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Thread: TDP20AC Mission — Rose Garden (11/30/2018)

  1. #101
    New Member
    Registered: Sep 2014
    Location: Finland
    Thanks, I will check that!

  2. #102
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Quote Originally Posted by fortuni View Post
    I found it impossible to jump onto the transformers that's why I ended up using a couple of sacks found in the south house below Humprey's mansion balcony.
    IIRC, it's also possible to do it without getting on top of the transformers first, you just need to be a bit accurate with a diagonal jump.

    I mean, everybody knows that diagonal jumps go farther than ones straight forward, right? Right???

  3. #103
    New Member
    Registered: Sep 2015
    I've completed this mission few days ago on expert taking my time and ghosting as much as I could so my final in-game time was over 6 hours.

    I love its structure - linear for the most part with more branches opening up as you go, and with a really clever and intricate level design which sometimes made me feel confused anyway. It was great to come back to the starting area after exploring half of the map, but this time looking at it from a completely different perspective high on the rooftops.

    The atmosphere was very good overall but it was especially strong after ringing the bells and at the garden part. Seeing the statues from the thumbnail for the first time gave me chills.

    The side-stories were pretty interesting, giving some insight into the nobility living in the area. The highlight though definitely was realizing majority of the readables I've collected are connected to one and the same event :O

    Sadly the mission is unfortunately missing a proper ending. The party was so neatly set up, especially with Cutty's list but it ends up being underwhelming and the conclusion feels rushed. I'm guessing the time-constraint is the main culprit here.

    Despite that it's still probably my favorite mission from the contest.

  4. #104
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Great (if extremely challenging) mission.

    I've now completed it at Hard after over 3 hours.

    A couple questions I still haven't figured out:

    spoiler:
    Where do I use the jail key to get to Pud and free him? Hints given thus far haven't worked for me.

    And, (possibly) related to that:

    How to do I break into Cistern Court (get into the area behind the still-closed gate)?


    Update: Figured out Cistern Court. There's a high area you reach from a semi-hidden Hammer area where there's a roof you climb over as a route that eventually leads you to Rose Garden. Put that roof behind you; you're facing a court from high above and a nobleman's apartment across the way. You'll need two rope arrows to safely make it down, but you can make it down. It gives me access to Cistern Court and exactly one locked door I don't have a key for.

    - prjames
    Last edited by prjames; 20th Dec 2018 at 08:12.

  5. #105
    Classical Master 2008
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Civitas Quinque Ecclesiae HU
    Your questions are connected. The jail is next to the Master Forger's residence. Also note that this sub-objective is a fairly hard one.

  6. #106
    New Member
    Registered: Feb 2017
    I've gone from enjoying this, to being frustrated, to enjoying it again, to now being completely baffled.

    I got to what I think is the Rose Garden, only to enter some sort of inn with haunts and what seems to be an indestructible ghost-burrick. I have no idea where I am, haven't 'met my contact' and have no idea what the hell is going on.


    I haven't seen any trace of any of the tasks/missions others are talking about. Can someone perhaps give me a clue as to what I've missed? Have I done things in the wrong order?

  7. #107
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    @Demilich666 Just keep going up in that inn and at the end of a hallway you'll find a locked door.

  8. #108
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Quote Originally Posted by demilich666 View Post
    I've gone from enjoying this, to being frustrated, to enjoying it again, to now being completely baffled.

    I got to what I think is the Rose Garden, only to enter some sort of inn with haunts and what seems to be an indestructible ghost-burrick. I have no idea where I am, haven't 'met my contact' and have no idea what the hell is going on.


    I haven't seen any trace of any of the tasks/missions others are talking about. Can someone perhaps give me a clue as to what I've missed? Have I done things in the wrong order?
    The ghost burrick (and the other ghost, and the zombie) can all be defeated with holy water. One shot and the ghost burrick goes down!

    - prjames

  9. #109
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Finished this today after many hours! Was great to see my old friend the Dopefish again!

