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Thread: The Decline of the Debate and the Rise of the Far Left and Right

  1. #426
    I've heard some information now, that I'd put in the "semi credible" category of being worth paying attention to but not accepting as fact yet, that Northam convened a secret committee to determine a way to cut off all electronic communications in 2nd Amendment sanctuary counties in Virginia in order to carry out gun confiscations.

    Drumpf supporters need guns because we beat them up cuz they're bad!...
    So we've gone from "It's bullshit that we beat up Trump supporters!" to "We beat up Trump supporters and it's justified because they're bad!".


    Have you noticed how the only person here who has experienced war is the one warning against escalating violence whereas the people whose only experience with violence is through a screen are the ones cheering it on.

    But go right ahead. If what you are advocating for continues the end result is NOT going to be the idiotic, ignorant fantasy that the army just goes in and cleans up resistance in a few days.


    Open Question: what exactly do you all think is going to be the end result of continuing to escalate violence against right wingers? What will it accomplish?

    We already know some of you think Trump supporters deserve to be killed, because that's the implication when you call someone a Nazi (Yes yes...I know you'll try to weasel out of it but you're not fucking fooling anyone). I'm asking Pragmatically, how are these events going to work out and what will the second and third order consequences be?
    Last edited by Tony_Tarantula; 25th Dec 2019 at 14:29.

  2. #427
    Spoiler:

    95% + chance the end result is the entire country except possibly major metropolitan areas will be under the control of a nationalist right-wing regime when the dust settles. This guy claims to be a "red team planner" but it doesn't really matter if he's bullshitting or not because it's relatively easy to fact check every claim he makes: https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/..._team_planner/. This is because the nationalist or "nazi" crowd as the dumber of you call them have all the guns, are the majority of the police and military, and control almost all logistics. The only advantage the left/establishment has is control over technology and financial infrastructure.


    Point by Point

    Here are the top ten issues that came up:

    The US power grid can be taken down by a series of “surgical strikes” with the exception of the Texas grid. By surgical strikes, I mean a few marksmen (US army-tier Marksmen–the minimum requirement) hitting certain spots on the grid would fuck a lot of the military and government because they need the grid more than Bubba and his friends do. Additionally, while all government agencies have backup generators, they will be hard pressed dealing with the resultant looting and other madness that would come with power outages. This would effectively create another front for the military. It would also turn the people against the government more quickly and paralyze the government’s propaganda machine. Worse still–the key points of the US power grid are publicly obtainable information, and not only are the points too many to be effectively guarded, they are not guarded anyway.

    The estimated desertion rate in case of a civil war is 75% in the case of a left-wing president. 50% of that would be assumed to immediately betray the president. The remaining (treasonous) military would be fighting its own. Yet another front created in the war. Additionally, there is an assumed 25-50% desertion or outright betrayal rate in three letter government agencies (FBI, CIA, NSA, ATC, TSA, etc.). Additionally, it is assumed that 5% of the initial 50% betrayers would stay in their job and become saboteurs. 10% of that 50% would contain key information that would be of critical danger to the US government. Of that 10%, 1% would be able to deliver that information to the US’ foreign enemies. What you should get from this is that the second the United States government declares war on its own is the second it ceases to exist as the state we know it.

    “Tea baggers,” “right-wing extremists,” and “oath keepers” which are considered untrained racists who aren’t “good with a gun” often are A) veterans who now have more time to have fun at the range, sometimes more than some Army units or Marine units. In addition to previous military training, B) often camp and do other outdoor activities–more than many in the military do, as the focus has gone away from field exercises, and C) often have better equipment–outside of armor and heavy weapons–than the military. However, C) is kind of irrelevant because many of the places in which these people could hide would make the kind of war the US fights with the equipment they use pointless.

    Outside influence is a huge problem. Russia has already stated they would back a Texas separatist movement, and right now we already have enough problem keeping Islam in check. The second the US has to fight in a “civil war” is the second it becomes a proxy war between NATO and whoever wants to mess with America. While America has amazing nuclear and air defense, if it comes to a civil war you have to assume that in a best cast scenario the US military is going to be operating at 50% capacity at best. Shit would go down. Hard. And fast. And if Russia–spoiler alert: one of the best militaries in the world at fighting in an urban environment–sent trainers and helpers to rebels, you can reliably bet that they would also possibly deliver weapons to them. So instead of fighting “Timmy TeaBagger,” you are fighting “Timmy TeaBagger who is buddies with Vlad.”

    A civil war is not just the US versus the rebels. There will be looting. There will be rioting. Cities will burn. The National Guard cannot fight both the rebels and rioters in a city that would also cut off their supplies. Additionally, if you don’t think that the rebels will send in instigators into the cities–or worse, stand alone actors (A Lone Wolf on steroids. Think Timothy McVeigh, but instead of one van they have a whole fleet of them. A good movie example would be Bane)–you would be mistaken. If the US government cannot even help its own people, why would its own people support the remaining (treasonous) military? Worse yet, if someone emptied out prisons (There are more prisoners in the US than there are people in the entire Chinese Army), you would have more crime than the police could ever handle.

