TTLG|Thief|Bioshock|System Shock|Deus Ex|Mobile
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 70

Thread: John Romero releases unofficial episode 5 for Ultimate Doom

  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by icemann View Post
    I have nothing but the utmost respect for John Romero. He and John Carmack made id software the success that it was. And they were too essential halves that were key to that success. Carmack brought the tech/programming skills, and Romero brought the excellent game design side.
    I feel like that is very probably unfair to other people at Id who are less well-known (I don't have the knowledge to back that feeling up, though).

    Quake 2 was ok, but a pale comparison to Quake 1
    I've always thought Quake 1 was dullsville, and Quake 2 was a much better game. Both games have their fans.

    Great programmers are a dime a dozen. Great game designers are rare.
    Now you're definitely talking complete tosh. People who are genuinely great at what they do in any field are not "a dime a dozen". Great game designers are rare. Great programmers are likewise rare.

    Anyhow, nice to see the new Doom episode.

  2. #27
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    When John Romero was around in the early days of id Software, Tom Hall was their designer.

    And Doom was practically design-less. Hall wrote the Doom Bible, but then the team threw it out and just made a collection of individual levels with very simple arcade shooting and key hunting gameplay. Same for Quake 1. I enjoyed both games a lot, but they are hardly examples of good game design.

  3. #28
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    I'm going completely by a Retro Gamer Magazine article / interview with John Romero, but he originally designed Quake 1 as a medieval RPG style thing, but then due to Doom's success and the huge amount of pressure to pump out another FPS Quake 1 mid-development was switched to an FPS. Hence why there is such a mish-mash of medieval and future tech. Romero argued with Carmack QUITE a bit regarding the change, but was overruled. And that's why he left id software.

    Shadowcat: id software's absolute first game, Dangerous Dave started out as a game coded by Romero entitled "Dangerous Dave in Copyright Infringement".



    The game started out as a test of how to implement smooth scrolling on PC, which up until that point had not been done (on PC). Romero sent the demo off to Nintendo in hopes of scoring a deal to do an official PC port of Super Mario Bros. Nintendo were not amused and refused the port. Soon after, the game was changed to Dangerous Dave.

    Without Dangerous Dave, there would be no id software. Commander Keen (coded by Romero and Carmack) may have been the game(s) to catapult the company to much bigger success, but without Dangerous Dave they wouldn't have got their start. And then with Commander Keen, that was the duo in perfect tandem.

    As for my comment on designers vs coders, I'm basing that off two areas I've experienced first hand: Teaching games dev at university and witnessing skills by end of semesters (3 years of teaching currently), and from going to indie developer meet ups for several years in Melbourne. Always FAR more good coders than good designers. I'm certainly not saying that there's not good designers out there as there is definitely is, but I've met and witnessed FAR more good coders.

  4. #29
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    The way I remember it was Romero was forced out by the other members of id, because he was slacking and just sat around and played deathmatches all day long. But the reason he was doing that in the first place was likely because development wasn't going in the direction he wanted it to.

  5. #30
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Completely false.

  6. #31
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    Why do you say that? Are you saying he quit as opposed to being forced to leave?

  7. #32
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Somewhere
    DOES IT REALLY FUCKING MATTER AFTER ALL THIS TIME

    no, no it doesnt.

  8. #33
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    @Piglick - C'mon man, this is gaming history, super important stuff for sure. I think. Well, they did write a book about it in any case.

    So that said, I dug into my copy of "Masters of Doom" from 10 years ago, here are some pertinent quotes:

    Carmack knew what he had to do. He had to prove that Romero was slacking. And he knew just how. He wrote a program that would create a time log whenever Romero worked on his PC. According to the results, his partner wasn’t working much. When he confronted Romero with the data, his partner exploded. “You’re only doing that so you can fire me,” Romero snapped.
    After all his speculation, Carmack now had his proof—scientific proof—that Romero was not only not working but becoming toxic. With that evidence in hand, he didn’t feel the least bit of remorse when he arrived at his conclusion: Romero needed to be warned, officially warned, to shape up. He was talking too much to the press, talking too much to fans, deathmatching too much in the office, and now the rest of the company was suffering. Carmack approached Adrian and Kevin and said, “We need to put Romero on record that he is about to be fired.”
    “Okay,” Carmack said, “we can’t put it off any longer.” Shortly after Quake’s release, he sat in a Mexican restaurant called Tia’s having lunch with Adrian and Kevin. Romero’s time was up. He was clearly not pulling his weight. It was time to let him go. The thought made Adrian physically sick. This is Romero we’re talking about. But he knew he was at a crossroads. Either Romero was going to have to leave or Carmack was going to dissolve the company. There was no middle ground. Kevin agreed. It was hard to let someone go, especially given that Romero was one of the founders of the company, someone who’d contributed so much to their success; but there was no alternative.
    Last edited by Brethren; 14th Dec 2018 at 15:21.

