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Thread: Will there be a Thief 2 20th anniversary contest?

  1. #51
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Location: Ireland/Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by Yandros
    Almost all of the other contests over the last 15+ years have been for T2 and have allowed custom content (while restricting in other ways, such as size or theme). We only have one 20th Anniversary Contest for Thief 2 and I don't see why we wouldn't want it to be like the current contest
    Because it's unnatural restriction, driven by nostalgia mostly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yandros
    (...) - plus allow usage of T1G content as well, and derived resources. Anything else is just another contest IMHO. One change I can see, though - perhaps allowing custom .bin files which are stock models with only the texture changed would be nice, as it would make it much easier to have a variety of objects and AI's without violating the stock and stock-derived only rule.
    So, that would be yet another exception from the rule, which kinda proves, that this idea is too limiting and doesn't add up.

    I think there's a false notion of "stock resources only" idea to be more inclusive. It isn't. It puts off a large group of people feeling fed up with looking at the same stuff in just different configurations.

    It's also limiting in terms of what story you want to tell, what kind of world you want to take players to explore. It limits the gameplay experience to just the core elements, which are part of almost every mission. Surely, this can be enjoyable to many, but a broader formula still fits all those nostalgic people too. Surely, if T2Gold was out, LGS would have introduced new resources to convey the story they wanted. Why could we not follow the same path?

  2. #52
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    I disagree that stock is limiting when it comes to people participating. I'd argue that stock, on the contrary, is exactly what beginners want from a contest considering they don't need to learn how to import stuff or configure things. They can just jump in, play with what's at their disposal and finish a mission relatively easily. More options really doesn't necessarily mean better outcomes. It also makes people begin on more or less even grounds. Besides, you can get incredibly creative with stock. Just look at some of the missions made for the contest, e.g. The Whistling of the Gears or Catacombs of Knoss. These do some things I never thought would be possible.

    Anyhow, we will most probably make a poll near mid-February that will touch upon the inclusion of custom assets versus stock/stock derivative only for this upcoming contest. We'll see what the outcome will be.

  3. #53
    Lets celebrate the T2 20th anniversary by showing the world how far thief has evolved in 20 years.
    +1. T1 was a celebration of the past, let T2 anniversary be about the present and future.

  4. #54
    Member
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: Boston MA
    This thread reminds me of old threads about which game you liked better, TG or TMA. Everyone has an opinion and no one is really right or wrong. I like Skacky’s idea of doing a poll. Either way, some authors may not join the contest, but in the end we will end up with new missions to play. I for one think the 20th Anniversary contest was a huge success and whatever the rules of a T2 contest, it will be a big success as well.

  5. #55
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: Detox clinic
    Seeing there are opinions on both stock vs custom why have any restrictions in the first place? Why not allow authors to use either stock or custom objects and let the missions be judged on the merits of gameplay.

    Then all authors can participate and they would be the people to choose whether to use stock or custom objects.

    We could then have 2 votes, one for custom and one for stock and have 2 winners, after all in this current contest almost every mission I have played so far should be the winner.

  6. #56
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: Southern,California
    in order to be a 20th anniversary for thief 2 ,seems to me you would want it stock for at that time there were no other options

    also if you all remember thief 2 over all felt bare anyway


    if we can deal with mass sand bags in t1 contest i am sure we can handle a few more barrels in thief 2 contest or what ever the most used item will be to fill an area

    the idea of the contest is to shine a spotlight on t2 on how it was just 20 years later

    seems to be from some comments its the "give an inch take a mile" with what rules you want

    i say stock t2 resources period


    as you all saw the t1 contest has such amazing level design i don't think them having to use stock affect mission

    if you want a custom map just don't have it as a contest entry


    its going to be the 20th people its a big deal,lets not get greedy with what you all want and put t2 first in the contest=i hope you understand what i ment there

  7. #57
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: Southern,California
    also items alone dont make the mission ,as fortuni said himself almost all the mission in t1 contest for 20th were winners

    so why are people wanting to change the pureness of t2,just come up with a great map/idea for mission,i don't feel custom object will over all make the mission better

    couldn't you just add a texture pack to mission if you want it different

    and for the record i never used a texture pack myself as i have 1 serious rule i follow=i play each mission how the author intended it to be,to show respect to the map author

  8. #58
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Location: Ireland/Poland
    the idea of the contest is to shine a spotlight on t2 on how it was just 20 years later
    If your son / daughter was celebrating 20th birthday, would you give them a photo frame with a picture of how they looked like on their first day on this world? Or would you try to fit your gift to whatever they're into right now?