  10. #110
    Classical Master 2008
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Civitas Quinque Ecclesiae HU
    Congratulations to vfig, the first player outside the original testing group to find the thing!

  11. #111
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Malmö, Sweden
    Fabulous mission, I enjoyed over 8 hours of Thiefy bliss. Had no problem with loot objective, cleared the required amount way before I was even thinking of trying to progress the main story. Finished with 75 from the maximum.


    I can add a tip for finding loot: there are plenty of rather cleverly hidden pieces in the spooky part of Rose Garden.


    What I really like is that, at first, everywhere you look, you see a structure that might have a piece of loot, or a power-up, or a readable, or a way forward. But also that the vast majority of those things that might be interesting actually aren't.
    This means you won't get jaded with constant rewards, and you can't know which of all those things that are actually interesting. I felt like a Taffer (both in a good way that I managed to reach places and in a 'facepalm' way that they actually didn't lead to anything) several times. Examples:
    * The balcony with the large chair overlooking the gallows. Very tempting door there - unfrobbable!
    * Warehouse doors above Rose Garden's garden.

    Anyone else:
    - suffering the first death/reload after plunging down the wine dealer's toilet?
    - suffering the second reload after roping down the wine dealer's toilet, only to find that it doesn't lead anywhere and you can't reach the rope?
    - getting blown to bits for climbing the hedge maze BEFORE reading the warning about it?


    I happened to spoil myself with this thread, reading about those X-es before triggering the event. Not sure if I would have ever managed otherwise.

    I was absolutely positive that Pud's tip meant that I should go to Rose Garden's basement, douse the lights and hit the 'head' on the wall down there with a moss arrow, and that this should open the metal door there. It didn't, so I reloaded to save my arrows. Then I practically tripped over the key a short while later...
    Then it took me a long time to find the lock for that key. I tried it on the Archives door first.


    It also took me suprisingly and annoyingly many tries to find a way to get back from that little balcony without taking some major damage...

    I found the 'key skull' very early, and the plaque and the metal door were also found early. But it wasn't until a while after I read in this thread that I saw that the metal door has a frobbable receptacle next to it...

    I loved the sword decoration in the form of tiny blue loot gems! Creative and beautiful.


    Now to a bunch of questions:

    - Where did Oswin hide the crystals? Not sure if I've found them...

    - Are we to assume that the doctor's aquaintance (the master chef) was killed in that skull "Maw" place?

    - What's with the '383' symbol? (The first '3' is inverted). I found it on at least one wall, and also in the roof opening of Rose Garden's gazebo (but only if you look from below (?!), not from above).

    - Are any of these places and things NOT a red herring, i.e. can you enter or find or do something about/with them?:
    * Wine dealer's lowest part of basement, walled-up doorway
    * Similar walled-up doorway in inner room of (what I presume is) a pawn shop. It has a Keeper keyhole symbol next to it.
    * That metal door in Rose Garden's basement
    * What looks like a boiler room a short ways east of Biggest Cucumber
    * Inner part (behind bars) of workshop where you can reach through opening and grab two nuggets
    * Grandmauden's library: small bookshelf with a padlock
    * Grandmauden's statue room, wooden lid with padlock by rafters
    * Roofed yellow-bricked walkway you walk under on Forger's Walk
    * Secret room in Pud's apartment. The corner pillars look interesting. Three different symbols (triangle, square and hexagon) and the fourth has a statue.
    * Three statues, two of them holding sword and hammer
    * In condemned apartment, can you get behind the (insubstantial) bars?
    * Firewatch, inner room and stairway behind gate
    * Passages up or down in executioner's place
    * Mr. Weir's place, stairs behind gate
    Last edited by jiansonz; 22nd Dec 2018 at 11:43.