  9. #34
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Weird to see so much pushback. And it's not just of the defending this guy variety, this is mostly straight up "don't even criticize" type of stuff.

    Look, if Romero was going around pushing himself as the maker of Gunman Taco Truck or whatever, then I'm not going after him for 18+ year old stuff. But as long as he's out reminding everyone that he was connected to Doom, then the events that followed up in Doom's wake are totally fair game.

  10. #35
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Brethren: Thanks for that. Interesting stuff. That is not the way Romero tells it. Or in the RG interview anyway.

    I stand corrected then. Does the book talk about the complete change in direction for Quake mid-development? Maybe he started slacking off after that happened.

  11. #36
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    Weird to see so much pushback. And it's not just of the defending this guy variety, this is mostly straight up "don't even criticize" type of stuff.

    Look, if Romero was going around pushing himself as the maker of Gunman Taco Truck or whatever, then I'm not going after him for 18+ year old stuff. But as long as he's out reminding everyone that he was connected to Doom, then the events that followed up in Doom's wake are totally fair game.
    So, what, he's not even allowed to bring up Doom when he's doing things directly related to it? Releasing free Doom content? Better bring up Daikatana, lest anyone forgets.


    Also, I don't think it's weird to see pushback at all. I know I'm sick and tired of the constant bashing. Seriously, it's been 18 years, give it a rest, people.

  12. #37
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    @Starker, you're taking all of this a bit too seriously. John Romero made himself a rock star. 18 years ago has nothing to do with it. You can't forget Daikatana in the same way that you can't forget Doom or Quake. They are polar opposite stages of the career of one of the best known game developers of all time. It all just comes with the territory.

  13. #38
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Why, though? Why does he still have to be torn down after so much time has passed? What is the benefit of this? Drive him out of the game industry? Wear him down so that he never makes anything again? At this point, it's nothing more than petty vindictiveness.
    Last edited by Starker; 14th Dec 2018 at 23:41.

  14. #39
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Especially when he made 1 bad game and a mountain of great games. I could care less about Daikitana.

    Its like saying a musicians terrible after putting out a bad album even though they had 6 great ones.

  15. #40
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Romero gets shit for a lot of reasons.
    He's a publicity whore
    He cultivated the "rock star gamer" image
    He tried to take more than his fair share of credit for id's big successes.
    He portrayed himself as a game design guru who was never really given the chance at id
    When he finally got his opportunity to show the world what he could do, with full control and design freedom, a big budget and no deadline, he produced an embarrassingly bad game
    After that, he declared that mobile gaming was the future and went on to make a handful of mobile games that nobody remembers
    He was given a chance to lead again by Midway and produced Gauntlet: Seven Sorrows, to middling reviews
    Over the last decade, he has announced a few new projects that have failed to go anywhere, including a new studio (Iron Slipgate?) and a new FPS (Blackroom) with Adrian Carmack
    Now he has to resort to making Doom levels just to keep his name in the news

  16. #41
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Even if he made the Doom levels just to keep his name in the news, is that really so bad that he has to be lambasted for it and every little thing from his past brought up?
    Last edited by Starker; 17th Dec 2018 at 13:36.

  17. #42
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    Y'know, for all the rationalising going on in here about it, I think the simplest explanation is there's a tremendous amount of fallout from the 'Romero's about to make you his bitch' ad campaign back in the day. It probably wasn't his fault (marketing departments can be... special, and in the 90s they were doubly so). But a) it's the closest relevant touchpoint for him since he's not really done anything of note since Daikatana; pride goeth, etc. b) people like nursing grudges, and c) I guess people just can't resist the chance to be Nelson from the Simpsons.


  18. #43
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    For 18 years? I'm just saying it's pathetic at this point. He has long apologised for those adverts. Just maybe it's time to move on. Or does it take another 18 years? 36 years? At this point, it is grudge held longer than that of the Count of Monte Cristo. And for what? For a rock star image? For seeming arrogant? For making a bad game? For not making a really good game after that? For making mobile games? I'm having a hard time figuring out what the big crime here is that warrants that sort of a dedicated grudge.
    Last edited by Starker; 17th Dec 2018 at 14:05.

  19. #44
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    Agreed. It's past time to give the man a break. I think he's earned it by now.

