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Thread: The Decline of the Debate and the Rise of the Far Left and Right

  1. #351
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    Nonsense.
    From an entirely USian perspective. The Chinese government is hilt deep in it.

  2. #352
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    I don't know how much this adds to the debate, but as I understood it, for a company to operate in China they have to submit by law to China's online monitoring system. So, if that applies to Blizzard (and I don't know 100% that it does, but I thought I read that it applies to all online intermediaries) then they already agreed to route all online communications to CCP servers via Upstream Collection (devices installed on fiber optic cables designed to just mirror all data passing through and route it to another server). So I mean if you're a company that's already sending personal data and communications of your users (possibly only the ones going through Chinese servers) to a CCP owned server, then this Hong Kong business is, granted still troubling, but kind of peanuts by comparison. You're already heavily compromised; what's a little more on the side so it's not all just a sunk cost? I'm sympathetic to Pyrian's point just to the extent that the only real winning move here is not to play in China.

  3. #353
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    I have no respect for Blizzard as a company. I think Bobby Kotick is the devil himself. I bet he would sell his grandmother if it would make him a profit. He's the type of businessman that would happily help gassing jews, while talking about stockholder-value.

    Something remarkable happened this week in the NBA (American Basketball Association).
    There are 30 teams in the NBA.
    Each team is run by its owner, the General Manager (GM) and the coach.
    Last Friday, the GM of the Houston Rockets (a nobody called Daryl Morey) tweeted: "Fight for Freedom. Stand with Hong Kong."
    A few days later, the news in China picked it up.
    The Chinese complained that Hong Kong is internal business and foreigners should shut up about it.
    The GM removed his tweet. The owner of the Rockets apologized. The GM apologized.
    Not enough for China.
    They wanted the NBA to officially state that Hong Kong is part of China.
    And that the protesters are rioters, China is great, etc, etc.

    This year, or last year, the NBA has signed a contract with China and Chinese companies to
    bring the NBA to china. That contract is worth $1.5 billion over 3 years.
    So the boss of the NBA (commissioner Adam Silver) apologized too.
    He made some ambivalent statements, trying to keep everybody happy.

    China removed all mentioning of the Houston Rockets from the country.
    And I mean: all mentioning of the Houston Rockets.
    The team was removed from the Chinese NBA website. According to China, the NBA now has 29 teams.
    Tencent is the company that has the rights to the NBA for China. They removed all mentioning of the Rockets.
    Private websites and blogs were all filtered to remove anything regarding the Rockets. Fora too.
    The son of the founder of Tencent is owner of another NBA team, the Brooklyn Nets.
    He published an open letter explaining how Hong Kong is chinese, blah blah blah.
    All chinese media, companies, government are issuing the same statements, using the same words, etc.
    This week it is obvious that all Chinese people, all Chinese companies, all Chinese organizations do exactly what the Chinese Communist Party wants them to do or say.
    The Party controls. It did so in the past. But this week it is obvious that that is still the case.
    The Chinese want us to ignore Hong Kong. And if we don't, they'll use their economic power to force us (the west) to do so.

    Now the remarkable thing.
    There was lots of critizing of Adam Silver's weak response. Even lots of politicians weighted in.
    And then the next day, Silver's talk became more firm.
    I guess they realized that whatever they did, China would not be happy unless the NBA would 100% follow China's stance on things.
    I guess it took Silver a few days to get agreement from all NBA owners.
    But then he was very firm: "we regret it if China is unhappy, but we stand behind the right of our employees to express their freedom of speech. If it means that our stance has financial consequences, then so be it".

    Pretty amazing.
    The NBA is accepting to lose a $1.5B contract, just to stand by their principals.

    On the other hand, I think they have no other choice. I think that even if they wanted to please China, they couldn't do it. They can't control everybody associated with the NBA. It's a big clusterfuck for them anyway. This is probably the best thing they can do to handle the situation.


    South Park also had a run-in with the Chinese this week.
    The Chinese got pissed off because of something that was said in a new South Park episode.
    Supposedly South Park is now banned from the Chinese Internet.
    Parker and Stone have issued a statement:
    "Like the NBA, we welcome the Chinese censors into our homes and into our hearts. We too love money more than freedom and democracy. Xi doesn't look like Winnie the Pooh at all. Tune into our 300th episode this Wednesday at 10! Long live the great Communist Party of China. May the autumn's sorghum harvest be bountiful. We good now China?"
    Of course Blizzard doesn't give a fuck. They'll do anything to make a few dollars.
    Last edited by Gryzemuis; 10th Oct 2019 at 15:56.

