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View Poll Results: For the Thief 2 20th Anniversary Contest (TMA20), which would you prefer?

Voters
126. You may not vote on this poll
  • Authors are limited to only stock and stock-derived resources (like with the TDP20 Contest)

    90 71.43%
  • Authors are allowed to use any resources they wish

    36 28.57%
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Thread: Thief 2 20th Anniversary Contest format - we need your vote!

  1. #126
    Member
    Registered: May 2017
    Location: USA
    BT, you can start your own contest. If you want to invest your time and energy into it, and think you can energize others to get on board, I say go for it! If you’ve got a killer idea for a fresh contest rule, it shouldn’t be too hard to convince a few mappers to sign up.

    But Yandros and Skacky are the ones spearheading this one. I, for one, am grateful for their efforts. The vote doesn’t look like it’ll go “my way” (unless the 2.5:1 vote ratio reverses within the next month), but it is with it is. I hope it will be as successful as the last one was!

  2. #127
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Quote Originally Posted by trefoilknot View Post
    BT, you can start your own contest. If you want to invest your time and energy into it, and think you can energize others to get on board, I say go for it! If you’ve got a killer idea for a fresh contest rule, it shouldn’t be too hard to convince a few mappers to sign up.

    But Yandros and Skacky are the ones spearheading this one. I, for one, am grateful for their efforts. The vote doesn’t look like it’ll go “my way” (unless the 2.5:1 vote ratio reverses within the next month), but it is with it is. I hope it will be as successful as the last one was!
    Don't get me wrong - I wish them success with running the next contest, and I hope they'll manage delivering the content better than last time.

    However this thread is about public feedback. This should also mean feedback from people they don't want to hear from. Being biased isn't good - especially if it's a bias towards people who offer only praise.

  3. #128
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: Argentina
    Was the content of last time badly delivered? As I recall, I managed to play every contest entry and having a great time (even with the minimal, announced delay), and I'm 100% sure everyone else did as well.

    Unless of course you're still throwing a tantrum at skacky because you thought disrespecting contest organizers and participants was a great move that would have no consequences.

  4. #129
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: Full on Kevel's mom
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post
    I am a gamer. I'm impatient. Impatience is a virtue of modern gaming, which centers on instant gratification.
    Thief has never been about instant gratification. In fact, that's what made it work so well in an era of shooters like Quake and Half Life. Nothing wrong with games like that, but Thief is supposed to be the opposite. It's about patience and biding your time, waiting for the right moment. That's how it's always been and it's why Thief works so well. There are plenty of other games that give exactly the instant gratification you seek. This is one of the things that makes Thief unique and worthwhile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post
    I hope they'll manage delivering the content better than last time.
    What the *&%$ are you talking about, man?

  5. #130
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    There's a slight difference between criticizing someone's work and a direct ad hominem attack. So far I've done only the first. Failure to understand that is, once again, not my problem.

  6. #131
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: Full on Kevel's mom
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post
    There's a slight difference between criticizing someone's work and a direct ad hominem attack. So far I've done only the first. Failure to understand that is, once again, not my problem.
    Please explain how calling the last contest a failure of epic proportions was just criticism. Or constructive even.

    This type of embarrassing shit is why I hate that people get us confused with each other. Jesus, man. Grow the *&^$ up.

  7. #132
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    I have explained it several times. Now I'm going to say it for a final time:

    1. I never said the last contest was a failure of epic proportion. I used that phrase only once - about the launch. Not the contest itself.

    2. I've already said in several threads on Facebook, as well on Twitter, that the contest is a success content-wise, and the amount of released missions is staggering. A lot of people choose to ignore that. Their problem.

    3. So, about the delay to release the missions. Maybe "failure of epic proportions" was too exaggerated. I am not going to reword myself anyway. After long hours of waiting, this is how I felt. Do I think they did a poor job about communicating with the public? Yes, I do. I wasn't able to find the message the missions were going to be delayed anyway. So I trusted the original source. They had to explain it better. Sorry, but this is what I think. I think that an event that attracts a lot of public attention would better have a countdown clock (which is quite a useful tool when gamer expect a release). If they want, I offer my help for the next contest to communicate with the community about these details. I'll do that gladly.

    Okay, I explained myself. Now do what you want - mock me, or make dank memes - I don't care.

  8. #133
    Member
    Registered: May 2017
    Location: USA
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post

    However this thread is about public feedback. This should also mean feedback from people they don't want to hear from. Being biased isn't good - especially if it's a bias towards people who offer only praise.
    The feedback they're asking for is your vote. By all means, vote! But when 72% of the community votes the other way... About a month and a half ago, we had the open forum discussion about the rules---it went about as productively as you could expect---so the contest organizers decided to just let a vote settle it. We're in that process now.

