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Thread: The Decline of the Debate and the Rise of the Far Left and Right

  1. #176
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    Anyway, getting back on topic, I've now come to think that one of the reasons why the extremist views have become so popular lately is because moderate people refuse to even acknowledge that they exist.

    Moderate people are looking at the alt-right and saying that they are just the normal right, which in turn is making the alt-right seem "normal" and mainstream.

    There's confusion between right-wing political opinions, such as wanting less government regulation or fewer social initiatives, and alt-right beliefs of bigotry and hatred.

    I don't personally agree with the right, but equating their conservative opinions with those of the alt-right is a gross disservice to the normal right.

    And, once that is done, you get moderates who are actually defending the alt-right under the auspices of freedom of speech, because they see them as one end of the political spectrum, rather than anathema to the entire system.

    I'd imagine that the extreme left are the same, but again, I haven't really had much experience with them personally. They certainly exist here, but don't seem to be particularly mainstream.


    In any case, I'm reminded of the old adage: "all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
    Last edited by Nameless Voice; 16th Sep 2018 at 17:36.

  2. #177
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by icemann View Post
    I think both far left and far right are just as bad as each other. It's just that the media seems to be on the side of the left, and thus when things happen from that side it for the most part does not make it onto TV or mentioned. And yet when it's far right it does.
    What about that Weinstein thing, though? He went on Tucker Carlson and testified to Congress and the students protesting the conditions at the university were almost universally eviscerated in the media and targeted and harassed by "free speech protectors". Who was shut up and who was heard here?

    https://psmag.com/education/the-real...rgreen-college

    Right-wing media personalities like to present left-wing students—especially black left-wing students—as dangerous totalitarians, threatening democracy. But the truth is that students have limited power, and limited ability to make themselves heard. Right-wing media has been eager to amplify Weinstein. In contrast, students at Evergreen have struggled to get their stories out. Weinstein left Evergreen with a generous pay-off, and now has a successful Patreon and enjoys flattering coverage in the New York Times. Students on campus, meanwhile, lost anti-racist programming, and faced far right harassment, without any tangible recompense.

    Despite threats and administrative hostility, these students refused to let the Day of Absence die. Still, that shouldn't obscure the way that Carlson, Weinstein, and others misrepresented the nature of the event, encouraged harassment, and stirred up protest in a nearly successful effort to suppress anti-racism on campus. That seems a whole lot like a curtailment of free speech—unless, of course, you have convinced yourself that students don't have anything to say.
    Last edited by Starker; 16th Sep 2018 at 19:02.

  3. #178
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless Voice View Post
    There's confusion between right-wing political opinions, such as wanting less government regulation or fewer social initiatives, and alt-right beliefs of bigotry and hatred.
    There's confusion within right-wing political opinion since less regulation usually means less regulation of the shit I want to do and more regulation of the shit people I don't like want to do. But maybe that's not so much confusion as obfuscation.

  4. #179
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2011
    Location: Wild and Wooly West of Ireland
    You have only to look at the sad, protracted history of Northern Ireland to see that dialogue is infinitely more desirable than tribal politics. Rabid ideology on both sides fanned the flames of sectarian hatred there for decades. Growing up in Southern Ireland it often felt as if the events that engulfed N.I would consume the whole island.
    Few families were untouched by this horror, recruitment for the IRA was rife in my home town. Families fled from the North to settle in the South with tales of terror and intimidation. It was a black pit of resentment and tit for tat killings, unspeakable acts of violence meted out with patriotic fervour on both sides of the divide. Both felt justified, as the ideologically possessed often feel justified when they put that ideology into murderous practise.
    Protestant/Catholic, right and left. Get into a mindless mob and act out your resentment, your oppression, your desire for the preservation of the status quo, whatever. Just see how far that progresses.
    Last edited by Purgator; 17th Sep 2018 at 17:31.

  5. #180
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by icemann View Post
    I think both far left and far right are just as bad as each other. It's just that the media seems to be on the side of the left
    You're quite wrong here.

    The far right believe in supremacy of a race or ethnic group, to the detriment of all others. The most extreme version of this is genocide.

    The left believe in political correctness, the exact opposite of the detriment of others.

    The media are "on the side" of the left because it's far more palatable and appears to have laudable aims, despite the results we're seeing now.

  6. #181
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Dr Weinstein's experience, and that of people like Mary Spellman (former Dean of Claremont McKenna College), are just a demonstration of the idiocy we've allowed to grow.

    In the UK a few years ago people used to complain about "political correctness gone mad".

    Well, it's happened.

  7. #182
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    I don't think the left and right extremes are the same, and the genuine white supremacists on the right are currently more of a threat than revolutionary communists and syndicalists on the left. However, they don't seem to be a particularly big threat, numbers wise. How many people are showing up at their rallies, a couple dozen? The antifa aren't a big threat either. Both groups receive disproportionate attention, which makes them look more legitimate and powerful and helps their recruiting. The same thing happened with the Islamic State, where media sensationalism became their best recruiting tool.

    And I still support basic human rights including freedom of speech for everyone, even white supremacists, Islamists, anarchists, and the Westboro Baptists.

    On the topic of far-left/far-right equivalence, I see some broad similarities. The people on both extremes want radical change or to impose their version of utopia, they both view things simplistically and in terms of absolutes, their ideas and arguments don't hold up to critical scrutiny, and they are often more interested in action than discussion.

    Political correctness was destined to produce a backlash. Regardless of whether the "correct" views are laudable, it's a system to impose groupthink. If unchecked, it's a threat to liberal democracy.

