussed saving WR-cells some times ago
    http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post2351673
    Yes, you can save a lot of WR cells.

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2000
    Location: Paris, France
    This will help tons, thank you! :-)

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2000
    Location: Paris, France
    I have a new question. Can someone please inform me of the max cell count in T1 and T2 old dark? I'm having trouble finding this info. Thanks!

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2011
    Location: ���&#5671
    I think it was 28.672

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2000
    Location: Paris, France
    Quote Originally Posted by Squadarofl View Post
    I think it was 28.672
    Is this for T1 as well? Or only T2?

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2011
    Location: ���&#5671
    I'm speaking for T2 but I can't find any information for TG

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2000
    Location: Paris, France
    Quote Originally Posted by Squadarofl View Post
    I'm speaking for T2 but I can't find any information for TG
    Ok thanks! If anyone can help me find the limits for T1 or TG (are they the same?), that would be great.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2000
    Location: Paris, France
    I'm actually having trouble getting over the 24560 cell count. For the record, could this be the T1 old dark cell limit?

  10. #10
    Dóttirin klęšist oft móšur möttli
    Registered: Apr 2015
    WR cell limit
    Olddark: 28672
    NewDark: 32760

    There are more limits. Maybe you hit another one.

    modders notes/ND 1.26

    Code:
    Changed Limits/Limitations
    --------------------------
    
    Note that not all limits imply that it's possible to push as far as the limit suggests, because other parts of the
    engine might hit another limit first. For example the max brush limit might be hit before the max regions limit,
    or vice versa. Also note that the increased limits do not imply that the game will run at playable framerates up
    to those limits, or even close.
    
    Max concrete object IDs: 8192 (from 4096)
    Max visible objects: 1280 (from 128)
    Max texture dimension: 4096 (from 1024)
    Max texture animation frames: 99 (from 20)
    Max drawn terrain polys: 20480 (from 1024)
    Max ambient sound objects: 1024 (from 256)
    Max cells for bounding sphere spatial queries: 1024 (from 512)
    Max cells a dynamic light can reach: 1024 (from 512)
    Max portal clip regions: 20480 (from 2048)
    Max characters per cfg-file line: 8192 (from 80)
    Max display resolution: x4800 (actual limit depends on HW) DX9 / 2048x2048 DX6 (from 1024x768)
    
    Max brushes: 16384 (from 7068)
    Max regions (/ worldrep (WR) cells): 32760 (from 28672)
    Max active regions: 20480 (from 768)
    Max rooms: 4096 (from 1024)
    Max AI path cells: 131070 (from 65534)
    Max texture families: 32 (from 16)
    Max family textures: 1024-ish (from 256-ish)
    Max application data handles: 4096 (from 2048)
    Max model handles: 2048 (from 1024)
    Max static lights: 2016 (from 736)
    Max cells a static/anim light can reach: 32760 (from 512)
    Max anim light to cell pairings: 49152 (from 16384)
    Max brush faces/sides: 28 (from 12)
    Max decals per page on Thief maps: 256 (from 64)
    Max pages per mission on Thief maps: 32 (from 8) [where visited area functionality works correctly]
    Max world size: configurable up to +/-2000 (from +/-1000) [only increase if absolutely necessary]
    MAX_TJOINT_EDGES: 131072 (from 65536) [internal processing buffer]
    MAX_TJOINT_DIRS: 32768 (from 16384) [internal processing buffer]
    MAX_GLOBAL_RENDER: 32000 (from 8000) [internal processing buffer]
    MAX_GLOBAL_PLANES: 65536 (from 16384) [internal processing buffer]
    MAX_GLOBAL_POINTS: 256k (from 128k) [internal processing buffer]
    
    New image formats: PNG, DDS, PCX 32-bit, BMP 24/32-bit, BMP RLE, TGA RLE
    
    Full 32-bit rendering pipeline support, from 32-bit textures to 32-bit render surfaces.
    
    
    Notable Unchanged Limitations
    -----------------------------
    
    Polygon limits for objects have NOT changed, those limits are due to format constraints (the use of 16-bit
    data offsets in object data).
    
    Texture size limitations have NOT changed, they have to be power-of-two (POT) sized, i.e. 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32,
    64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, 4096.
    
    Family palettes are still used for indexed (/palette based) family textures. Only true color image formats (16-/
    24-/32-bit) can ignore family palettes.
    
    Max sunlight ray length remains 1000 units.
    
    This is nothing new, it has always been this way but it may not have been known or widely enough known.
    All filenames and directory names for files used by Dark must be 30 characters or less (excluding extension).
    FMs/mods containing files or directories with longer names may have worked, but they may as well only appeared
    to have worked and causing not immediately noticeable problems under the hood. While there some exceptions for
    certain types of files, it wouldn't be helpful or wise to go into what those are, instead the rule should simply
    be to NEVER use names longer than 30 characters.