  4. #354
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    If Tencent owning 4.9% of Activision Blizzard affected Blizzard's decision, why is Epic able to come out and declare they won't ban players for political speech when Tencent owns over 40% of Epic?

  5. #355
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    It's not the ownership, it's the market. Blizzard does a lot of business in China, like, a looooot of business. (Although it remains to be seen how Epic will do with a serious test thereof?)

  6. #356
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    As I understand it, both Fortnite and the Epic Games Store operate in China... but maybe they just don't do enough business yet to be consequential to Tencent?

    Maybe it really is just about the amount of money, but it still seems odd that Epic can do what neither Blizzard nor the NBA can do, despite having a well-known Chinese company with strong ties to the Chinese government owning nearly half their business.

  7. #357
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Epic is majority-owned by Tim Sweeney. He's one of the original founders. And owns 50%+ of the shares. I got a suspicion that Sweeney has all the money that he wants. He doesn't need more. So that makes him financially independent. He might have to worry a bit about the income of Epic, as that would impact his employees. But in the end, if he doesn't want to do something, he can just say "fuck you" to anyone in the world.

    When you are in that situation, it's a lot easier to make decisions.

    Most companies are ran by executives who just work at the company. And maybe have a fraction of a percentage of the stock. Even if some of the original founds are still around, they often have small amounts of stock left. So the company is owned by a large set of shareholders. Individuals and investment companies, etc. In that case it will be much harder to make decisions, because a) you don't know what all the owners want, and b) it'll often be impossible to get all of them on the same page. So large companies will act the way that the executives *think* large companies would behave. And often they think "large companies need to maximize share-holder value, no matter what". So the larger a company gets, the more predictable it will become. But also harder to actually move off the beaten track. That's why I dislike large companies and large organizations. If everything was at a smaller scale, things would more controllable, and less looking like an oil tanker on a crash course.

  8. #358
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    I mean, I whole-heartedly support Sweeney's position on this, but it's an untested position AFAIK. Call me back when his business has a similar high-profile incident.

    That being said, from my perspective, the value involved isn't really a distinguishing semantic factor; China could fine them a penny and it'd still be a government violating the principles of free speech.

  9. #359
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2005
    Location: Watching the puppets thrash.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    He made some ambivalent statements, trying to keep everybody happy.
    I sometimes wonder what is in the mind of a person who believes that the wolf won't bite them.

  10. #360
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    So hey, hell froze over today.


  11. #361
    Not sure how this is a right/left topic.

    But yeah. Seems like for once we all agree on something. I kind of had the scary realization this week that this Hong Kong incidents that we're now in a situation where economic pressure allows a foreign government to dictate the content of American entertainment. Not that it's entirely a new thing (because lord knows both the USA and Israel do that a lot) but I haven't seen anything this brazen that I can recall.


    Meanwhile it looks like Armstrong's forecast for 2020 to be the most violent election in American history is on track to be correct: https://twitter.com/MattFinnFNC/stat...81964508557313

    That's mild compared to other footage where they're mobbing people and beating the shit out of them if they catch them away from the group and screaming "GET THAT FUCKING NAZI!" while chasing people in mobs.



    I came across another story and I'm sharing it hoping to disabuse the boomer mentality that "the military would just sweep in and end a conflict in a matter of days"

    Well...no: https://www.thedailybeast.com/if-tru...military-stand


    Recent polling shows that among military veterans, approval ratings for Trump are higher than among the civilian population. In my experience, the support for Donald Trump among a large segment of the U.S. military is downright cult-like.

    None of this makes sense. Trump is everything the U.S. military should despise: a draft dodger, adulterer, flabby, lazy, unread, a tabloid joke for decades, and TV reality show star. During the 2016 campaign, Trump sought to brandish his non-existent national security chops by insulting Barack Obama’s generals. “I know more about ISIS than the generals do. The generals have been reduced to rubble. They have been reduced to a point where it’s embarrassing for our country.” He hinted that as president, he would fire them. “They’d probably be different generals,” he said at NBC’s pre-election Commander-in-Chief Forum.

    The man with a decades-long public record of immoral and unethical behavior, who had never served in uniform or undertook any public service to his country, tweeted juvenile insults about retired four-star generals like Colin Powell, John Allen, Stanley McChrystal, Michael Hayden and Martin Dempsey. Several of these decorated, battle-hardened generals, were life-long Republicans who had devoted their lives to serving their country. Yet they believed so strongly that Trump was a national security danger they took the extraordinary step of breaking with military tradition to criticize him publicly.

    In normal times, this would have dealt a severe blow to any campaign and made a serious dent in support among the military. But the attacks by the generals, and Trump’s willingness to return fire, only endeared him to the rank and file more.