  12. #112
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by jiansonz View Post
    Anyone else:
    - suffering the first death/reload after plunging down the wine dealer's toilet?
    - suffering the second reload after roping down the wine dealer's toilet, only to find that it doesn't lead anywhere and you can't reach the rope?
    - getting blown to bits for climbing the hedge maze BEFORE reading the warning about it?
    Yes, yes, and yes

  13. #113
    New Member
    Registered: May 2018
    Found the dopefish on my 2nd playthrough. I actually found it super early but I didn't have the mysterious key yet. Great job with the mission, I loved it!

  14. #114
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Malmö, Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by HavvicGames View Post
    Found the dopefish on my 2nd playthrough. I actually found it super early but I didn't have the mysterious key yet. Great job with the mission, I loved it!
    Yeah, now I've found that place, too. Very nice surprise.

    But about the Mysterious key: I can't find it on my 2nd playthrough. It's not where it I found it on the first playthrough (playing on the same difficulty). Is there something else I need to do after helping Pud? Definitely not the things I wrote in my last post, though...



    EDIT: I cheated to find the last 60 loot. If I had kept searching normally, I may eventually have tracked down 10 of it, but most likely never the last 50 (still, the placement of that piece is actually pretty conventional in the Thiefverse...).
    Last edited by jiansonz; 22nd Dec 2018 at 20:15.

  15. #115
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Finally have time to write out my impressions with a few more words:

    I had a very rocky start and a lot of ups and downs with this mission. I had explored the wine cellar and apartments above first thing, but didn't see the vent above the toilet cistern. So then I searched the starting courtyard for a way out, including climbing up to the throne-balcony in vain hope. Went round it all about three times in total before finally seeking help. It was really frustrating to be stuck in a tiny starting area with the only way forward being so hidden. And then mantling onto the toilet in order to jump+mantle onto the cistern, the mantle took me over the edge and I fell in and died in the toilet for the third time (lol). But this all kinda killed my mood, so after getting through the ducts, I saved and left the mission for the next day.

    Once out in the city it became a lot more fun. Lots of places to explore and things of interest to see. Getting around the city was still very difficult. Apart from a few landmarks, the map was of very little use. It was hard to read as it's got very sharp pixels, like it was scaled down without interpolation or something. But with all the city areas gated off from each other, I very quickly had to abandon trying to get anywhere in particular and instead just follow my nose and see where I ended up. And somehow (via a slightly cheaty strafe-jump to Al-Asri's tower) I stumbled across Rose Garden very early on anyhow. Naturally I climbed on top of the hedges rather than try the maze, and was pretty unamused by dying to near-invisible mines. Had to turn gamma to max to see them. I appreciated the joke when finding the list of rules afterwards, but it would have been funnier without instadeath. But I quicksave a lot, so I guess I didn't lost much progress.

    Once inside Rose Garden, things started to get more interesting. At first I assume that since this was a rogue's kinda place, and I was supposed to meet my client here, that the NPCs would be neutral towards me. Well I learnt better very quickly! Once I got upstairs where the weirdness began I was having a great time. The invisible burrick was entertaining. Getting to the end of the noisy corridor and discovering my client wasn't there… well I didn't have a good plan for avoiding the invisible humanoid while getting out, but I managed it after a few attempts (including one attempt at exiting via a window, which didn't go so well!).

    Now the new instructions… I loved that the chalk marks I'd seen around the city and the orders to withdraw guards that I'd seen became revealed as this citywide conspiracy to assassinate this guy. But at the same time, discovering that this was going to be an escort mission made me sigh. Though I figured it couldn't possibly be as bad as Keeper of the Prophecies's escort mission, and indeed it wasn't. I hadn't found firewatch yet, but figured I'd go and deal with the chalk marks I'd already seen, and explore the rest of the map (now with a good reason to explore it all!) and erase them all. I was confused by the other sigils I was seeing in places (the ones made up of multiple number signs), and also confused by finding several chalk signs (Xs with overlaid arrows) that I couldn't erase.

    Eventually I'd erased all the Xs I could find, and knocked out all the AIs on the streets so that the guy would have as safe a path as possible. I also placed a few mines where the unerasable chalk Xs were, thinking hostile AIs would probably appear there. Then I went in search of firewatch, and found it without much difficulty.

