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Thread: Will there be a Thief 2 20th anniversary contest?

  1. #101
    New Member
    Registered: Nov 2018
    Meanwhile, also 20 years later... https://imgur.com/a/NKoRYAV

    Quote Originally Posted by ValmontPhl View Post
    20 years. What are we celebrating if not the leaps and bounds made & abilities utilized by the fine authors here?
    The games. The ones turning 20 years old, thus prompting these contests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keeper Flix View Post
    I doubt that the first fm's looked like your first screenshot, they were probably at 640x480 and didn't use high res textures
    It didn't. That FM is The BathHouse (2000) and that screenshot seems to have been taken with an HD texture pack applied (which, strangely enough, doesn't make the FM look much younger than ~20).

  2. #102
    Member
    Registered: May 2017
    Location: USA
    Let's not let the argument devolve into: "Stock resource restrictions are bad, because it results in ugly missions!" That's a straw-man. There are loads of gorgeous missions using only stock resources. I don't think anyone is [intending] to argue otherwise (although I can see ValmontPhl's post being misconstrued in that way).

    The folks opposing the restriction are making some combination of the following two claims:

    (1) Stock resources are limiting in that they constrain the kind of mission that can be made. Thus, we shouldn't limit to stock only.
    (2) Restrictions can yield interesting results, but we *just* used that restriction. Therefore, we should use a different restriction.

    It's totally cool to disagree with either or both of those statements. But let's scrap the "stock only can be beautiful, too!" arguments. No one is taking the other side on that.

  3. #103
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: Argentina
    I don't believe people who think missions have to be beautiful understand what Thief is about, so why take into account their opinion? And it's been proven many times that some of the most custom resource heavy FMs are "not that good" or satisfying to play.

  4. #104
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: Southern,California
    vphil said it best ,stock is a way to show tribute to lgs ,also a way to say even with stock items a mission can be amazing,and very important ,makes a level playing field for all people who make missions for contest


    lets all take this moment to look at the amazing thief 1 tree in all its glory

    do you all remember the first time you saw the great tree in thief 1 and what did you think when you got to climb it from the inside for the first time

  5. #105
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: On parole
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkMax View Post
    I don't believe people who think missions have to be beautiful understand what Thief is about, so why take into account their opinion?
    Of all the points made in this thread this has got to be the most arrogant. So those people who appreciate a different style of FM looks other than stock FM's are unable to either understand Thief or adore the game nor are worthy of having an opinion. Seems that I have been playing the wrong game for all the wrong reasons for the last 10 years. Off to Cragscleft with you heathen!

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkMax View Post
    And it's been proven many times that some of the most custom resource heavy FMs are "not that good" or satisfying to play.
    And every stock mission ever made is just brilliant, hugely satisfying and unquestionably superior to anything made with custom objects. Two words Dread Complex!
    Last edited by fortuni; 13th Dec 2018 at 07:35.

  6. #106
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: Argentina
    Quote Originally Posted by fortuni View Post
    And every stock mission ever made is just brilliant, hugely satisfying and unquestionably superior to anything made with custom objects.
    That's your own words buddy

    Be honest, when was the last time you've seen an FM become an all-time classic because of its looks? Yeah I know, don't say it. Or when did Thief become a great game because of muh grafix? Truth be told I'd rather play a small mission with stock resources that has good gameplay/plot than a package of half a gigabyte that relies on the most obscure of ways to progress only to keep you hostage so that you can admire dem custom grafix and beauty. And oh god have we got a bunch of them.

  7. #107
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: On parole
    No mission has ever become an all time classic because of its looks, custom or stock, it’s all to do with gameplay, the plot, the design and the build.. but to make sweeping statements that most custom resource heavy missions are not worth playing due to ‘muh grafix’ are not worth playing makes me wonder if you have played any mission released in the last 5 years.

    Of course there have been some turkeys released recently, but what proportion of older missions went on to become all time classics, 10% or less probably which is probably a similar percentage with the latest releases.

    A great mission usually has nothing to do with how it looks but how it plays and I along with many others appreciate and respect both styles of FMs, so find it a bit bizarre that some players can instantly dismiss all custom missions as rubbish because they are made with hi-res graphics, regardless as to how good they actually are.

  8. #108
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: Argentina
    Quote Originally Posted by fortuni View Post
    if you have played any mission released in the last 5 years
    Nice try my friend but I'm not giving any names, especially not here on TTLG where all FMs are good because they exist

    You're basically just agreeing on what I said before.

  9. #109
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: On parole
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkMax View Post
    all FMs are good because they exist
    Couldn't agree more, regardless of whether they are custom resource bloated turkeys or not
    Last edited by fortuni; 13th Dec 2018 at 12:05.

  10. #110
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: Argentina
    Good for you that you think every FM is great. Now let people who have a real critical point of view on things have an opinion on what should and shouldn't be allowed in a T2 Anniversary Contest!

  11. #111
    DromEd Archmage
    Registered: Nov 2010
    Location: Returned to the eternal labor
    Well, let's join the debate since I still don't understand why are people disagreeing on such thing.
    Should we use custom or not custom?

    I love creating custom models and objects, I love to add new ressources in the game and share it with the community. No doubt I would have loved doing it for TDP20AC as for the incoming TMA20AC since I use to imitate LGS'style to be closer to their vision of the game when creating it. However, if I can create custom object without any limitation, will it be fairplay compared to mappers who can't create custom objects? No, It won't. And it would be the same problem with a newcomer who decide to submit his first mission ever made for the contest and who is not confident yet with ressources downloading and use, even if it's not that hard.