    The author is a former planner at the Pentagon, House Intelligence Committee member, and special assistant at the


    That is important because it isn't me as some crazy guy. It's leading government officials saying this.

    So yeah. The military might waltz in and end the conflict in a few days. Only problem is they'd be on the side of the grassroots right wing movement.

  12. #362
    https://nypost.com/2019/10/23/texas-...er-transition/

    I know some of you all won't like the source, but the left-leaning outlets have zero coverage. Google News search shows no results from NBC/ABC and the like.



    A few facts on this one before the quote:


    • The mother decided the boy is a girl because he likes Frozen
    • The mother isn't the biological mother
    • The mother has a history of engaging in extremely abusive behavior such as locking the boy in the closet and refusing to let him out until he says that he is a girl.
    • The court has ordered that this boy is to be made to undergo chemical castration at the age of 7 for his transition



    The battle landed in the courts when Georgulas filed suit to restrict her ex-husband’s contact with the kids, require that he refer to James as “Luna” — and keep the boy away from those who refused to do the same.

    Younger responded by petitioning the court for sole custody of the boys, with expert witnesses testifying that James’ identity is still very much in flux.

    “There is still some fluidity in his thinking,” said Dr. Benjamin Albritton, according to the Examiner. “Neither child appears to be depressed, anxious or aggressive . . . [James] gave no indications of other significant psychological difficulties.”

    Witnesses on Younger’s behalf included friends who testified that James always goes by “James” and opts for boys’ clothing whenever he’s in the care of his father — even when girls’ clothing is available, according to The Texan.

    The testimony was in support of Younger’s contention that any desires James may have to be a girl are not his own, but a product of his mother’s influence.

    The jury on Monday ultimately sided with Georgulas, paving the way for her to pursue a possible transition for James.


    This is what it's come to, and everyone claiming this was a "slipper slope" a few years ago didn't understand the fundamental nature of the movement.

  13. #363
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    https://nypost.com/2019/10/23/texas-...er-transition/
    • The court has ordered that this boy is to be made to undergo chemical castration at the age of 7 for his transition
    Citation please supporting this claim. The article you linked does not support this claim - what the jury actually decided was that it was not going to grant the father sole conservatorship.

    Far as I can tell, the mother was pushing for a social transition, not chemical castration.

    Whole affair is basically clusterfuck. Seriously bad blood between the parents - reading that she went after him for pre-marital fraud. Apparently, he forgot to mention that he was married twice before, not once. And that he was in the Army, at some point - which might not have been a big deal, except that he was apparently discharged from the army for admitting to being a homosexual.

  14. #364
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    I've read bits and pieces of this. Not enough to know in exacting detail what's going on and why, but enough to know that the court didn't demand that he get chemically castrated, but that he can go on hormone blockers 4-5 years from now, while he's in the midst of puberty if he so chooses.

    That doesn't make for as dramatic a headline though.

  15. #365
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    [*]The mother isn't the biological mother
    The fuck is that even relevant here? She gave birth to the twins and she has been their parent in any other sense. What does it matter that they aren't genetically related?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    This is what it's come to, and everyone claiming this was a "slipper slope" a few years ago didn't understand the fundamental nature of the movement.
    Uh-uh. Tell us more about the "fundamental nature of the movement" based on hasty conclusions and "facts" presented by dodgy right wing and christian news sites.
    Last edited by Starker; 24th Oct 2019 at 23:42.

  16. #366
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Phatose View Post
    Whole affair is basically clusterfuck. Seriously bad blood between the parents - reading that she went after him for pre-marital fraud. Apparently, he forgot to mention that he was married twice before, not once. And that he was in the Army, at some point - which might not have been a big deal, except that he was apparently discharged from the army for admitting to being a homosexual.
    Yeah, based on the few sources I read and a court judgement I skimmed through, it appears the father misrepresented himself in various ways, lying about his education (said he has a PhD), income (supposedly 150k), and various other things. On the other hand, she seems to have on her side the child's teachers, therapist, and basically anyone else who has contact with the child. And it seems there has never been any plan to have the child take hormone blockers and this is a claim made solely by the father, who seems to be a pathological liar. Basically, looks like most of it is just plain old right-wing asshattery of blowing things out of all proportion for ideological reasons:

    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/cour...f-abbott-cruz/

    [...]
    Gov. Greg Abbott, U.S. Sen. Ted Cruz, U.S. Rep. Dan Crenshaw, and other politicians have latched on to reports in conservative media highlighting the father’s contention that the mother intended to force the child to undergo hormone therapy and puberty blockers to change the child’s biological gender.