    Before sounding the bell, I had one more objective: to steal the cursed gem. In all my explorations I hadn't found any way to get into Humphrey's or Haskell's places. But I had found several places where I'd been able to get out of bounds and reach the rooftops (which is how I discovered the enormous, mysterious arrow very early on). The easiest and closest was by the skull-door-riddle, so I climbed up there again and got into Humphreys over the rooftops. Still not sure what the proper way in is! I had the priests note about diluted holy water and fire, but a single holy water arrow seemed to get rid of the protective field, so I figured that was it for the curse. I found out I was wrong when I tried to leave the room — But now that I had all other objectives done, it was time for the escort quest.

    The quest itself didn't make a lot of sense to me: if my client wanted to get this guy's information, why was I escorting him to the palace instead of intercepting him myself? But the objectives were clear, so escort him to the palace it was. Getting him there after ringing the bell took me a few attempts. The first time, I decided to see if the guy was neutral towards me or not (though the "stick to the shadows" VO made me expect he wouldn't be). He saw me, took fright, and ran directly to the palace, only encountering a single enemy on the way. Then he went in the palace gates and nothing happened! No objectives changed. So I guess that by spooking him myself I'd somehow broken the scripting, and decided to start again and follow him properly this time.

    The second attempt went better for a while. He walked in a roundabout route, and I followed him and intercepted a few hostile AIs (including a number of newly spawned guards, which I thought odd—weren't they supposed to be pulled back when the bell sounded?). At one point I ended up stepping on one of my own mines while ducking out of sight (lol), so I had to quickload. A little after that, the guy got stuck. I don't remember exactly where, but he walked down a street, stopped and looked around, then turned around and came back. I figured he was being smart and doubling back to see if he was being followed. Then when he got to the other end of the street (where he'd come from originally) he stopped, looked around, and turned around again. Then to the far end of the street. Then back to the near end again. Then back again. It looked like he was stuck in this pattern, so I reloaded my save at firewatch to start over once more.

    This time I reread my instructions and saw the bit about the side window that I'd forgotten before. So I figured I'd just spook him and get him to run the short way, since it had kinda worked the first time. And it worked fine—this time he didn't even get spotted by the Thin Alley enemy—and when he got to the palace, I looked around for the side window and found it easily. I hadn't actually expected the palace to have an accessible interior, so I was pleased to find a new place to explore. But from there to the end of the mission didn't take long, and nothing remarkable happened.

    Overall I enjoyed this mission a lot, despite the early frustrating navigation and the escort mission (which turned out much easier than I feared, even if I perhaps didn't do it as intended!). Compared to The Sound Of A Burrick In A Room (which itself is reminiscent of Disorientation in its use of rivers and general sloping layout), this was more awkward to explore, but exploring was more rewarded with interesting places and a few puzzles—where A Burrick felt more bare: lots of places to go, but most of them had nothing more interesting than loot. I had more fun out of this mission despite also having a lot more frustration.

  16. #116
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: Detox clinic
    @ jiansonz

    I discovered a thief engine glitch with regard to the Mysterious key

    Do not read below if you do not want to know the location of the mysterious key!

    It's hidden under the statues head and your meant to have to blind frob to collect it, however when you use a broadhead arrows to destroy the explosive mines on the hedges, the shock wave from the closest mine to the mysterious key causes the key to fly out from under the statues head meaning you'll find it on or by the bottom step of the steps leading up to the Rose Garden.

    You can even see the key fly into the corner if you stand on the hedge closest to the statue and get into the right position keeping an eye on the statues head when you use your broadhead.
    Last edited by fortuni; 1st Jan 2019 at 03:44.

  17. #117
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by fortuni
    I discovered a thief engine glitch with regard to the Mysterious key
    Aha! I too found it at the bottom of the steps. So that’s why the readable hinting at it didn’t make much sense to me!

