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View Poll Results: For the Thief 2 20th Anniversary Contest (TMA20), which would you prefer?

Voters
132. You may not vote on this poll
  • Authors are limited to only stock and stock-derived resources (like with the TDP20 Contest)

    93 70.45%
  • Authors are allowed to use any resources they wish

    39 29.55%
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Results 51 to 75 of 157

Thread: Thief 2 20th Anniversary Contest format - we need your vote!

  1. #51
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2011
    Location: ���&#5671
    ^ty

  2. #52
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    It's fairly... how should I put it diplomatically, disheartening to see people say the poll is either pointless or that the community is irrational with their choice (for a poll that isn't closed yet). Yandros and I thought it'd be a nice thing to give everyone the choice to weigh in on the rulesets, but if we're going to have reactions like this I think it's best to just disregard everyone's opinions at this point.

  3. #53
    New Member
    Registered: Jul 2008
    Location: Poland
    Trying to draw a nice comparison here - cars were invented over a century ago and they've certainly come a long way since. Does that mean we should want automated vehicles at a vintage car fair? That's how I personally envisage the "anniversary" contests - we come back to and celebrate the old shape of something that has since changed much. Precisely because modern cars are a norm nowadays.

    I've no doubt at all that lifting the restriction would kill the classic vibe in majority of entries. Not to mention making the contest quite... ordinary?

    To remain clear here - I'd love any contest if there are as many quality missions as this year. It's just the stock resources make much more sense to me for that occasion.
    Last edited by andyln; 7th Feb 2019 at 13:48.

  4. #54
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2009
    Location: Cracow, Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by skacky View Post
    It's fairly... how should I put it diplomatically, disheartening to see people say the poll is either pointless or that the community is irrational with their choice (for a poll that isn't closed yet). Yandros and I thought it'd be a nice thing to give everyone the choice to weigh in on the rulesets, but if we're going to have reactions like this I think it's best to just disregard everyone's opinions at this point.
    I think I might be one of the addressed ppl, in above post. I'm sorry if my comment resulted in such misunderstanding. Maybe I should rephrase myself. The idea about the poll itself was very good. What I was trying to say is the state of current poll results and its discussion. Since I approve both sides of the discussion and I read convincing arguments from each group, my emotions told me there is no point in arguing any longer. Aspecially when the solution to the problem is fairly easy and is close at hand. That's why you should expect Thief Guild hosted contest, probably at the same time.

    The discussions at Thief Guild Team are ongoing, but I can already say we are planning to do that. Remaining questions are "when" and "how" and to know the answers I am keen to hear other ppl opinion.

  5. #55
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    Two contests at the same time is a really bad idea.

  6. #56
    Does that mean we should want automated vehicles at a vintage car fair?
    Describing it as vintage car fair actually says a lot about it all. Although the biggest problem is that it's a vintage car fair because you want it to be, not because it has to be.

    Or, if I were to stick to that analogy, the latest vintage car fair was full of quite rusty and unkempt cars, instead of nice, shiny, and refurbished ones. Why would one want to host such thing again?


    Another contest might be an interesting idea, since there's clearly a large group that feels neglected in that regard.

  7. #57
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2012
    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post

    Or, if I were to stick to that analogy, the latest vintage car fair was full of quite rusty and unkempt cars, instead of nice, shiny, and refurbished ones. Why would one want to host such thing again?
    No, the latest vintage car fair had nice, shiny, polished cars in it, but lovingly kept intact rather than having parts replaced with newly manufactured ones. Just pure loving hobbyist craftsmanship that made the very best out of the original parts without the need to add anything extraneous, and created something amazing in the process.

    The TG anniversary contest spawned some truly great missions (Sound of a Burrick in a Room, Catacombs of Knoss, Rose Garden, Heart and Soul, Shadow Play....) that have great visuals despite the limitation to stock resources (detailed architecture and creative use of stock textures), and great level design with open exploration and well laid-out areas.

    If you don't enjoy missions like those, maybe Thief just isn't the kind of game you enjoy.

  8. #58
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Vintage or new cars, some drivers will just take them for a test drive and never touch them again.

  9. #59
    New Member
    Registered: Oct 2018
    I think one only has to compare the TDP20AC submissions to Thief 1/Gold OMs to see that this recent contest was definitely not guilty of an insular or backward design ethos, driven only by nostalgia. The original games are full of boxy geometry with poorly placed brushes. Some of the TDP20AC submissions were reminiscent of early FMs (Dewinder Manor, Wolfgang Handspiegel etc.), and many of the submissions were more beautiful, more elegant and well laid out that any OM from Thief Gold or The Metal Age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    Or, if I were to stick to that analogy, the latest vintage car fair was full of quite rusty and unkempt cars, instead of nice, shiny, and refurbished ones.
    Judith, as far as I am aware, you haven't played all of the submissions. That's perfectly fine, and nobody can tell you what you should enjoy or how you should spend your time. However, I think it's very unfair to claim that all of the submissions were 'rusty and unkempt' because you personally didn't enjoy the ones you played. If you haven't tried it, I would recommend Shadow Play as a pure Thief experience that isn't limited by 'outdated' design, and also not overly big or intentionally confusing.