    In her ruling Thursday, Judge Kim Cooks noted there was never an order for the child to undergo such treatment.

    Additionally, records show that [the child's mother] Georgulas asked the court to require mutual written consent, which would ensure she and Younger agree on a course of action before the child undergoes any such treatment. Her request also noted the child “is not yet at the age where treatment with hormonal expressions, puberty blockers, and/or transgendered reassignment surgery is medically considered.”

    [...]

    The judge ruled Thursday there was never any abuse of the children but ordered that the family undergo therapy with their children because of trauma they may have faced due to the publicity surrounding the case.
    [...]

  17. #367
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    That's nowhere near scandalous enough, Starker. Tony's embellishments make this story so much more entertaining. It really gives you something to get mad about, you know?

  18. #368
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    I just find it funny that the one legit example of "leftists stifling free speech and debate" in this thread that hasn't turned out to be either bogus or misrepresenting the situation or even the complete opposite of what happened comes from Pyrian, namely China applying pressure to censor its critics.

  19. #369
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Looked some more into the story and I have to say, I did not expect how messed up this actually is and what a massive injustice is being perpetuated here by the right-wing ideological outrage machine. Here's a video of someone going through the court documents and witness testimony and exposing the real story behind the situation:


  20. #370
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    I just find it funny that the one legit example of "leftists stifling free speech and debate" in this thread that hasn't turned out to be either bogus or misrepresenting the situation or even the complete opposite of what happened comes from Pyrian, namely China applying pressure to censor its critics.
    Since when are the Chinese government "leftists"?
    I mean, sure, they call themselves "communist", but they're an authoritarian dictatorship, that's not my idea of "left".

  21. #371
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless Voice View Post
    Since when are the Chinese government "leftists"?
    I mean, sure, they call themselves "communist", but they're an authoritarian dictatorship, that's not my idea of "left".
    You can have an authoritarian left. What do you think Stalinist Communism was?

    Though I wouldn't call China so extreme left these days. With their recent expansion into corporatism, private ownership, and stoking the growth of a middle class, they've been moving away from the extreme end of the spectrum towards the center. As weird as it is to say, their current economic model actually looks more like what the Fascists envisioned: self made giants of industry working hand in hand with an all powerful single party state for the glory of their great nation.
    Last edited by Renzatic; 26th Oct 2019 at 20:35.

  22. #372

  23. #373
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    How Close Is the U.S. to Civil War?
    "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no".

    (And to be precise, in this context, the answer is: "not close at all").

  24. #374
    We shall see how you feel after 2020 and 2024. There’s numerous academics far more prestigious and smart than you or I saying that the country is now more divided than at any time since the civil war and a good number of them are saying it’s likely....which is a bit more dramatic than my prediction (widespread, violent, partisan civil disturbances) but that is what they’re predicting.

    Anyways I think we’ve found the way for you guys to trigger the right: just ask a mildly uncomfortable question about Israel foreign aid.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/catholic_...4591330230273?


    Charlie Kirk’s flip into unhinged rage is remarkable. TP USA has now been going on for days ranting about this and going on all out war against Fuentes. They even fired someone for being photographed in the same room as Fuentes.


    If you wanna BTFO of the right just drop the masks and ask them about the USS Liberty. They’ll do the rest of your work for you after that.

  25. #375
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    We shall see how you feel after 2020 and 2024.
    Do you think I care about the US elections ? For all I care, Putin can win them. It's a minor inconvenience when the yanks elect another crypto-fascist as president. Lots of crap in the news again. We've seen Nixon, an old senile man, Papa-Bush and Cheney/Rumsfeld as presidents. And now Drumpf. Do you think we care when you elect Trump for another 4 years ?

    And there won't be a civil war. Your police is armed like the military. And if that's not enough, they'll get backup from the military itself. Any serious rioting will be ended like it's Tiananmen Square all over again, but this time in the US. (Note: I said "serious rioting". Like citizens with guns in the streets shooting at each other, at the police, etc). But most likely scenario: people will write more unpleasant crap on Twitter and Facebook. In that respect, Twitter and Facebook are godsends. No Kristal-Nacht in the US, because social media are such a great stress-relief. Their therapeutic function is much better than lynching negroes and buring jewish stores.

    USS Liberty ? Dude. I had to look at wikipedia. That happened in 1967. Who cares ? You are really fishing with a lens to find stuff to get worked-up over, right ? Maybe you should stop looking at the web, at your favorite websites, at facebook/twitter. Just go outside your house, smell the fresh air, have a coffee on a terrace, drive a bicycle, relax. No news at all. Just for a month or so, to start with. I think it will greatly improve your life and your state of mind.

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