    Logistics and infrastructure in the US are crumbling and failing. Any war fought against a rebellion in the US would be a logistical nightmare, even before the rebels started going full Al-Qaida and putting IEDs in the road. A retired general who was contracting with us on the team said, “The only thing holding together the US’ infrastructure is duct tape and the will of the Department of Transportation. And often enough, there isn't enough duct tape.” Your most loyal cities to the US government, as we polled, are also the most logistically easy to cut off. NYC? San Fran? L.A.? D.C.? Baltimore? Most of them require crossing water to enter, from certain directions. Most of them have critical airports. Some of them have critical ocean ports. If anything happened to just TWO of the cities on the list, it would create a logistical clusterfuck.

    Your “Johnny Reb” and “Timmy TeaBagger” states (i.e., “red” states) all have something most of your “oh so progressive,” “Aren’t we so European,” “Oh my god, we are just like Sweden,” blue states don’t. Blues are mainly consumer states. Reds are producer states. Urban areas don’t have farms. The second that shit goes down, realize a lot of those blue areas are likely to starve. In a civil war scenario, we predicted that at least 10,000 people would die of starvation if the war was not finished in a year. The numbers get worse after that. Or better, rather, for the country after the war.

    The US has way too many choke points, and the government forces would often be on the wrong side of them. This ties into the logistical nightmare, but it also has to do with an odd phenomena. Liberals like to live near the ocean. Many of the dividers of the country, like the Rocky Mountains, the Mississippi River, Appalachia, the Missouri River (fun fact: the biggest choke point for the US government is in Missouri) are red state areas. Sure, air travel is a thing, but a majority of the US government's needs would have to travel by ground. Even still, many of the major airports are outside of the city. Of course, the US would use military base air fields, but if civil war did break out… which bases would be safe? Which ones would have fallen to the deserters?

    PR Nightmare. Every rebel killed on CNN would be spun as “the US government killed X Civilians today in a strike” on foreign news and pirate media not owned by the government. That is–as pointed out earlier–if the US media could even function in a civil war or uprising. Your “rebel scum” know that the main thing that holds together the US–nay life in the US as we know it–is the 24 hour news cycle and the media. The second it's gone, you are going to have urban anarchy. If you are from America, can you imagine a day without TV, newspaper, or Internet? Your average urban youth can’t. If you don’t think that isn’t going to cause rioting, you must have a real high regard for how much restraint they have. Assume in a civil war that your ability to talk to the people is compromised. Also assume that in the case of a civil war that rebels may know how to monitor conversations like the US does, as there are manuals online on how to do so.

    This one is either 1 or 10, depending on who is asked. The US will never nuke its own. The second it does, they have lost the civil war and other countries will come to “liberate” the US from its own “repressive regime.” Additionally, if any general, minuteman, nuke tech, or nuke sub captain decided to side with the rebellion, the US government is immediately SOL.

  3. #428
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    So we've gone from "It's bullshit that we beat up Trump supporters!" to "We beat up Trump supporters and it's justified because they're bad!".
    WHAT! IS! THIS! HUMAN! EMOTION! YOU! CALL! LOVE!?!?!?!

    Merry Christmas, everyone!

  4. #429
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    What you gonna do -- some people spend the Christmas time getting pleasantly tipsy from glühwein -hic- and watching old TV shows, others prefer to post years old Turner Diaries fan-fiction.

  5. #430
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Well at least Tony made me think of Jesus this Christmas. I read only a part of it before I thought JESUS CHRIST.

  6. #431
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: 1, Rotation: 0
    Nice blue skyboxes, but wrong forum, Tony.

  7. #432
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    I found this amusing.


    Dearest Mother,

    My time here in civil war II: Revenge of the Trump, has been trying. General Kid Rock has failed us and now our unit is entrenched in a Hobby Lobby on the border of Colorado and Mexico. Our rations of Chik-fil-a and Papa Johns are running low. We wait with baited breath for president Trump's bone spurs to heal so that so that he may ride in, like the majestic hero that he is, and save our wretched rabble.

    Many in our unit have caught windmill nose cancer. The horrid smell of covfefe lingers in the air. It is truly a disheartening affair.

    Send my love to uncle daddy and my 13 siblings and hold tight in your faith in the MAGA and white Jesus.