  8. #183
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    I'd like to think that these kinds of thinking aren't a big threat numbers-wise, but then I see neo-Nazi parties in Germany and Sweden reaching 17-20% of the votes in elections, which makes me wonder how many of them there really are.

  9. #184
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Same goes for the opposite far left groups. The difference is that you don't hear about them.

  10. #185
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    You're placing a lot of faith in this hypothetical invisibility. There's a whole well-funded right-wing media apparatus. The quality of the stuff that the they dredge up to tar the left wing strongly suggests to me that it's scraping the barrel to find anything even remotely equivalent to, say, President Trump. Which may be beating a dead horse BUT HE'S PRESIDENT which by definition makes him MAINSTREAM. The problem with the discourse isn't the extremists at all, left or right. It's the fairly "mainstream" right. Not all of the right, maybe not even most - but enough to nominate and elect a president, which ain't exactly nothin'.

    Also, while civility is kind of the main point in this thread, I think B.S. deserves a mention. There's a lot of B.S. on the left. But there's a lot more on the right, and once again the president himself is deeply invested in the nonsense. The value of civil discourse drops when one side is just B.S.'ing, and even more when both are.

  11. #186
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Yeah, unless Iceman doesn't get Fox or any of the many republitalk radio shows, then I don't quite get the "don't hear about them". Hell, even Christian radio is nothing but a diatribe against anything left. They have perverted religion and forsaken the message of Christ for one of hate toward charity for the poor or forgiveness except the perpetual kind for their dear leader in the white house. Plenty of hate on those programs that seek every possible way to take a stab at the left.

  12. #187
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    I'm curious as to where extremist-left political parties are gaining power, because I haven't heard of any.

    Now, we do have some dodgy left parties here in Ireland.
    There's Sinn Fein, though the problem with them is that they were originally the political arm of the IRA, and are extreme nationalists, rather than that they're too extremely left.

    And then there's the Anti-Austerity Alliance, who mostly seem to be made up of people who don't want to pay for using excessive amounts of water, and have harassed our president (who comes from the left) for not being left enough. They probably count as extremist left, but they're tiny.

  13. #188
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2011
    Location: Wild and Wooly West of Ireland

  14. #189
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless Voice View Post
    I'm curious as to where extremist-left political parties are gaining power, because I haven't heard of any.
    UK Labour party? Heard of them??

  15. #190
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    The British Labour party are actually left now, after decades of Blairites selling out the party's principles and turning it into a centre-right party.
    They actually want to invest in social infrastructure and take some control of public services back from private businesses.
    How is that extremist left?

    They're not proposing the guillotining CEOs or reclaiming the wealth of the rich.

    What is your definition of an extremist left policy?

  16. #191
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Becoming so extreme lefty handwringing that you've become anti-semitic, that's what.

  17. #192
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    Oh, don't even get me started on that media circus.

  18. #193
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Yeah. When you're so liberal you can't tell which murderers are the bad ones.

  19. #194
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Or whether the murder was "bad" or not.

  20. #195
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    Who said anything about murderers?

    British politicians tend towards being racists, that's hardly news. They voted for Brexit, after all. I personally dislike Corbyn because of some of his stances, but I wouldn't call him some kind of "extremist left" as a mirror to the neo-Nazi parties springing up all over Europe.

    I was just commenting on how the racism in the Labour party gets reported ten times more than the racism in the other parties on the British news. I still don't think anyone has quite proposed murdering all of the people from one or another racial group yet.

    Also, instances of racism inside a party are not actually official party policies, which was what I originally asked about.

  21. #196
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Was just talking hypothetically.

  22. #197
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    I'm no fan of Corbyn. I had a little hope for him a couple of years ago, but he squandered that by being so ineffectual as opposition. He is certainly by no means "extreme leftist", and if you think he is you need to read more about what that term actually means. He's a fairly moderate leftist, he's just been coached to amp up his rhetoric and TALK LOUDER. It doesn't mean he's saying more. Certainly, more left that Blair, but then again, so is pretty much everything else. Extreme? Don't be a idiot. Read a book.

  23. #198
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    He has a Maoist bicycle, though:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/m...ch-9ds5783n35h

    The new Labour leader treated himself to a black cab at his home yesterday, abandoning the Chairman Mao-style bicycle his neighbours always see him riding. Other than that, Jeremy Corbyn treated much of the weekend like any other.
    Last edited by Starker; 21st Sep 2018 at 04:18.

  24. #199
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Corbyn isn't extreme left because he's not particularly ideological. The reason for that is because he's not very intellectual, and the reason he's not very intellectual is because he's a little bit thick. His socialism is an instinctive, side-with-the-underdog type of socialism, which is why he comes across as very principled, and also why he has an unfortunate habit of consorting with Irish Republican terrorists and Islamists who want to commit genocide against the Jews. The folk in his inner circle, like chief of staff Seumas Milne (a literal Stalinist) and shadow chancellor John McDonnell are much cleverer than Jeremy and, consequently, that much more dangerous.

    Switching to the other wing, and the fruitcakes of UKIP seem to be intent on copying the tactics of successful far right parties on the continent. Today they are calling for Muslim-only prisons and leader Gerard Batten wants to admit racist criminal Tommy Robinson to the party. Even the arch-gammon himself, former leader Nigel Farage, has criticised UKIP's current trajectory as going too far, which says it all.

  25. #200
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2003
    Location: Location, Location
    What the hell is a "Chairman Mao-style bicycle"?

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