    Anyway - this was my last post in this thread. A poll would be a good idea - let majority decide.

    P.S.
    I just hope that when (if) it comes to organizing ND10AC in 2022, we'll be all looking into the future, rather than past...

  9. #59
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: Southern,California
    we had 20 years of custom fan missions,why would i want to take the 20th special event to see the same things we been playing entire time,wouldn't it be cool to see then use stock stuff and see how good of mission they can come up with ,more likly post contest all missions will be custom

    just going by how amazing thief 1 contest came out,excluding sand bags lol a joke i felt it was some of the best mission in a long time and for 1 year only wow


    to me it seems ovious,but this is just my view and means nothing,the people making the maps in the end should be the ones to decide

  10. #60
    Member
    Registered: May 2017
    Location: USA
    As an economist, here's my take:

    We, as a community, want FM authors to invest their efforts into producing fun, creative, beautiful, immersive and innovative missions. The problem arises when the competition framework weights these components differently from how we, as players, value these components. For example, in the most recent contest "Story," "Visuals," and "Gameplay/Enjoyment" all received equal weight. Do we actually value these equally, when playing the FMs?

    For authors with the technical know-how, using custom objects/textures is a relatively simple way to improve the overall look of a mission, and therefore often the easiest way to move up the scoreboard. This causes two problems: (1) on the intensive margin, authors invest effort that could have been invested in designing a better map or story, etc... into custom content (the over-investment problem); and (2) on the extensive margin, authors without that technical know-how opt out, as they feel they can't realistically compete, even with some clever ideas (the opt-out problem).

    Using a "stock-resources only" restriction is a very heavy-handed approach to solving these issues. It levels the playing field, and eliminates the over-investment problem, which [arguably] gives more novice mappers a fighting chance. However, it also excessively constrains some mappers, who therefore opt out. We haven't solved the opt-out problem, we've just changed which group of mappers decides not to participate.

    I think a better solution is to change the rubric. If we don't want FM makers to invest too much effort into creating/using custom content, just don't reward it so much. For example, change the "Visuals" category to "Architecture/Design." And increase the weight on "Plot" and "Gameplay/Enjoyment."

    (Disclaimer: I spend most of my days researching how proper performance evaluation/incentive design can solve all the world's problems. "When you're a hammer...")

  11. #61
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    I don't believe anyone dropped out of the TDP20AC because of the restraints of the stock resources.

  12. #62
    Member
    Registered: May 2017
    Location: USA
    Well, they wouldn’t “drop” out, they’d opt out. The rules were clear from the start, so it’s not like people would have to drop out if they didn’t like the rule.

    I, for one, didn’t throw my hat in to begin with. I had a mission in mind that I wanted to make, and doing so with only stock resources would have required too great a compromise. I toyed with some ideas, but ultimately decided to just make the mission I wanted, and skip the competition. I’d imagine I’m not the only one.

    I’d also imagine the opt out rate would be far steeper the second time in short succession.

    Anyone who wanted to continue with stock resources would be free to do so. And if we used a well calibrated rubric, it wouldn’t put them at any disadvantage.

    My point is just that using blanket bans is a simple but suboptimal solution to the problem.
    Last edited by trefoilknot; 9th Dec 2018 at 21:05.

  13. #63
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2009
    Location: Cracow, Poland
    If you ask me, you can create no restrictions contest then let people do FMs with stock resources only or with highest quality graphical content. Just make sure the voting does not include categories like "graphics" or "special effects" - instead of that focus on story and gameplay. I would even drop "atmosphere" and similar terms from voting, because it is also somehow related to graphical factors.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbb View Post
    I like Skacky’s idea of doing a poll. Either way, some authors may not join the contest, but in the end we will end up with new missions to play. I for one think the 20th Anniversary contest was a huge success and whatever the rules of a T2 contest, it will be a big success as well.
    IMHO, if the community is about to divide to two groups: vanilla and HQ, let's approve both of them and let them compete in the same time.

    We can even make another poll for it and ask everybody if they want to split it to two "disciplines": "vanilla" and "custom content", so that the graphical factor is eliminated completely. How about that?

  14. #64
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2011
    Location: Wild and Wooly West of Ireland
    Tell you what, how's about we all meet up in Boston in 2020 and have a few beers. Take a pilgrimage to the old Looking Glass Studios building, maybe?

  15. #65
    Member
    Registered: May 2017
    Location: USA
    I'm in.