  10. #60
    If you don't enjoy missions like those, maybe Thief just isn't the kind of game you enjoy.
    Not sure what made you think you can make such assumption. It's not up to you to decide that. I enjoy original Thief 1-3 gameplay, but none of the contest missions I played had that. So yeah, maybe in that regard the fresh coat of paint wouldn't change much. Still, stock resource only looks more like gatekeeping and catering only to selected creators, who already had their needs fulfilled in last contest.

  11. #61
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2009
    Location: Cracow, Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by Brethren View Post
    Two contests at the same time is a really bad idea.
    Let's schedule it right after the anniversary contest results, maybe?

  12. #62
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    Still, stock resource only looks more like gatekeeping and catering only to selected creators, who already had their needs fulfilled in last contest.
    Sorry but that couldn't be further from the truth. The main reason why the previous contest was limited to mostly stock was so that beginners could join without having to learn how to import textures, meshes or objects. DromEd is an intimidating editor and mapping for Thief really isn't an easy task, so this decision was the opposite of gatekeeping. And I like to believe I was right, considering the amount of new authors who published their first FMs during the contest. Swiz, mtk, Psych0sis, Jayrude, Schlock, vfig and McTaffer. That's quite a bit.

  13. #63
    New Member
    Registered: Oct 2018
    Can I just reiterate what has already been said in basically every other thread about the 20th Anniversary Contest for TDP: that it was an absolute triumph of passion and creativity? From what I can gauge in the few general threads and all the specific mission threads about it, the overwhelming majority opinion is that it's one of the best things ever produced by members of this forum. As Skacky noted, it invigorated so many people to make an FM for the first time, and for a twenty year old game! I personally found that almost every mission competed with or far outstripped even the best OMs in terms of quality.

    Seriously, to everyone who organised or participated in the TDP20AC contest, thank you so much, and thank you for organising this next one for The Metal Age. It's amazing that there are so many people willing to engage with this relatively niche endeavour after so many years.

  14. #64
    I personally found that almost every mission competed with or far outstripped even the best OMs in terms of quality.
    Now that is living in a self-congratulatory bubble, I'm afraid. Rarely any FM is on par with actual mission design of OMs, in terms of things like open-ended layout, player choice, pacing, clear visual language and consistent use of the systems. Instead, there are arcadey platforming sections, obscure puzzles, prolonged lockpick times, super tight guard patrolling, lenghty readables or exposition dumps in both text and cutscenes, and many, many more symptoms of not learning the basics. All of this is mistaken as being better than OMs, more elite, difficult, or sophisticated. At the same time, most of FM threads are several pages long not because of the praise, but because players got stuck so often and in so many places. Since any design is about communication, and game design is mostly about teaching and rewarding players, most of these missions are a failure at communication. What's funny is that even the most prolific veteran FM makers still make such mistakes, so they haven't grown much as designers throughout the years, they just released many missions.
    Last edited by Judith; 8th Feb 2019 at 05:26.

  15. #65
    Desperately Dodgy Moderator
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: Fields of bluegrass
    While you're more than welcome to express your opinions about the contest missions and the design quality of FM's in general, Judith, I think it's safe to say that the majority of players here disagree with your criticisms, which, frankly, usually come across as smug and condescending. I'm not saying your criticisms of the lackluster gameplay design and lack of growth in that regard among many authors here, myself included, aren't wholly without merit - I'm just saying that most people here don't appear to care.

  16. #66
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    Now that is living in a self-congratulatory bubble, I'm afraid. Rarely any FM is on par with actual mission design of OMs, in terms of things like open-ended layout, player choice, pacing, clear visual language and consistent use of the systems.
    Quite literally half the contest missions are more expansive, give more player freedom, contain interesting locales, with solid structures in their experiences and were far above MANY of the original OMs.

    Your argument also contains huge leaps of logic that anyone would have to make to accept. Suddenly using custom objects and textures will make the map layouts and structuring of the objectives any less "confusing"? Maybe for someone who can't open up their objectives page, read the name of the place they should work towards, and then look at the map and work towards it, but perhaps that's a little overwhelming.

    The rest of your post just comes off as "holier than thou" and from someone who I'm fairly certain will not participate at all either way.

  17. #67
    While you're more than welcome to express your opinions about the contest missions and the design quality of FM's in general, Judith, I think it's safe to say that the majority of players here disagree with your criticisms, which, frankly, usually come across as smug and condescending. I'm not saying your criticisms of the lackluster gameplay design and lack of growth in that regard among many authors here, myself included, aren't wholly without merit - I'm just saying that most people here don't appear to care.
    I kinda suspected that, that was more of reaction to the smugness of JarlFrank's "maybe Thief's not for you" and starry-eyedness of DirkBogan. But at this point, it has little to do with actual contest, whether with custom assets or not.