    Okay, T2 stock ressources are limited and uglier than TG ressources (in matter of colors, not polys of course) so I can understand why people asks for custom.

    So just for this, we could at least authorize custom made from stock only (as TDP20AC did) AND perhaps 10 custom objects/meshes as Tannar and Yandros said.

    At worst, we could maybe prepare a file containing custom models and objects filled by contributors before the contest start. 5-10 Thief2 themed objects/scripts/meshes/textures per ressources contributors maybe? I won't be disturbed by doing this and, at least, backscene contributors would have a chance to show themselves as the mappers! It would be fair isn't it?

    Of course, I understand that such a plan would be more work to be managed since we can't mix textures, objects, models and scripts but at least, contestant will have ressources MADE FOR TMA20AC, limited in matter of amount and available for -every- contestants.

  12. #112
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2011
    Location: Wild and Wooly West of Ireland
    One contest, two categories. Old School Classic/Custom. Pick a winner from each. Then, whoever wants to build, can build in a manner befitting their style. When you have two eventual winners from those categories, vote on a Grand Champion, but limit that vote to gameplay, story, and layout.

  13. #113
    Meanwhile 20 years later: https://darkfate.org/view/simple/fil...screenshots#pp[1]/1/

    It's not like all new missions have to look like this, in fact KoI has some framerate problems due to the engine being pushed too far. And IMO that's a creative limitation itself. You may have a kind of stylistic restriction, saying that missions "should reflect the spirit of original T2 missions", but let the authors interpret and express that in their own way, whether with original assets only, new materials made upon the old ones, or completely new models, textures, and materials. Regardless of visual approach, gameplay is still king.

  14. #114
    Desperately Dodgy Moderator
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: Fields of bluegrass
    After discussing with skacky, we have reached a decision on this which hopefully will make most people happy (for now, at least) and reduce some of the contentious arguing going on here.

    In late January, we will post a poll here asking you to vote on whether you would prefer the TMA20 Contest to be limited to stock and stock-derived resources only (which will be expanded slightly over what was allowed for the TDP20 Contest as has been discussed here), or to allow unlimited custom content. Those will be the only two choices. We are nixing other options that have been discussed here, such as having both categories with separate voting, or a finite limit on the number of custom resources allowed. The reason for that is a combination of keeping the choice simple and those other variations being a lot more work to administrate when the missions arrive.

    The poll will run for around 4 weeks, and the new contest will be announced soon thereafter (right as, or just after, the voting for TDP20 concludes) using the rules which won the poll.


    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    Regardless of visual approach, gameplay is still king.
    I think we finally can agree on something.

  15. #115
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    Quote Originally Posted by Yandros View Post
    After discussing with skacky, we have reached a decision on this which hopefully will make most people happy (for now, at least) and reduce some of the contentious arguing going on here.

    In late January, we will post a poll here asking you to vote on whether you would prefer the TMA20 Contest to be limited to stock and stock-derived resources only (which will be expanded slightly over what was allowed for the TDP20 Contest as has been discussed here), or to allow unlimited custom content. Those will be the only two choices. We are nixing other options that have been discussed here, such as having both categories with separate voting, or a finite limit on the number of custom resources allowed. The reason for that is a combination of keeping the choice simple and those other variations being a lot more work to administrate when the missions arrive.

    The poll will run for around 4 weeks, and the new contest will be announced soon thereafter (right as, or just after, the voting for TDP20 concludes) using the rules which won the poll.
    This is good. It's either all is allowed, or none is imo. Any limitation with regards to quantity would just be arbitrary.

  16. #116
    Member
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: Boston MA
    Yandros/Skacky:

    This sounds like the right idea and I for one, completely support it.

    Also, we canít lose sight of the amount of work that goes into organizing and managing the contest. Sometimes we think of the work the mission authors and expend, but forget the amount of work to create/enforce the rules and manage the process.

    Thanks to Yandros and Slacky!! Looking forward to the poll, but enjoying the heck out of the T1 missions. What a joy!

  17. #117
    New Member
    Registered: Dec 2018
    Even though Yandros and Skacky came to an agreement about that topic I wanted to say my opinion.

    I don't know why there should excist any restriction for an anniversary contest. I understood that for a thief reloaded contest for example but for an anniversary contest?

    The most precious thing with having so much different authors creating fm's is that there are so much different fm's. Just looking at the "fm listing by type"-list makes clear how different each of us interprets the thief universe. And that's a good thing. For the anniversary contest I really want to see how each contestant pays tribute to the game in his/ her own way.

    I would rather prefer a change of the voting system especially to observe how many fm's a contestant made before so that a new dromeder really have a chance to win. Or even don't make this a contest. Let's call it the "Thief 2 20th anniversary party" as we could have called this contest the "Thief 1 20th anniversary advent calendar" (because there where 24 entries). Let us just celebrate. *add smiley with a confetti gun here*

  18. #118
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: Full on Kevel's mom
    Right, contest confined to only T2X resources confirmed.

  19. #119
    Member
    Registered: May 2017
    Location: USA
    Quote Originally Posted by Random_Taffer View Post
    Right, contest confined to only T2X resources confirmed.
    HA! Actually not a bad idea for May 2025...

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