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View Poll Results: For the Thief 2 20th Anniversary Contest (TMA20), which would you prefer?

Voters
145. You may not vote on this poll
  • Authors are limited to only stock and stock-derived resources (like with the TDP20 Contest)

    104 71.72%
  • Authors are allowed to use any resources they wish

    41 28.28%
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Thread: Thief 2 20th Anniversary Contest format - Poll Closed

  1. #1
    Desperately Dodgy Moderator
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: Fields of bluegrass

    Thief 2 20th Anniversary Contest format - Poll Closed

    There will be a Thief 2: TMA 20th Anniversary Contest (henceforth TMA20) which will run from 23 Mar 2019 until 23 Mar 2020, when the entries will be due, following the full year allotted for the T1 Anniversary Contest, which was so successful. This contest has been discussed previously in this thread if you care to read it.

    In this poll, we are asking you to vote on whether you would prefer the TMA20 Contest to be limited to stock and stock-derived resources only as with the TDP20 Contest (which will include importing of T1G assets, and also will be expanded slightly over what was allowed for the TDP20 Contest as has been discussed in the previously mentioned thread), or to allow authors unlimited use of custom content. Those are the only two choices. All other ideas which were discussed are removed from consideration, in the interests of keeping the choice simple for you, and the administration of the contest easier for us.

    The poll will run for 6 weeks, and the new contest will be announced soon thereafter, using the same general rules as the TDP20 Contest, plus whichever choice wins this poll.
    Last edited by Yandros; 18th Mar 2019 at 09:53.

  2. #2
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    The TDP20 Contest with stock and stock-derived resources was such a success I just have to vote for having that in the TMA20 Contest again.

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2018
    If people want to create an FM without the restrictions of a contest intended to celebrate the limitations and legacy of the original game, they are free to do so any day of the year! Many of the most beloved and essential FMs are non-contest releases using custom resources. They are always welcome and appreciated, but they also make up the vast majority of FMs made. The whole premise of a contest is to nurture creativity within some limitation, and what better limitation to commemorate Thief 2 than designing missions with the resources available to LGS at the time?

    Some may argue that, given that we have NewDark 1.26, DromEd Basic Toolkit 1.14 and Bullet releases etc., we have already broken this rule. I believe that these technical and quality-of-life innovations do not really infringe on the style and core gameplay of Thief 1/2, and those aspects are clearly what an Anniversary Contest is intended to celebrate! Being able to make larger missions using more of the stock resources than was possible in 2000 is a difference of degree, not of kind.

    FMs like Keeper of Infinity, Raven Creek, Dracula/Bathory/Nosferatu, Breaking The Stone, Home Sweet Home and MANY more are celebrations of the talent and inventiveness of the community. Sticking to stock-resources is a celebration of the game we all fell in love with in the first place.

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2007
    Location: Krull Island, in the pub
    My pick is stock resources. With Thief 2 stock resources, several original skies and weather effects avaliable, you can tell a great story and if you use them cleverly, the mission will be unique. To put it simple - I presume that many of us would like to celebrate the game in its original, old-school shine, and making all custom resources avaliable would mean not a real contest, just a couple of entries within a certain deadline, and a weird race of who-can-get-better-external-sources for building a mission.

    If everyone has the same instruments and resources, that's the real competition for me. Also, think about the T1/G contest. Missions like Enigmatic Treasure, The Scarlet Cascabel or Whistling of the Gears are so unique masterpieces that you can hardly believe they are from custom resources. But they are.

    So, when in doubt, just imagine a nice new T2 fan mission with textures and AI skins modified within the allowed limitations, and nice new skies/weather/ambients. That means thousands of possible great combinations of atmospheres and settings.

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: Southern,California
    i voted

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria
    Voted. Thief needs to enter the 21st century.

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: Full on Kevel's mom
    Agreed, or else this contest will be ANOTHER failure of epic proportions.

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2017
    Stock resources were fun last time. I don't see a reason to loosen the limitations now.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: ┴W 'ɐlnossᴉW
    Voted. Creating a FM for the TDP20 Contest was fun. There might be a chance that I'll go for this one too.

  10. #10
    Voted. Thief needs to enter the 21st century.
    I voted for no restrictions on assets, but that alone doesn't determine entering 21st century. I haven't finished a single FM from the previous contest, since even those most accessible at first had difficulty spikes or other obscure design decisions. And I do play (and finish) other games on semi-regular basis, both new and old. IMO the problem isn't about asset restrictions, it's more about sitting in a design bubble, despite having resources like GDC lectures and other tutorials easily available on the net.

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: France (Saint-Gobain)
    personally i would prefer to see new custom stuff , ive never been a big fan of thief 2 material , however i like thief 1 materiel. Nevertheless im sure there will be interesting missions in this contest.

  12. #12
    Desperately Dodgy Moderator
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: Fields of bluegrass
    Thief 1/G resources will be allowed under either rule, Cardia.

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: France (Saint-Gobain)
    Yes i know, at least a big part of thief1 resources are a feature of thief 2.

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: Full on Kevel's mom
    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    I voted for no restrictions on assets, but that alone doesn't determine entering 21st century. I haven't finished a single FM from the previous contest, since even those most accessible at first had difficulty spikes or other obscure design decisions. And I do play (and finish) other games on semi-regular basis, both new and old. IMO the problem isn't about asset restrictions, it's more about sitting in a design bubble, despite having resources like GDC lectures and other tutorials easily available on the net.
    If something has an "obscure" design decision (in your opinion), do you stop playing it out of irritation? What specific examples can you cite from this contest so people can improve and make their missions more up to your professional standards like something you'd see in a GDC lecture?
    Additionally, if everyone is pulling from the same resources and lectures, is there no worry that that could create even more of a design bubble by constantly adhering to what is expected for modern titles?