  18. #68
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    @Judith - Not to pile on too much, but it's hard to take all your criticism seriously when you've only played 10-20% of the contest missions in total. I know you think your time is valuable (as if everyone else's isn't?), but if that's the case then why do you waste time posting here, making mass judgments on missions you've barley played and aren't that interested in to start with?

    Edit: On the heels of that, I'll just say that I think you really should play some of the other missions. There are several really good ones that you haven't mentioned, and they might change your opinion.
    Last edited by Brethren; 8th Feb 2019 at 12:24.

  19. #69
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Judith, as I said earlier, I agree that there's a little bit of an insular design bubble in the Thief community.

    But it is nowhere near as bad as you make it to be. And as Brethren said, I seriously doubt you've given a fair chance to all the missions in this contest. There IS some excellent, mature game design in this contest. So much so that I've wondered if some of the anonymous or aliased entries came from designers we'd lost to Arkane or elsewhere. (I don't actually think so, but the quality of some of the design made me consider the notion.)

    Just to isolate one simple, quick, concrete example: A problem with many Thief missions is how reliant they are on quick save and quick load, particularly when verticality and Thief's variation of first-person platforming have become so popular in the community. The Sound Of A Burrick In A Room features some crazy vertical gameplay, requiring death-defying leaps at dizzying heights. But the most daring leaps are made above a canal, and the clever connectivity of the mission makes it so in most cases if you miss the jump/mantle or Thief's zany rope physics punishes you, you can fall into the water, then use a series of fun shortcuts back to where you were (...or the fall leads you to all new discoveries).

    My sense about you and your posting habits is that you're less interested in contributing to the community or improving it, and more interested in inflating your ego on a video gaming forum. Sometimes it seems like all you do is smugly criticise everything. Even to me, someone who agrees with some of your basic points, you come off as adolescent rather than compelling or persuasive.

    Show us why we should respect you, in a productive manner, rather than constantly, belligerently telling us, or we'll just think you're the poster child for the emperor's new clothes.

  20. #70
    I already said what issues I had with missions I played, none of which had any substantial rebuttal. I've also been linking to several "classic" tutorials in misc discussions over the years. But Yandros' version is more probable, most people just don't care. And that's fine, as long as you don't talk yourself into believing that your're better than the devs, or that Thief isn't for people who don't appreciate FMs enough, because that's rather delusional.

  21. #71
    L'architecte de Rocksbourg
    Registered: Nov 2005
    Location: Narbonne, France
    You didn't explain enough to give a substantial rebuttal to be honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    Last I remember, I gave up on "Darkness walk with us", which was pretty cool and fairly accessible, but the difficulty spiked when things turned out more outwordly. Arcade sections and platforming will always be a bad idea with engine and player controls this ancient.
    I've never felt frustrated by the controls and movements in Thief, with new mantle I'd say it's even fairly good. A matter of taste I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    I gave up on "Downtowne funk" out of boredom, it felt big for sake of being big, and lockpicking time on even most average locks seemed so long, that it seemed someone just wanted players to clock a long playthrough above anything else.
    Again a matter of taste to me. It didn't feel especially boring or that big to me. Long lockpicking time sure is an issue in FMs, but it didn't strike me as awful in this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    "Whistling of the Gears" that opened up so fast and overwhelmed the player so much that choosing a way to go was almost impossible.
    Whistling of the gears is a masterpiece of exploration. You could argue movement and climbing is a bit tricky, but if you want a linear experience there's thi4f for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    There was one other mission that was so tight with patrols and timing, and it was hard to figure out where to go next, so I gave up after falling into a stream several times (don't remember the name, sorry).
    Tight patrols can be an issue, but it's tough to tell without more info, like the actual name of the mission...

    Overall, the very few criticisms you've written in this thread seem more petty than anything else. I really don't think it's about a design bubble.

  22. #72
    I Think the name was Rose Garden but I'm not 100% sure. Still, the above isn't substantial rebuttal either, it's more like playing defensive relativist. The above is a design bubble in that sense that it doesn't go beyond early 90s design at best (and "evil dungeon master" at worst). The design and awareness went miles ahead since.
    Last edited by Judith; 8th Feb 2019 at 17:18.

  23. #73
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: Southern,California
    thank you marbleman i hope others read it and understand what i mean

  24. #74

  25. #75
    L'architecte de Rocksbourg
    Registered: Nov 2005
    Location: Narbonne, France
    I never claimed to do a substantial rebuttal, there isn't much to work with in the first place and my english isn't good enough for me to try such a discussion. Anyway, Thief is a 90s game, with an engine and design elements from the 90s. You make it sounds like it's a god awful thing. If we really cared about modern game design, most of us wouldn't work on thief to begin with, we'd mod some other game.

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