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2000
    Location: Paris, France
    Quote Originally Posted by Unna Oertdottir View Post
    WR cell limit
    Olddark: 28672
    NewDark: 32760

    There are more limits. Maybe you hit another one.

    modders notes/ND 1.26

    Code:
    Changed Limits/Limitations
    --------------------------
    
    Note that not all limits imply that it's possible to push as far as the limit suggests, because other parts of the
    engine might hit another limit first. For example the max brush limit might be hit before the max regions limit,
    or vice versa. Also note that the increased limits do not imply that the game will run at playable framerates up
    to those limits, or even close.
    
    Max concrete object IDs: 8192 (from 4096)
    Max visible objects: 1280 (from 128)
    Max texture dimension: 4096 (from 1024)
    Max texture animation frames: 99 (from 20)
    Max drawn terrain polys: 20480 (from 1024)
    Max ambient sound objects: 1024 (from 256)
    Max cells for bounding sphere spatial queries: 1024 (from 512)
    Max cells a dynamic light can reach: 1024 (from 512)
    Max portal clip regions: 20480 (from 2048)
    Max characters per cfg-file line: 8192 (from 80)
    Max display resolution: x4800 (actual limit depends on HW) DX9 / 2048x2048 DX6 (from 1024x768)
    
    Max brushes: 16384 (from 7068)
    Max regions (/ worldrep (WR) cells): 32760 (from 28672)
    Max active regions: 20480 (from 768)
    Max rooms: 4096 (from 1024)
    Max AI path cells: 131070 (from 65534)
    Max texture families: 32 (from 16)
    Max family textures: 1024-ish (from 256-ish)
    Max application data handles: 4096 (from 2048)
    Max model handles: 2048 (from 1024)
    Max static lights: 2016 (from 736)
    Max cells a static/anim light can reach: 32760 (from 512)
    Max anim light to cell pairings: 49152 (from 16384)
    Max brush faces/sides: 28 (from 12)
    Max decals per page on Thief maps: 256 (from 64)
    Max pages per mission on Thief maps: 32 (from 8) [where visited area functionality works correctly]
    Max world size: configurable up to +/-2000 (from +/-1000) [only increase if absolutely necessary]
    MAX_TJOINT_EDGES: 131072 (from 65536) [internal processing buffer]
    MAX_TJOINT_DIRS: 32768 (from 16384) [internal processing buffer]
    MAX_GLOBAL_RENDER: 32000 (from 8000) [internal processing buffer]
    MAX_GLOBAL_PLANES: 65536 (from 16384) [internal processing buffer]
    MAX_GLOBAL_POINTS: 256k (from 128k) [internal processing buffer]
    
    New image formats: PNG, DDS, PCX 32-bit, BMP 24/32-bit, BMP RLE, TGA RLE
    
    Full 32-bit rendering pipeline support, from 32-bit textures to 32-bit render surfaces.
    
    
    Notable Unchanged Limitations
    -----------------------------
    
    Polygon limits for objects have NOT changed, those limits are due to format constraints (the use of 16-bit
    data offsets in object data).
    
    Texture size limitations have NOT changed, they have to be power-of-two (POT) sized, i.e. 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32,
    64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, 4096.
    
    Family palettes are still used for indexed (/palette based) family textures. Only true color image formats (16-/
    24-/32-bit) can ignore family palettes.
    
    Max sunlight ray length remains 1000 units.
    
    This is nothing new, it has always been this way but it may not have been known or widely enough known.
    All filenames and directory names for files used by Dark must be 30 characters or less (excluding extension).
    FMs/mods containing files or directories with longer names may have worked, but they may as well only appeared
    to have worked and causing not immediately noticeable problems under the hood. While there some exceptions for
    certain types of files, it wouldn't be helpful or wise to go into what those are, instead the rule should simply
    be to NEVER use names longer than 30 characters.
    Are you sure this is not specifically for Thief 2?

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: Formby, NW England
    NewDark is far all Dark Engine games.

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2000
    Location: Paris, France
    Quote Originally Posted by R Soul View Post
    NewDark is far all Dark Engine games.
    Yes I know, I'm looking for T1 olddark cell limits.

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: Formby, NW England
    Sorry, I missed that part. I can't find any info on it either.

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2000
    Location: Paris, France
    No problem. My objective is to keep this mission Olddark compatible for as long as possible. But since I'm hitting the cell limits, and have already simplified most terrain (converted 10-sided cylinders into 8-sided ones...). Also, I've been "playing" with the time value of my brushed quite a bit, and sometimes the results are very encouraging. But I'm still looking for ways to optimise the cell count as much as possible.