    Your son,

    Matthew

  8. #433
    Google whistle-blower Dr. Robert Epstein who exposed Google's 2016 and 2018 election interference has announced on Twitter two days ago that his wife has died from injuries sustained in a car accident.





    https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...h-in-escondido

    A 29-year-old Vista woman was seriously injured Monday morning when her pickup spun out across a rain-slick Escondido freeway and into the path of an oncoming big rig, authorities said.
    It happened around 8:05 a.m. on north Interstate 15 near state Route 78, California Highway Patrol spokesman Officer Mark Latulippe said in a statement.

    It was unclear why the woman lost control of her Ford Ranger, but the truck “slid out of control ... and slid across the lanes into the path” of a Freightliner semi hauling two dump trailers, Latulippe said.

    The trucker was unable to avoid hitting the Ranger and struck the passenger side of the pickup, Latulippe said. A 19-year-old Santee woman in a Toyota 4Runner was unable to avoid the nearby collision in front of her and struck the Ranger.


    TOP GOOGLE WHISTLEBLOWER’S WIFE DIES IN TRAGIC CAR CRASH
    Epstein’s unfortunate tragedy comes after he testified before Congress in July about Google’s election meddling using sophisticated algorithms and subversive policies aimed at swaying millions of votes in favor of Democrats.

    Notably, Epstein is a Democrat who supported and voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016.
    [video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb0QG3Ld-pg[/video]

  9. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    What you gonna do -- some people spend the Christmas time getting pleasantly tipsy from glühwein -hic- and watching old TV shows, others prefer to post years old Turner Diaries fan-fiction.
    So you're going to lecture me, someone who has actually been on the "front lines" of an asymmetric conflict, that this is just fan fiction?

    Go ahead. Keep clinging to your fool's fantasy that everything's just going to be fine because the military is going to go in and mop up those right wingers inside the space of a week (just like how the US won Iraq in a month and Afghanistan was over in a few weeks).

  10. #435
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    This is getting stupid.

    Rather, I should say it's getting considerably stupider. It's been stupid for awhile now.

  11. #436
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2004
    Would you say this has been a decline of the debate?

  12. #437
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    More like it's long since declined, and we've been wallowing about on the bottom ever since.

  13. #438
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    So you're going to lecture me, someone who has actually been on the "front lines" of an asymmetric conflict, that this is just fan fiction?

    Go ahead. Keep clinging to your fool's fantasy that everything's just going to be fine because the military is going to go in and mop up those right wingers inside the space of a week (just like how the US won Iraq in a month and Afghanistan was over in a few weeks).
    OK, boomer.

  14. #439
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    I really don't think Tony understands how unhinged he has become. I understand most right wingers are prone to swallow conspiracy and some constantly look for rage inducing articles which support their preconceptions but it's gotten out of hand. I'm worried for him. If all right wingers were that close to the edge then I suppose groups could band together attempting a self fulfilling prophecy and start murdering people. Right wing media and nutso websites could have them come out to murder ANTIFA who stand up to the klan rallies and instead of Charlotte there could be larger murders of opposition to klan. I don't see any way for that to translate to full scale war unless the klan starts murdering the police who will have to by law arrest them. They claim to be for police so they would have to go against their own stated principles but they have done that before. If they picked a city with a large African American police force I suppose they could justify it to their faithful.

    Maybe with Trump working up more hatred every day and right wing media stoking the fires of hate they could get a Hitler style takeover started. What's that new right wingnut news Youtube keeps peddling? Epoch Times? If that lunacy could get a lot of eyes and crank up the loon slowly enough not to lose too many. I just can't see it going far in this age of actual information. Maybe the Jews couldn't see it either before Crystal Nacht.

    NAH. I gotta believe even most right wingers are not that batshit crazy.

  15. #440
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    But, but... an anonymous copypaste post on r/concpiracy said so. The moment they get an election result they don't like, right-wingers are going to start murdering leftists and there's nothing anyone can do about it, because they are so well-trained and organised. Just look at any previous events where the right has gathered to unite. And blue states like California don't have farms, so they are all going to starve to death even before the right-wing murder squads get to them. Also, Russia will definitely help the insurgents, but NATO and the EU won't help leftists, because it would look bad.

  16. #441
    Tocky
    I really don't think Tony understands how unhinged he has become. I understand most right wingers are prone to swallow conspiracy and some constantly look for rage inducing articles which support their preconceptions but it's gotten out of hand. I'm worried for him. If all right wingers were that close to the edge then I suppose groups could band together attempting a self fulfilling prophecy and start murdering people. Right wing media and nutso websites could have them come out to murder ANTIFA who stand up to the klan rallies and instead of Charlotte there could be larger murders of opposition to klan. I don't see any way for that to translate to full scale war unless the klan starts murdering the police who will have to by law arrest them. They claim to be for police so they would have to go against their own stated principles but they have done that before. If they picked a city with a large African American police force I suppose they could justify it to their faithful.
    I'm exactly as unhinged as The Atlantic Magazine: https://www.theatlantic.com/press-re...-issue/601795/

    I'm also not the one saying people should be beaten up "Cuz they're bad!".