    RE: your edit, I don't think anyone's trying to one-up The Count of Monte Cristo (though that'd be another tale for the ages that'd almost be worth the effort just for how singular the story would be), it's just how human memory works through association. Romero self-immolated when he put himself in the spotlight - so by association, every time he tries it again, people are going to remember that fireball.

    I know every time someone mentions Romero, my brain generally goes, 'oh, the dude who took down most of Ion Storm by himself', before remembering his more important work with id. It's a very human thing to associate negative experiences first instead of positive ones.
    Last edited by Sulphur; 17th Dec 2018 at 14:17.

  20. #45
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    I don't think anyone's trying to one-up the Count of Monte Cristo either. It was purely to highlight the ridiculousness of it all.

  21. #46
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    Good. I'd still like to see someone try, though.

  22. #47
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    You guys keep trying to make this about Daikatana, but it's not about that. It's about looking at the sum of his career so far and what he has accomplished & contributed, and contrasting that with the fame he has achieved and the size of his ego.

    He worked on a few famous games during the ~5 years he was at id, but he was just one of a team. He didn't design Commander Keen, or Wolf 3D, or Doom. In the early days of id, he was a programmer. For Doom he wrote the level editor and designed about 1/3-1/2 of the maps. After Tom Hall left, he had the chance to lead the design for Quake, which he conceived to be a medieval/fantasy type game with RPG elements and 3rd person melee combat with a giant hammer. Reportedly, the designers and artists went in circles for year while the engine was being developed. And when the engine was done, the team voted to scrap Romero's ideas in favor of a Doom clone. In the end, his contribution to Quake was mainly writing the level editor and sound work. He notoriously slacked off during Quake development, and spent too much time with the press. He was pushed out the door 22 years ago.

    What has he accomplished in the last 22 years after id that makes him worth paying attention to now? The last time he had a big budget, which was about 10 years ago, he spent 4 years making an MMO before the publisher pulled the plug on him. He's been talking about creating a new FPS since 2012. Can't find anyone to fund his project. He and Adrian tried to crowd fund it a couple years ago and the Kickstarter flopped. He promised to come back with a demo, but that never happened. He says he's still working on something, but it's a secret. Something about the publisher wanting to handle the PR, not the developer. If true, who could blame them.

    He probably misses all the fawning press attention, and I rather cynically view this Doom episode as capitalizing on an anniversary to get his name back on the front pages. Because the defining characteristic of John's career is his narcissism, not his game design skills.

  23. #48
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    To be honest, that sounds even more petty. So, just because he hasn't made a blockbuster hit game in the meanwhile, he must be lambasted at every turn when he does something for the rest of his life? Again, why? Nobody is asking you to cheer him on, but what's the worst that could happen if he does make another game?

    Also, even if he is just craving for attention, people will get a bunch of Doom levels out of it.
    Last edited by Starker; 19th Dec 2018 at 01:10.

  24. #49
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    Starker, you keep asking why, why, why. No offense, but read the thread - people are telling you exactly why. You're just not accepting their answers. There's no secret reason for it besides what's been stated here.

    And tbh I think people would love to see him succeed. But since he talked such a big game and failed miserably 20 years ago, and really hasn't come up with anything significant since, it's understandable that people would be skeptical of anything he does now. Doesn't that make sense?

    Plus, I didn't see anyone in this thread really going off on a Daikatana tirade in the first place. It was mentioned a few times, but that was it, so I think you're overreacting.

  25. #50
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    No offence, but none of the reasons that people have been bringing seem to warrant the treatment. Let's look at them for a bit, shall we...

    Making a bad game and having an offensive ad, both of which happened decades ago (and he has apologised for the ad).
    At some point, apparently taking more credit for his time at ID than was appropriate.
    Having been too fond of publicity.
    Having had a rock star image after he produced some hit games (and yes, he was not alone, but one of several people).
    Participating in projects that have failed to go anywhere.
    Not making another hit game.
    Making Doom levels for the sole purpose to get in headlines.

    Does this sound like anything worth a lifetime grudge?

    As for my reaction, I think it's entirely appropriate for the amount of overreaction John Romero keeps getting. People keep portraying him as some sort of a villain, but as far as I'm concerned, nothing he's accused of seems to rise to that level. Being skeptical is one thing, but when things that happened decades ago keep being brought up and his character keeps being attacked, this is more like being vindictive at this point.

    Let's say we assume the absolute worst of him and take it that he really made the Doom levels only because he wanted attention and for no other reason. Is that really such a big crime that he would deserve flak for it? Why not accuse him of drinking milk out of the carton while we're at it.
    Last edited by Starker; 19th Dec 2018 at 03:11.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •