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Thread: Testers Needed: Alternative Thief 2 Patcher/Installer

  1. #26
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2015
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    the 1.18 patch crfs are merged with the patched resources, I'd assume?
    Actually, the current implementation involves patching the original CRFs if version 1.07 is detected. If 1.18 is detected, they are not patched. I suppose merging them with with the fixed resources would be another implementation, but it would also mean that they would be present regardless of game version, making them redundant on 1.18 installs.

    also, NVScript seems to be out of date for quite a bit, get the latest version here (maybe double check all the other 3rdparty scripts as well).
    Ah, I was using NVScript 1.26 from here. It is good to know that there is a repository where newer versions may be obtained. I will use the one from that location from now on.

    the new bell2 is a hires (EP) resource, so it needs to be placed into the EP crf, RESPATCH should be reserved for fixed vanilla resources.
    Yes, this was my mistake. It has since been corrected in the latest build, which is now uploaded in the same fashion as before.

    EDIT: With the current candles implementation, wouldn't the vhotted objects be nullified by either NecroAge or EP2 if installed? The current load order has both of these supercede the fixed resources and EP.
    Last edited by Jax64; 4th Mar 2019 at 12:31. Reason: EDIT

  2. #27
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    not sure whether there ever was something like an out of the box 1.18 version that would have the patch crfs already merged into the main crfs (I only have the sold out version and the platinum dvd, both are the dreaded 1.07/1.18 hybrid version, same goes for steam). well, as long as the patcher always makes sure the 1.18 files are loaded properly, everything should be fine.

    yes, NecroAge and EP2 would create problems for the Candle mod unless they include proper models, that's why I'm trying to get them updated. TFix is installing some annoying overrides to circumvent the issue until it's resolved properly - I'm hoping to get both packs updated soon enough so you won't have to deal with this in a similar fashion. having the models inside the Candle mod folder would also circumvent the problem, but then users wouldn't be able to choose whether they want to use vanilla style candles ("old") or hires ones ("new"), and would have to roll with whatever set is there, and that is a guaranteed way of getting complaints (been there).
    Last edited by voodoo47; 4th Mar 2019 at 12:54.

  3. #28
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2015
    I happen to have two trapezoidal-box Thief 2 releases. One is version 1.07 and the other 1.18, making it very easy to compare versions. The 1.18 release appears to have the updated resources integrated into the CRFs and updated versions of both gen.osm and dark.gam, which are the two files the patcher checks for to determine the version. These "hybrid" installs have the 1.07 version of these two files, flagging them to be patched properly. This implementation seems to work rather well, as it properly updates both version 1.07 and the hybrid versions.

    As for the candle mod situation, I appreciate the effort to circumvent this issue. Hopefully they can be updated to include proper support, but the current implementation should work well enough until then.

  4. #29
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    we'll see - if they won't get updated (EP2 is looking good, and I've just sent a pm to the NecroAge author), the vhotted candle models will either have to be returned into the Candles modfolder (forcing everyone to use the hires models for CanStic2.bin, CanStick.bin and TrCandle.bin), or create TFix style overrides, which isn't terrible, but I always prefer a proper solution wherever possible.

    looks like you've got the whole 1.07/1.18 situation under control, so not going to poke into that any further.

  5. #30
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2015
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    we'll see - if they won't get updated (EP2 is looking good, and I've just sent a pm to the NecroAge author), the vhotted candle models will either have to be returned into the Candles modfolder (forcing everyone to use the hires models for CanStic2.bin, CanStick.bin and TrCandle.bin), or create TFix style overrides, which isn't terrible, but I always prefer a proper solution wherever possible.
    I seem to have found a solution to this problem, which should work fairly well even if the mods are not updated soon. The patcher will now place the high-resolution models in the candles mod folder only if either NecroAge or EP2 is detected. If they are not, no action is taken, allowing the models from either the EP or the fixed resources to be used depending on what is chosen during installation. The only drawback to this method is the fact that the user must run the patcher after installing NecroAge or EP2, meaning he must run it again if the mods were installed after the initial patching.


    In addition to this, I have added the option to install legacy executables that do not interfere with the rest of the install, very similar to TFix. I do not know if this particularly interests anybody, but perhaps the option for some sort of compatibility in case of failure would be welcome.

    Though with all of this out of the way, it may be nearing time for the first release. I do intend to make further changes, but the state T2Fix is now is fairly stable and full-featured, and it would be nice to have an easy way of updating in the future, especially for the upcoming contest.

  6. #31
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    not going to work all that well, as most people will install texture packs last (again, been there with TFix). I have been thinking about this, and after checking all the resources, I've found out that there are only two conflicting models, CanStick.bin and CanStic2.bin - placing a permanent copy of those two files back to the obj folder of the Candles mod will ensure that vhotted models will be used at all times. the drawback is that people who want old models and interactive candles will have to tolerate two slightly higher res candle models for now, but as a temporary measure that makes sure everything works at all times, I'd consider this acceptable.

    so basically, skip the detection, just pop the two models back to the Candles\obj folder and call it good for the time being - that would be my recommendation. they can always be removed once the texture packs are updated.

  7. #32
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2015
    Very well. Simply having those objects included with the candles mod would be a much more straightforward solution, not to mention easier to implement. It has been added to the latest build, though I do hope this will not be needed in the future. I also managed to bring down the size of the setup executable a fair amount through more effective compression.

  8. #33
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    36a is not the latest, I'd assume? still 355MB.

    anyway, I'm thinking force-loading (the latest) NVScript via the gamesys dml could be a good idea - basically, this should make dead sure the latest NVScript from the OSM folder will always get used no matter what (even when the FM uses a renamed osm), fixing this once and for all. but these global fixes are always a bit of a judgement call, hmm.. need to think it through. //yes, should be fine, here's the new gamesys.dml:
    Code:
    DML1
    
    //load extra scripts
    #script "nvscript"
    #script "squirrel"
    
    //adding proper alpha to avoid sharp edges on plants
    ObjProp -3291 "RenderAlpha" = 0.9999
    ObjProp -3292 "RenderAlpha" = 0.9999
    ObjProp -3293 "RenderAlpha" = 0.9999
    ObjProp -2840 "RenderAlpha" = 0.9999
    ObjProp -2841 "RenderAlpha" = 0.9999
    ObjProp -5345 "RenderAlpha" = 0.9999
    ObjProp -5346 "RenderAlpha" = 0.9999
    ObjProp -6079 "RenderAlpha" = 0.9999
    //adding proper alpha to avoid sharp edges on blood stains
    +ObjProp -1519 "RenderAlpha" = 0.9999
    //fixing hammer dimensions
    +ObjProp -458 "PhysDims"
    {
    	"Radius 1" 0.34
    }
    lets autoload squirrel as well while at it. also, gamesys.dml itself should be in the OSM folder, if it's supposed to apply everything at all times.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 9th Mar 2019 at 18:15.

  9. #34
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2015
    Yes, you would be correct. Version 0.36b is about 340 MB, still larger than I would like, but about ten percent smaller than some previous builds. I am currently using LZMA2 compression, and the data before compression amounts to about 1.1 GB. Though if anyone is more knowledgable of data compression practices, I would be willing to accept other suggestions.

    As for the gamesys dml, I will make these changes immediately. Forcing the game to load the latest version of these scripts should fix more problems than it creates by my understanding. I am also thinking of making some objects impossible to climb, as TFix does. The front gate in Running Interference and some iron fences in later levels are possible to climb with new mantle enabled. Therefore the following may be added as well as the above unless anyone vehemently disagrees:
    Code:
    //fixing mantling on objects that should not be climbable
    +ObjProp -2551 "PhysCanMant"
    {
    	"" false
    }
    +ObjProp -5117 "PhysCanMant"
    {
    	"" false
    }
    There may be more objects that new mantle perhaps helps too much. This may require some further investigation.

    EDIT: Perhaps autoloading script-t2.osm would be welcome as well. There are currently two identical scripts in the OSM folder to circumvent the issue with different file names.
    Last edited by Jax64; 10th Mar 2019 at 16:09. Reason: EDIT

  10. #35
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    +1 on making stuff that shouldn't be mantleable, not mantleable.

    340MB is acceptable, though a bit odd - TafferPatcher had pretty much all the mods and resources as T2Fix (even that extra texture pack that wasn't liked too much), and it was just over 200MB.


    also, a T2Fix friendly version of EP2 is coming really soon, it seems.


    //yeah, autoloading more scripts should be alright.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 10th Mar 2019 at 16:18.

  11. #36
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    I noticed being able to climb over the fence in Running Interference but never reported it since Riff was AWOL.

    That said, I vehemently disagree. The rules of the game have to be consistent, so whatever new mantle brings into the game has to be allowed.

    Climbing over the gate in Interference doesn't give you any advantage by the way. Quite the opposite.

  12. #37
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    voodoo trying to do what he thinks is best for the game again oh boy

  13. #38
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    well yes, I'm it until I drop dead or someone better comes along. time to accept the reality and stop whining - or to start to actually make and share better stuff.

    as far as mantling is concerned, if something wasn't mantleable in oldDark, it also shouldn't be mantleable in NewDark. new mantle is there to fix all those annoying "I should have made that jump, come on game really" situations, not to give you the power to cheat-mantle the world.


    @Jax64: this is the "you are ruining the game" crowd. welcome to my world.

  14. #39
    Dóttirin klęšist oft móšur möttli
    Registered: Apr 2015
    OMs were not designed for new_mantle, so a fix is okay. But many new FMs are. Does this interfere with FM design/gameplay?

  15. #40
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    we can dml-fingerprint it to only apply to the OMs, if the general consensus is that that's what is desirable.

  16. #41
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2011
    Location: Ferrol - Spain
    I think there should be an option if possible to avoid all the tips in the first three missions on normal difficulty.
    They distract me more than any other thing.
    I still like to play in normal, and once you know how to move around...

  17. #42
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    as far as mantling is concerned, if something wasn't mantleable in oldDark, it also shouldn't be mantleable in NewDark.
    Just like that "totally un-mantleable never in a million year could you climb this" wall in Haunted Cathedral, right?

  18. #43
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    I've been very critical of voodoo in the past but I think he's right this time. You shouldn't be able to mantle on small objects such as torches of wall lights, mostly because it just doesn't make any sense in the first place. The OMs were also made without this in mind. Also, I do believe .dml changes to make certain objects non-mantleable is a much more preferable solution than altering the missions themselves to add pieces of geometry to prevent the player from climbing out of the map.

    Another thing, it's probably already the case but I just don't have much time these days: it'd be nice if all the optional stuff that comes with the patch is ticked off by default, unlike in TFix Full for example. It's fairly annoying to have players just go through the installation process and then see them play your stuff with T2 textures in TG for instance, since the two are stylistically quite different.

  19. #44
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    being critical is good, as long as a productive discussion follows, and things get done properly (or at least in the best way currently possible) in the end. this - not helpful.

    I have no idea about the mentioned wall, but yeah Cathedral needs some good hammering, but boy is that level annoying to actually hammer on.

    Quote Originally Posted by bassoferrol View Post
    I think there should be an option if possible to avoid all the tips in the first three missions on normal difficulty.
    probably a too niche thing to warrant an option in the patcher - remember, overcrowding it with too much stuff is actually a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by skacky View Post
    it'd be nice if all the optional stuff that comes with the patch is ticked off by default
    this is how the current loadout screen looks like:



    I would maybe untick Dromed, as most people won't need that, but the rest should be fine - lets see;
    - mission and resource fix/overhaul: yes and yes, this is the thing you want in your life. I wouldn't even make it optional.
    - carry body mod: why say no to having the proper icons and meshes displayed? this is a full fix if I've ever seen one.
    - interactive candles: again, why not to have the candles working properly, as originally intended?
    - EP1: gets rid of lowres models and textures, good stuff, definitely recommended. would leave it ticked.
    - T2 skies: the vanilla skies are just awful. leave ticked.
    - T2 water: arguably not that awful, but ditto.

    the idea is (as far as I can tell with TFix) to have a nice, rounded up game after patching up in the default configuration. imho, that is the purpose of an universal patcher - it's for people who just want to run one exe, let it do its magic, and end up with a game that plays and looks good, without having to dig through stuff themselves.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 10th Mar 2019 at 18:00.

  20. #45
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2015
    Firstly, I certainly do not want to implement anything that everyone thinks would detract from the game. I welcome any feedback, and I consider such discussion as this important. In this case, criticism will likely be for the benefit of the project.

    As of now, I am only considering disabling mantling for the Cemetary Door and Iron Fence objects, both of which were not able to be climbed without new mantle nor intended to be by all evidence. This is, of course, the problem. It is difficult to say with certainty how the developers intended for this to behave. I am not aware of any fan mission that relies on or features mantling on these, but I very well could be mistaken. I could implement this exclusively for the original missions, but then there would be a difference in gameplay between FMs and OMs. Despite this, is this the consensus?

    As for the default component selection, I agree with having DromEd unticked by default since the average user will likely not want nor use it. Though with the other default components, I remain unsure. All components other than NewDark are fully optional and it may be the case that the default (other than DromEd) ones would be desirable for the majority of users.

  21. #46
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Definitely leave DromEd unticked as some of its input commands may conflict with the game. People who want to DromEd would likely create a separate install for that, but having DromEd in the install you intend to play in is a really bad idea.

    I would also recommend leaving EP, skies, and water unchecked as they don't just "get the game rid of low-res stuff," they effectively change the look of some of its aspects.

  22. #47
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    the thing is, the vast majority of people using the patcher will not touch the default settings - whatever is there, will end up being used by Joe the Taffer, so we don't want to disable good stuff just because some/a few people like their game to be (almost) completely vanilla. those who are not satisfied with the default loadout, are free to deselect stuff they don't want.

    or, to make it simple, some resources looking slightly differently is preferable to them looking strikingly lowres/ugly. the skies would be a good example, the vanilla textures are just a pixelated mess, no one should be forced to look at that, ever.


    unless someone has a concrete example of a fan mission where disabling new mantle on iron fences and cemetery doors would cause serious problems, I'd keep the fixes global. they just shouldn't be mantleable, period.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 10th Mar 2019 at 19:31.

  23. #48
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Decisions should not be made on "unless someone proves against it" is all I'll say.

  24. #49
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    the way I see it, the question we are asking is, "should we deprive the vast majority of a fix/enhancement just because one person in a thousand might have an issue with it/not like it?"

    also there always is that one guy that did something so crazy in his mission that you have no chance of making your patcher ready for it - that's what (fan) mission dmls are for.

  25. #50
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    No, the question is, "should we apply a "fix/enhancement" that literally nobody is asking for to 1000+ FMs where it's bound to have undesirable results?"

    I've offered my help to Jax64 and will test the OMs extensively to make sure that the fix actually serves as a fix rather than an arbitrary change. But as far as FMs are concerned, I am adamantly against such a blanket change.

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