    Have you actually been following what's been going in Virginia?

    Of course not.

    https://www.npr.org/local/305/2019/1...can-it-do-that


    Virginia is literally preparing to send in the military to round up law officials who refuse to enforce gun bans

    That is actually happening.


    I'm NOT talking about the bizarre scenarios you're projecting in your head. I'm much more worried about some kind of mass civil unrest and the most likely flashpoint would be gun confiscations because that plays directly into right-wing "from my cold dead hands" fantasies.

    It's also something that the American left is guaranteed to do. As soon as Trump is gone they're immediately going to go into "punish" mode and try to inflict pain on the people they view as being responsible for Trump. One of the first things they'll do is pass sweeping, aggressive gun bans with felony penalties attached.


    But, but... an anonymous copypaste post on r/concpiracy said so. The moment they get an election result they don't like, right-wingers are going to start murdering leftists and there's nothing anyone can do about it, because they are so well-trained and organised.
    That's what the left does. There were....all of ZERO acts of rioting and violence because of the impeachment.

    The right also isn't well-trained and organized. However, because military, police, and veterans are predominantly right wing they have the capacity to get that way very quickly.


    Just look at any previous events where the right has gathered to unite. And blue states like California don't have farms, so they are all going to starve to death even before the right-wing murder squads get to them. Also, Russia will definitely help the insurgents, but NATO and the EU won't help leftists, because it would look bad.
    NATO and the EU might help leftists. That said I've worked with those NATO and EU militaries and most of what they did in Afghanistan was sit on their asses inside larger, safe bases. If you look at battlefield reports between them and Russia there's little doubt which force is more effective. What's far, far, more probable is China coming in to support the American establishment given the strong economic incentive China would have to maintaining status quo.
    Last edited by Tony_Tarantula; 3rd Jan 2020 at 11:08.

  17. #442
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    I'm also not the one saying people should be beaten up "Cuz they're bad!".
    I also am not Vae. Weird.

    Also you don't read the articles you link.

    Also law enforcement that does not follow the law should be fired for not doing their jobs.

    Also the rest was batshit.

    Dude you need to get a Russian paycheck for pushing this stuff. They pay for just this sort of stuff. No shit.

  18. #443
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Tocky View Post
    Also law enforcement that does not follow the law should be fired for not doing their jobs.
    You don't want to make victims out of these people, Tocky. It feeds into their persecution complex.

    Though speaking of which, I can't help but think it funny when some random dude with a room full of guns talks about how he's being persecuted more than the Irish were during the days before we fought the war for states rights.
    Last edited by Renzatic; 4th Jan 2020 at 00:54.

  19. #444
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    But, but, what about all these murderous lefties? They are definitely coming for your guns!

    Never mind that the right has a near monopoly on domestic terrorism and mass murder in the US and it is only one side who's talking about a civil war if elections don't go their way:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/28/u...rumpstock.html

    [...]
    Mark Villalta said he had been stockpiling firearms, in case Mr. Trump’s re-election is not successful.

    “Nothing less than a civil war would happen,” Mr. Villalta said, his right hand reaching for a holstered handgun. “I don’t believe in violence, but I’ll do what I got to do.”

  20. #445
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Honestly, it all depends upon what Trump says during his concession speech in the event that he loses the election. If he cedes gracefully, there won't be anything to worry about. If he takes the podium, screaming about rigged elections and, well...

    ...you know, it might be a good idea to just stock up on bottled water and canned goods before November. I don't think there's gonna be a mass uprising or anything, but there will be some shit.

  21. #446
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Quote Originally Posted by Tocky View Post
    NAH. I gotta believe even most right wingers are not that batshit crazy.
    Here in Italy they actually are that batshit crazy.

  22. #447
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Nov 1, if you are in a blue district, wear a blue hat. If you are in a red district, wear a red hat. Carry one of each.

  23. #448
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2001
    Location: 0x0x0
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    But, but, what about all these murderous lefties? They are definitely coming for your guns!

    Never mind that the right has a near monopoly on domestic terrorism and mass murder in the US and it is only one side who's talking about a civil war if elections don't go their way:
    The NY Times sends a reporter 2600 miles to find a crowd of 100 right wing nutters whose keynote speaker is somebody no one has ever heard of. Oh the horror this represents! Did they have a bunch of those scary Home Depot Tiki Torches too?

  24. #449
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    You should buy a bunch of those tiki torches from your local Home Depot, Sly. Show those leftists by triggering their tender feelings!

  25. #450
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    You should buy a bunch of those tiki torches from your local Home Depot, Sly. Show those leftists by triggering their tender feelings!
    And a white hood?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wikl6tJEPh0

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