    Any ideas?

    I've been considering replacing brush stairs with objects. There are a lot of stairs in my mission, and this would no doubt give me some margin. Has anyone released FMs with stairs as objects? (ex: an object staircase with a solid wedge underneath) If anyone here has experience with such methods, I'd love to hear them.

    Thanks :-)

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2011
    Location: ���&#5671
    Indeed! Dale & Soul Tear released FMs with objects as stairs. You can find these objects in question on the Thief Object Repository:

    - http://spirited-tech.com/thief/2016/...airs-by-elvis/
    - http://spirited-tech.com/thief/2016/...tairs-by-dale/
    - http://spirited-tech.com/thief/2016/...tairs-by-dale/

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: Formby, NW England
    Quote Originally Posted by Sperry View Post
    My objective is to keep this mission Olddark compatible for as long as possible.
    I'm curious about this.

  18. #18
    Desperately Dodgy Moderator
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: Dragonsreach
    Me too. Very, very few players even still have an OldDark install anymore, so I can't imagine what you have to gain by torturing yourself in this way.

  19. #19
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2000
    Location: Paris, France
    Quote Originally Posted by Squadarofl View Post
    Indeed! Dale & Soul Tear released FMs with objects as stairs. You can find these objects in question on the Thief Object Repository:

    - http://spirited-tech.com/thief/2016/...airs-by-elvis/
    - http://spirited-tech.com/thief/2016/...tairs-by-dale/
    - http://spirited-tech.com/thief/2016/...tairs-by-dale/
    I've seen these already, but they're too stylised for what I'm looking for. I'd need object stairs which look like typical brush-stairs. But I'm especially curious as to the aesthetic effect of such a choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yandros View Post
    Very, very few players even still have an OldDark install anymore, so I can't imagine what you have to gain by torturing yourself in this way.
    It's an artistic choice. On the one hand, I'd like to build a FM which even these "very few players" who still have OldDark may play, for whatever reason they might have to still have an Olddark install. On the other hand, I find working in olddark helps keep my work precise, since I can't afford to slack-off. But that's just my subjective opinion. I love what newdark does for FMs, but I don't feel I'm ready to use it yet.
    Last edited by Sperry; 2nd Jul 2018 at 02:45.

  20. #20
    Dóttirin klęšist oft móšur möttli
    Registered: Apr 2015
    Quote Originally Posted by Sperry View Post
    I'm actually having trouble getting over the 24560 cell count. For the record, could this be the T1 old dark cell limit?
    I was curios, that's why I made a test map in DromEd T1 (just many brushes/multibrushed)
    I hit the limit at 24576 WR cells. I couldn't add a single brush.
    Here's the test mis
    http://www.mediafire.com/file/hxwy93...24576.zip/file

    btw, I loaded the test map in DromEd T2. After optimizing, it has 24499 WR cells. More than 500 cells less than DromEd T1. NewDark is better
    Last edited by Unna Oertdottir; 2nd Jul 2018 at 04:49.

  21. #21
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2000
    Location: Paris, France
    Very useful, thanks!!

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: Boston MA
    Quote Originally Posted by Yandros View Post
    Me too. Very, very few players even still have an OldDark install anymore, so I can't imagine what you have to gain by torturing yourself in this way.
    I agree with Yandros.

    I understand wanting to do a classic mission as I make missions using only stock resources. I always build missions much bigger than I intended and using NewDark was a like a gift from heaven. Just the increase in object limit made a huge difference. It seems like you are putting yourself through a lot of extra work. If your mission has a good story and good game play, everyone will enjoy it.

    Either way, I look forward to playintg your mission in the near future. Good luck.

    BBB

  23. #23
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    Location: Texas
    Quote Originally Posted by Unna Oertdottir View Post
    I was curios, that's why I made a test map in DromEd T1 (just many brushes/multibrushed)
    I hit the limit at 24576 WR cells. I couldn't add a single brush.
    Here's the test mis
    http://www.mediafire.com/file/hxwy93...24576.zip/file

    btw, I loaded the test map in DromEd T2. After optimizing, it has 24499 WR cells. More than 500 cells less than DromEd T1. NewDark is better
    I"m just wondering how did you calculate "more than 500 less." The T1 at 24576 is 77 more than 24499 with NewDark. I agree that ND is better even though I occasionally play TG OMs with the TG OldDark simply for the nostalgic feel of OD. For T1 and T2 Fan Missions I would definitely use ND.

  24. #24
    Dóttirin klęšist oft móšur möttli
    Registered: Apr 2015
    Keyboard's doing 0s for no reason

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    Location: Texas
    I can understand that. Mine sometimes won't produce a letter I type.

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