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View Poll Results: For the Thief 2 20th Anniversary Contest (TMA20), which would you prefer?

Voters
145. You may not vote on this poll
  • Authors are limited to only stock and stock-derived resources (like with the TDP20 Contest)

    104 71.72%
  • Authors are allowed to use any resources they wish

    41 28.28%
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Results 101 to 125 of 162

Thread: Thief 2 20th Anniversary Contest format - we need your vote!

  1. #101
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post
    It's not something. It's harassment. Let's call what happened with its real name, right?
    Ok, by your logic calling the launch of the contest a "failure of epic proportions" and embarrassing was harassment towards the contest organizers because YOU were too impatient to wait like 2 hours.

  2. #102
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: Argentina
    It's not harassment when it's self defense. In any case you started it, with no clear reason why. Let's call what happened by its real name.

  3. #103
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2018
    To a large extent, the desire to make a Thief-style game with a game engine that allows for to more recent innovations in game design was realised by The Dark Mod, especially the standalone variant.

    I am all for minimisation of common design flaws, however I wonder how many of these antiquated aspects are simply inevitable if somebody chooses to make an FM in DromEd using NewDark. This is a very particular set of tools, and a very limited one by modern standards. I don't believe that modern gaming represents a cesspool of mediocrity, but many of the positive innovations that have occurred in the past two decades would be difficult or impossible to implement in the software used to make Thief FMs. DromEd is enough of a headache when just trying to make an unambitious level!

    One could argue that this is symptomatic of an insular community who is recalcitrant or hostile to change... if that is a factor, I think it's a minor one. I think the real limitations with making FMs are systemic, i.e. the editing software and game engine. If you accept the premise, "I want to make a mission for Thief 1/2", there's a certain number of old-school restrictions you have to deal with. Those who want to avoid these restrictions have found creative outlets elsewhere, like making Dark Mod missions or using more modern APIs to realise their vision.

    I'm not making a prescriptive judgement here, saying what people SHOULD or SHOULD NOT do. Nor am I hoping to absolve or excuse poor design. I'm just trying to clarify the circumstances as I understand them.

  4. #104
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Quote Originally Posted by Psych0sis View Post
    Ok, by your logic calling the launch of the contest a "failure of epic proportions" and embarrassing was harassment towards the contest organizers because YOU were too impatient to wait like 2 hours.
    I am a gamer. I'm impatient. Impatience is a virtue of modern gaming, which centers on instant gratification.

    This is one of the things we should consider when we create our Fan Missions. They have to be rewarding, rather than frustrating and time wasting. Endless lockpicks, hard puzzles, having to come here and ask for guidance isn't cool.

    I love sucking my time into computer games, but I hate when computer games are an obvious time suck.

    Thus said, this discussion is already sucking of my time. Gnight.

  5. #105
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2018
    I am also sceptical about the notion that, because some players have difficulty with some sections of a mission, the mission is therefore poorly designed. There have been a number of instances where I have been totally lost playing an FM or OM, found that nobody else had that problem I did, and eventually realised I was missing something completely obvious. Conversely, I have seen people asking for help with things I didn't even realise were intended to be difficult, or that I solved instantly. The same can be said for the test chambers in Portal 1/2, and the bosses in Dark Souls -- games that I think many people would consider very good examples of game design.

    What I think this reveals is that what players find challenging is very subjective and highly dependent on the individual. One person's 'oh, was that boss supposed to be hard?' is another person's 'how could they make such an unfair boss?'

  6. #106
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: Argentina
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post
    This is one of the things we should consider when we create our Fan Missions. They have to be rewarding, rather than frustrating and time wasting.
    You sure consider your own criteria, do you?

  7. #107
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: Southern,California
    i got a big question did thief 2 om game have camvator or was that a fan mission invention?

  8. #108
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    Quote Originally Posted by downwinder View Post
    i got a big question did thief 2 om game have camvator or was that a fan mission invention?
    Woah, that's a really big and important question!

    But the answer is no, there is no point in the game where a camvator sequence was done. And honestly, they are the worst thing I have ever seen in fan missions, and thankfully we're spared from them for the most part.

  9. #109
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: Southern,California
    thank you so much for reply,but please don't be so harsh on camvator ,i happen to like them a lot

    you can tell me the camvator with guard running after you take his drink and he knocks over a tree is not one of the funnyest moments ever in a fan mission then he passes out in front of his job so epic,mission with glaziers organization

  10. #110
    Classical Master 2008
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Civitas Quinque Ecclesiae HU
    The camvator is entirely a fan community invention. I don't like them, but the fact that they can be done is part of the Dromed magic.

  11. #111
    For the record, I didn't like Thief 2014, and if you go to the proper forum section, you'll find my posts in e.g. B_T's threads. I am aware of what im sims are about and T2014 didn't do a homework in this case, or decided to ignore key aspects of im sims to its own demise.