  9. #134
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post
    3. So, about the delay to release the missions. Maybe "failure of epic proportions" was too exaggerated. I am not going to reword myself anyway. After long hours of waiting, this is how I felt. Do I think they did a poor job about communicating with the public? Yes, I do. I wasn't able to find the message the missions were going to be delayed anyway. So I trusted the original source. They had to explain it better. Sorry, but this is what I think. I think that an event that attracts a lot of public attention would better have a countdown clock (which is quite a useful tool when gamer expect a release). If they want, I offer my help for the next contest to communicate with the community about these details. I'll do that gladly.
    I just want to explain this to you, because I really don't think you get it at all. Nobody cared about the "delayed launch" except for you. Nobody. You're treating this as if it was some large scale media event, and as if this contest was being run by some gigantic corporation like Blizzard. It's contest by a fan community for a 20 year old game. The media doesn't care, the general public doesn't care (I'm referring to the launch, not the contest itself). It's made for fans, by fans. Everyone else just waited patiently until the missions came out. You are the only one who appeared even slightly upset.

    You really need to reassess the way you're looking at things, because you are WAY off the mark. Your perception is completely skewed. There's no need for a countdown clock - just patience and common sense.

    It's also very amusing to see you offering your "help" for the next contest. After all the things you've said here, why would anyone be the slightest bit interested in that? Just another case of you not understanding what's going on around you.

  10. #135
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Quote Originally Posted by Brethren View Post
    It's also very amusing to see you offering your "help" for the next contest. After all the things you've said here, why would anyone be the slightest bit interested in that? Just another case of you not understanding what's going on around you.
    Oh, wait, let me guess. Because I'm possess certain skills, and not because of my personality?

  11. #136
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2011
    Location: ���&#5671
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post
    Oh, wait, let me guess. Because I'm possess certain skills, and not because of my personality?
    Now I'm curious. What are those skills?

  12. #137
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Quote Originally Posted by Squadarofl View Post
    Now I'm curious. What are those skills?
    Where's my meme?

  13. #138
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2011
    Location: ���&#5671
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post
    Where's my meme?
    Deleted by a moderator I think. But I can upload it somwhere else if you want
    What are those skills?

  14. #139
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Yes, I want it. Just fix my nose please, it's not crooked

    Let me guess - I have a decade and a half experience with Thief/DromEd/creative writing... Actually, I wanted to tell you I'm not happy how a certain group of people (many of them registered post-2010) treats older members on this board. It has already been hugely disturbing to watch how they treated Cardia for his FTM mission. Now, they've already been jumping on me for my "epic failure" comment. Memes and jokes are cool, direct insults are not - no matter if they're here or on other platforms. The problem is that we're not treated equally, mkay? Somebody deliberately names me and shames me on Twitter, and a lot of people have no problem with this. Yet they blame me for my "epic failure" comment, even if it's not insulting. Clearly a double standard. Either treat us equally, or don't bother with any of us. I know I don't belong to your hug-club, but I'm still an old TTLG'er, rright?

  15. #140
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    How exactly will a decade and a half experience with Thief/DromEd/creative writing help you communicate with the community?

  16. #141
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Quote Originally Posted by marbleman View Post
    How exactly will a decade and a half experience with Thief/DromEd/creative writing help you communicate with the community?
    Okay, I give up. I admit that I have a certain problem with soft skills But I'm still learning By 2020 my soft skills can improve :P

  17. #142
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: Full on Kevel's mom
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post
    Yes, I want it. Just fix my nose please, it's not crooked

    Let me guess - I have a decade and a half experience with Thief/DromEd/creative writing... Actually, I wanted to tell you I'm not happy how a certain group of people (many of them registered post-2010) treats older members on this board. It has already been hugely disturbing to watch how they treated Cardia for his FTM mission. Now, they've already been jumping on me for my "epic failure" comment. Memes and jokes are cool, direct insults are not - no matter if they're here or on other platforms. The problem is that we're not treated equally, mkay? Somebody deliberately names me and shames me on Twitter, and a lot of people have no problem with this. Yet they blame me for my "epic failure" comment, even if it's not insulting. Clearly a double standard. Either treat us equally, or don't bother with any of us. I know I don't belong to your hug-club, but I'm still an old TTLG'er, rright?
    You are incapable of self-reflection, my dude. Play the victim card if you want, but you started it. The "epic failure" comment was absolutely insulting. Not sure how it could be taken any other way. It was non-constructive and just kind of childish and nasty. Not fitting of someone your age. Not sure how you could expect to be treated any other way after that, honestly.

    Nothing to do with being a hugbox, either- this isn't the same thing as critiquing someone's mission. This is just throwing a temper tantrum (for a retarded reason) and then holding resentment after you were put in your place.