    I mean, keep in mind there's a reason there's still a community for Thief- plenty of us play modern games, but still keep coming back because a lot of modern design decisions are pretty fucking awful actually. Quicktime events, etc.
    Last edited by Random_Taffer; 30th Jan 2019 at 12:30.

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2009
    Location: WearyTaffer
    I'd love to see stock resources+t1 only. I can tell you from experience that once you use one custom resource-it can balloon quickly and make it harder to decide what to use. Sticking to OM resources will force authors to focus on creativity.

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Well, there are pretty insular design habits in the Thief community, but I think most of us still playing Thief FMs after all these years have come to either accept or tolerate these habits. This place is famously averse to criticism and debate, so I don't think it's changing anytime soon.

    The flipside is that the aversion to criticism and debate makes this place one of the more reliably pleasant places on the Internet. Want to ruin that pleasant vibe? Try discussing game design critically here.

    And even with design quirks that might not be tolerated in other communities or in game design in general, I still find myself enjoying more FMs than not, and I feel spoiled by all the richly atmoshperic environments talented people continue to produce for us to discover and explore.

  17. #17
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    I haven't finished a single FM from the previous contest, since even those most accessible at first had difficulty spikes or other obscure design decisions.
    All 23 missions had this, eh?

    I'm guessing what really happened is that you tried 2 or 3 of them, and then gave up.

  18. #18
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: Full on Kevel's mom
    Quote Originally Posted by Twist View Post
    Well, there are pretty insular design habits in the Thief community, but I think most of us still playing Thief FMs after all these years have come to either accept or tolerate these habits. This place is famously averse to criticism and debate, so I don't think it's changing anytime soon.
    No doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twist View Post
    The flipside is that the aversion to criticism and debate makes this place one of the more reliably pleasant places on the Internet. Want to ruin that pleasant vibe? Try discussing game design critically here.
    This place should be more open to criticism and debate, IMO. It's a bit of a hugbox and the attitude that all FMs are good because they exist really nourishes the production of mediocre releases. The FM forum description seems to promote ranting, so I think it should be allowed a lot more.

  19. #19
    Desperately Dodgy Moderator
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: Fields of bluegrass
    I agree with that, but let's all stick to the topic of the T2 Contest in this thread, mmkay? If you all want to debate the design of the previous contest missions and FMs in general, as well as the hugbox nature of TTLG, I'm happy to spin off those comments into a new thread. It's a discussion that probably is good to have, just not here.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Random_Taffer View Post
    If something has an "obscure" design decision (in your opinion), do you stop playing it out of irritation? What specific examples can you cite from this contest so people can improve and make their missions more up to your professional standards like something you'd see in a GDC lecture?
    Additionally, if everyone is pulling from the same resources and lectures, is there no worry that that could create even more of a design bubble by constantly adhering to what is expected for modern titles?

    I mean, keep in mind there's a reason there's still a community for Thief- plenty of us play modern games, but still keep coming back because a lot of modern design decisions are pretty fucking awful actually. Quicktime events, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brethren View Post
    All 23 missions had this, eh?

    I'm guessing what really happened is that you tried 2 or 3 of them, and then gave up.
    My spare time is limited, so if I feel that I'm going nowhere with something, then yes, I move on to something else. No, I didn't play everything from the contest list, only like 5-6 missions I read here are the best. Last I remember, I gave up on "Darkness walk with us", which was pretty cool and fairly accessible, but the difficulty spiked when things turned out more outwordly. Arcade sections and platforming will always be a bad idea with engine and player controls this ancient. I gave up on "Downtowne funk" out of boredom, it felt big for sake of being big, and lockpicking time on even most average locks seemed so long, that it seemed someone just wanted players to clock a long playthrough above anything else.

    There were two more missions I remember, I think it was "Whistling of the Gears" that opened up so fast and overwhelmed the player so much that choosing a way to go was almost impossible. There was one other mission that was so tight with patrols and timing, and it was hard to figure out where to go next, so I gave up after falling into a stream several times (don't remember the name, sorry).

    Associating modern design only with QTEs is pretty stereotypical, it's not about that at all. It's about things like guiding the player with environment, establishing visual language, learning about the pacing and difficulty. And these topics are presented by both indie devs and AAA veterans, there's free flow of fresh ideas, everything but a knowledge bubble.

  21. #21
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2011
    Location: Wild and Wooly West of Ireland
    Voted. I prefer 'Snugglehole' to 'Hugbox', TBH.
    Stock resources rock!

  22. #22
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    I was actually going to vote for allowing custom stuff, just to mix it up from the last contest, but with all the awesome missions that came out for TDP20C, why change anything? Plus it's the best possible even playing field, which usually garners the most contest entries.

  23. #23
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Location: Ireland/Poland
    I'm in minority on this one, but I can see how this culture of sticking to the roots and wanting less, even if you can have more helps with keeping this old-ish game still alive.

    Just please promise me and the remaining 27% of this community - no stock resources limitations on the New Dark 10th Anniversary Contest!!! That would be just plain wrong...

  24. #24
    Desperately Dodgy Moderator
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: Fields of bluegrass
    Quote Originally Posted by PinkDot View Post
    Just please promise me and the remaining 27% of this community - no stock resources limitations on the New Dark 10th Anniversary Contest!!! That would be just plain wrong...
    I totally agree, in fact I think custom should generally be allowed on most any contest, other than these two.

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    I uh... I assume any mission we could be working on now won't be allowed to be submitted even if they're only about 10%~ done?

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