    That said, I have nothing against good linear games or first-person adventure games (What remains of Edith Finch, Soma, etc.), because that format can be used to do something well, i.e. to tell a certain story (as opposed to letting the player generate his own stories by interacting with im sims systems).

    IMO engine has little to do with design problems, although of course there's direct connection between technical capabilities. But the design problems of FMs vs OMs or other games could be illustrated by something as simple as MGS2's Virtual Missions graphics

  12. #112
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    I personally think that if Thief (2014) preserved the old lore, was less linear and actually had all of the cool stuff - like swooping (yes, it's a good innovation in a world where instant gratification rules), the game would had been more successful.

    I hope Eidos Montreal will reconsider releasing another title at some point in the future, learning from their mistakes.

    Btw nice meme over there. I thoroughly enjoyed it, thanks.

  13. #113
    Well, so much passion here!
    I voted for "use of any resources". Stock resources have already been used for TDP Anniversary. No need (for me) to do the same contest for T2. Just let authors celebrate T2 Anniversary how they want. It's not a question of what is better in term of architecture or any other technical stuff. No restrictions, if you want to use only stock resources, go. If you want to create some, go. The sole purpose is to celebrate T2's birth with all different visions.

  14. #114
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Setting aside passion and drama, can somebody explain to me the rationality to use stock-only resources?

    Somebody said that the main purpose is to attract new dromedders who won't need to learn how to import custom textures and object. But even though DromEd is quite buggy and annoying sometimes, putting custom resources is not that hard. Most of the downloadable resources, like those hosted on the Thief Object Repository, have clear descriptions on how to use them. You just follow the instructions.

  15. #115
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2011
    Location: ���&#5671
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post
    Setting aside passion and drama, can somebody explain to me the rationality to use stock-only resources?

    Somebody said that the main purpose is to attract new dromedders who won't need to learn how to import custom textures and object. But even though DromEd is quite buggy and annoying sometimes, putting custom resources is not that hard. Most of the downloadable resources, like those hosted on the Thief Object Repository, have clear descriptions on how to use them. You just follow the instructions.
    The idea behind the stock-only resources is to celebrate the 20 years of Thief 2 by putting yourself into the original developper's shoes and facing their own, it wasn't explicitly said as everyone sorta-understood the idea but I know how hard it is to read between the lines, especially when you're impatient

    As for the new dromeders idea, it's not just about putting custom resources; it's not that I hard I agree but it's harder to use them correctly. You have a ton of FM using custom resources just for the sake of being custom and the results is almost always bad.

  16. #116
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2014
    Location: Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by Squadarofl View Post
    The idea behind the stock-only resources is to celebrate the 20 years of Thief 2 by putting yourself into the original developper's shoes and facing their own, it wasn't explicitly said as everyone sorta-understood the idea but I know how hard it is to read between the lines, especially when you're impatient
    New restriction then. No New Dark allowed.

  17. #117
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2011
    Location: ���&#5671
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurhhan View Post
    New restriction then. No New Dark allowed.
    That's not the point and you know it. Look, everyone understood that you don't like stock resources but we can really live without your smarty quips

  18. #118
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Location: Ireland/Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post
    I am a gamer. I'm impatient. Impatience is a virtue of modern gaming, which centers on instant gratification.
    Man, don't do it to yourself... Let me remind you this one, as a warning:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8pR1rZZHEs

  19. #119
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Quote Originally Posted by Squadarofl View Post
    That's not the point and you know it. Look, everyone understood that you don't like stock resources but we can really live without your smarty quips
    If you really want it to be like walking into the devs shoes, then... the experience should be as close as possible. And that includes earliest possible version of DromED, no NewDark. I'd go further and say that perhaps everything (not just the editor, but the game engine, models, graphics) was developed simultaneously so these devs didn't have all stock resources available.

  20. #120
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Quote Originally Posted by PinkDot View Post
    Man, don't do it to yourself... Let me remind you this one, as a warning:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8pR1rZZHEs
    Oh, one of my favourites! Pity I don't speak German so I don't know what this kid's screaming

  21. #121
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2011
    Location: ���&#5671
    Sorry my sentence was cut in the middle and I didn't took notice of it earlier
    I meant to say
    " (...) by putting yourself into the original developper's shoes and facing their own scarcity of resources while having better tool".

  22. #122
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: Argentina
    Yes let's organize a contest where fm authors have to use old tools such as OldDark and the first Dromed version. Of course everyone who play the entries have to do a fresh re-install of the game in order to play them! you know, to re-create the experience! What an amazing idea

  23. #123
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    I'd rather see a contest with an untested idea. Like the Water contest. Or even the Crap contest. Speaking about stock resources - well, it's not bad, but we've already had the SSR contest. Been there, done that.

  24. #124
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Too bad nobody cares about your opinion after the stunt you pulled at the start of TDP contest !

  25. #125
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    So, because of a poorly worded (but honest) statement, I am unable to offer good feedback? I'm not interested in your whataboutism.

    Sorry, it's not my fault some people are thin-skinned.

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