  16. #66
    Member
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: Boston MA
    Purgatory:

    Since I live in the Boston area, I think this is a great idea. I have driven by the building where LGS was located and felt a little magic. Also, many of you will remember Komag. He lives in the area as well. I will be happy to buy the first round and maybe the second.

    I know Paul Neurath started another gaming company in the area and hired some former LGS employees. He is located about 20 miles from Boston.

    Final thought. Any contest that produces more quality missions to play is a good contest.

  17. #67
    Member
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: Boston MA
    Misspelled Purgator. My apologies. Damn auto correct.

  18. #68
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2011
    Location: Wild and Wooly West of Ireland
    Clear your schedules, girls and boys. Thief 2 Convention 2020 is on. FMs, Cosplay and dioramas! All are welcome.
    Seriously, it would be nice to meet some other Taffers out there in the tafferverse(?). Sorry for off topic waffle.
    Stock resources all the way!

  19. #69
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: Full on Kevel's mom
    I would be down to meet up with some folks.

  20. #70
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Location: Ireland/Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by trefoilknot View Post
    Well, they wouldn’t “drop” out, they’d opt out. The rules were clear from the start, so it’s not like people would have to drop out if they didn’t like the rule.

    I, for one, didn’t throw my hat in to begin with. I had a mission in mind that I wanted to make, and doing so with only stock resources would have required too great a compromise. I toyed with some ideas, but ultimately decided to just make the mission I wanted, and skip the competition. I’d imagine I’m not the only one.

    I’d also imagine the opt out rate would be far steeper the second time in short succession.

    Anyone who wanted to continue with stock resources would be free to do so. And if we used a well calibrated rubric, it wouldn’t put them at any disadvantage.

    My point is just that using blanket bans is a simple but suboptimal solution to the problem.
    I totally agree and I like a lot this idea of weighted categories (and I vaguely remember there was a contest once, where this was implemented, but I might be mixing up contests\forums\games etc...).
    We could even make a poll with a list of voting categories to check their importance for people and adjust weights accordingly, before the contest.

    This approach could possibly apply to all the future contests.

    Besides, going for eye candy is like a double edged sword. It may give an extra credit at the start, but once people realize, that a gameplay does not match the visual quality, they would down vote it in a let's say "Overall impression" category, as a result of disappointment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marzec
    Just make sure the voting does not include categories like "graphics" or "special effects" - instead of that focus on story and gameplay. I would even drop "atmosphere" and similar terms from voting, because it is also somehow related to graphical factors.
    Just what trefoilknot said earlier - removing these categories completely is just a different form of a discrimination. Instead give them an appropriate weight, based on the overall community's taste and preferences.
    Last edited by PinkDot; 10th Dec 2018 at 15:18.

  21. #71
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2011
    I just want to say purely as a consumer (non-author) if it's a good mission I will play it, I don't care stock resources or not

  22. #72
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: Southern,California
    well i though about this over a sleep and i got the perfect solution

    have the contest in 2 parts one for original resources and one with custom, problem solved,2 sets of voting one for original and one for custom

    everyone will then be happy,also gives more chances for each side to take 1-3rd place

    ensuring 6 winners instead of 3

    and you not forcing the author to pick one or the other,they can choose what contest they want to enter

    but then the author has to figure what others will do to maybe pick the contest with less people doing it so they got a better chance to place higher :P

    adds a bit of stat to there choice ,i would have to guess most would want custom way but that will mean as far as look it will be harder to win,unless you the elite author

    and doing stock give the most even chances for authors to win

  23. #73
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    To me it just doesn't make sense to have the first contest be limited to stock and then the second be sort of middling on its premise. It's either all is allowed or none is tbh.

  24. #74
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: Southern,California
    my point was if some want custom and some want stock why force one side to waver and be unhappy,my idea covers everyone

    ofcourse my personal view is it should be stock like t1 contest,but it seems that is not good enough for some people

  25. #75
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2009
    Location: Cracow, Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by downwinder View Post
    well i though about this over a sleep and i got the perfect solution

    have the contest in 2 parts one for original resources and one with custom, problem solved,2 sets of voting one for original and one for custom
    That's just the same I wrote in my previous post. Just read my post.

    After reading of what trefoilknot said, in the end I think the "vanilla mode" we all speak about here is making too strong limitations. I know you can make really good mission with stock resources only. On the other hand, if you want to make your plot interesting, you will add a new character or a special item, etc... Which is just not possible with these strict rules.

    That said I am changing my opinion a bit. I think the contest rules should allow both "domains", encouraging vanilla to the participants at the same time. IMHO ideally we should get both HQ missions and vanilla missions with a few custom resources.

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