  18. #143
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: Argentina
    Butthurt of epic proportions.

  19. #144
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Quote Originally Posted by Random_Taffer View Post
    You are incapable of self-reflection, my dude. Play the victim card if you want, but you started it. The "epic failure" comment was absolutely insulting.
    I have a spare napkin. I can offer it to anyone who wants it.

  20. #145
    Desperately Dodgy Moderator
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: Fields of bluegrass
    I will be moving all of these vitriolic and somewhat off-topic posts to their own thread when I have the chance. I am just starting a long day of work, though, so you will have to wait - something not everyone here is good at.

    I will remind everyone here that the TDP20 contest missions were released precisely within the window I announced before the deadline, and not even a single minute later. BT, you just objected to the fact that it was some number of hours after the deadline, I guess because you expected me and Brethren to get up at 3am our time on a Saturday to do it so you wouldn't have to sit around waiting in your time zone. How you can continue to expect anyone to consider that a reasonable viewpoint is honestly beyond me.

  21. #146
    I am a gamer. I'm impatient. Impatience is a virtue of modern gaming, which centers on instant gratification.

    This is one of the things we should consider when we create our Fan Missions. They have to be rewarding, rather than frustrating and time wasting. Endless lockpicks, hard puzzles, having to come here and ask for guidance isn't cool.
    While I think that's anything but a virtue, a question of pacing and valuing the time of your audience is important. Since most of FM players have jobs, spouses, family duties, etc., do you really need an 8-hour campaign (or mission) to say what you want to say, or you just want players to spend a long time with your maps (because you worked so hard on them)? How about 1-3 hours of quality time instead? The build to play time ratio will always be unfair to creators, but that's something you can't do much about.

  22. #147
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    While I think that's anything but a virtue, a question of pacing and valuing the time of your audience is important. Since most of FM players have jobs, spouses, family duties, etc., do you really need an 8-hour campaign (or mission) to say what you want to say, or you just want players to spend a long time with your maps (because you worked so hard on them)? How about 1-3 hours of quality time instead? The build to play time ratio will always be unfair to creators, but that's something you can't do much about.
    That's an excellent question! I can speak only about myself, though. As you know, I am focused on short FMs. Although some people could say that my FMs are short, because I'm already too impatient and that's why I'm unable to create a large one, I also tend to like shorter missions.

    There's always that problem - the developer is going to spend on the mission much more time than the player. So yes, my missions are relatively short. But on Lord Alexander's mansion (my latest FM, released last year), I worked for several long grueling weeks - just to create a level worth of 20-30 mins gametime.

    The developer (including me) always want for the players to spend in the FM as much time as possible. But there are good and bad ways to do this. Good ways include a captivating story with interesting puzzles. So you don't feel the boredom and get impatient. Bad ways include ridiculously long lockpicks, idiotically placed hidden switches and rings in giant bushes, etc.

    Thus said, there are certain well-made missions which don't play on your nerves, even if they're long. The first that comes to mind is Rowena's Curse. This is an excellent mission in every aspect: atmosphere, AI, storyline, puzzles, etc. It all depends on whether the author will succeed in capturing the player's imagination. That's it.

    As I said : I love sucking my time into computer games, but I hate when they're an obvious time suck.

  23. #148
    New Member
    Registered: Sep 2015
    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    (...) do you really need an 8-hour campaign (or mission) to say what you want to say, or you just want players to spend a long time with your maps (because you worked so hard on them)?(...)
    You want authors to respect the time of players, yet your 2nd assumption here is pretty disrespectful towards the FMs makers. What I hope for is that every FM author makes missions mainly for themselves, as in missions which they would enjoy playing the most. It may not be what the most players end up liking, but it will be a work of passion. And also this way, the group of players who share similar tastes with the author gets an experience almost crafted specifically for them.

  24. #149
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: Full on Kevel's mom
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post
    The developer (including me) always want for the players to spend in the FM as much time as possible. But there are good and bad ways to do this. Good ways include a captivating story with interesting puzzles. So you don't feel the boredom and get impatient. Bad ways include ridiculously long lockpicks, idiotically placed hidden switches and rings in giant bushes, etc.
    Nah, I want them to want to spend more time in my FM, but I don't want to arbitrarily require it. I like putting a lot of extra side questy type stuff in my maps so that players can spend more time in them and feel accomplished, but I don't want to require it. Sometimes high loot goals are a quick and lazy way to force more time spent. I've definitely made that mistake before.

  25. #150
    You want authors to respect the time of players, yet your 2nd assumption here is pretty disrespectful towards the FMs makers.
    Not really, it's a mental exercise and being honest with yourself. That's what writers do: they trim out the excess, until all that's left is the stuff necessary. Same thing happens in video games when you're narrowing down the scope.

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