  18. #118
    Classical Master 2008
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Civitas Quinque Ecclesiae HU
    jiansonz: Thanks! You are correct on the red herrings. The crystals are all nearby, in an open pipe. WRT the symbols, they have a relevance, but they are not needed to finish the missions - nor is their meaning fully spelled out.

    vfig: Thanks for your detailed post! This mission was, indeed, inspired by Reversing the Order (and of course Calendra's Cistern - without outright copying either), and it attempts something very different from Disorientation. Which has a worthy successor in Burrick, in any case. The right way into Humphreys is to simply go left at the skull door and climb around some ledges and transformers.

  19. #119
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2018
    I had similar thoughts to vfig's, although I didn't have as much trouble with the escort section. The Purah influence was very evident, especially in the al-Asri spires, the area just outside Rose Garden. and the Master Forger's mansion. Definitely one of my favorites from the contest so far.

  20. #120
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2007
    Location: Krull Island, in the pub
    I am stuck and it's hard to even describe where I am and where I want to go, since the level has a very solid and unitary design in a good way.

    However, I have no idea how to go to the Rose Garden or the Forgers place.

    I have been at Lord Hasketts and found the vault but could not proceed anywhere else, and also been in a couple of accessible places (golden mansion with red-white floor, tower with purple room, Alehouse, small flat with old thief and sleeping woman, roof garden with dead people).


    Have you got any hint for me? Or even spoiler.

  21. #121
    Classical Master 2008
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Civitas Quinque Ecclesiae HU
    ticky: From the yellow mansion with all the tile floor (Mortesaigues) - look for a balcony over the street, and a way to go up from there. The rest will unfold naturally.

  22. #122
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2007
    Location: Krull Island, in the pub
    Quote Originally Posted by Melan View Post
    ticky: From the yellow mansion with all the tile floor (Mortesaigues) - look for a balcony over the street, and a way to go up from there. The rest will unfold naturally.
    Thank you! Wasn't obvious for the first time, when I went up to that mini-roofgarden with the gravestones. I just wondered what a nice place it is, and did not discover the ledge. Tricky!

  23. #123
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2007
    Location: Krull Island, in the pub
    What to do after ringing the bell?

    I see that there are two routes possibly followed by the archives guy. Both seems to be very difficult. There are tons of assassins looking for him, but I have limited resources on expert. I can flashbomb+blackjack, or mine a couple of them, but there are so many of them that I can't find a solution to keep that guy safe until his destination.

    Frobbing all the X marks before the action also seems to be an option, but there are assassins that have non-frobbable X MARKS NEARBY THEM. From my point of view, this action seems impossible. Maybe there is someting I miss.


    I would be glad to have some hints on this matter.
    Last edited by ticky; 27th Dec 2018 at 04:14.

  24. #124
    Classical Master 2008
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Civitas Quinque Ecclesiae HU
    ticky: All of the X marks are frobable (or should be). There are a few which depict a crossed-out arrow; these can be disregarded. Also, even if you have active assassins left, sometimes That Fucker Bernalt (a name he acquired during beta) still runs to his destination without suffering harm. You can often tie down or distract the assassins while he is running. Sometimes, he just goes down or runs off to some corner of the map, though - hence the nickname. Save early.

  25. #125
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2007
    Location: Krull Island, in the pub
    Quote Originally Posted by Melan View Post
    ticky: All of the X marks are frobable (or should be). There are a few which depict a crossed-out arrow; these can be disregarded. Also, even if you have active assassins left, sometimes That Fucker Bernalt (a name he acquired during beta) still runs to his destination without suffering harm. You can often tie down or distract the assassins while he is running. Sometimes, he just goes down or runs off to some corner of the map, though - hence the nickname. Save early.
    Thank you! I think I could finally do the escort job (?) - cleaned up the road, rang the bell, and followed That Fucker Bernalt to a mansion - but how does the objective tick? He went in safe, but I remained outside with two fire arrow guys..

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