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Thread: T2Fix: An Unofficial Comprehensive Patch for Thief 2

  1. #151
    Dˇttirin klŠ­ist oft mˇ­ur m÷ttli
    Registered: Apr 2015
    Some examples:
    -Stupid Grimrock Reloaded on expert (climbing on torches required).
    -Zontiks upcoming Patriot Series will be doomed (climbing on fences, streetlamps and whatnot).
    -Rebellion of the Builder 2 (fences and whatnot)
    The mission were made with new mantle in mind.

  2. #152
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    now we're talking. ok then, my personal recommendation is to fix the old FMs via FMdml, and anyone building new ones would be encouraged to add the mantleable=true prop to any/all odd concrete objects that they are sure should be mantleable no matter what. again, good practice saves future headaches for everybody.

    alternatively, the T2Fix gamesys.dml could be fingerprinted, so a fm author could reject it completely and easily just by adding a proper qvar to their gamesys, if that's what they would want. so many options, and all you have to do is just stop arguing about who's breaking the game and who isn't, agree upon some common rules, uphold them, and live happily ever after.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 23rd Apr 2019 at 07:30.

  3. #153
    Dˇttirin klŠ­ist oft mˇ­ur m÷ttli
    Registered: Apr 2015
    Go ahead and test all NewDark missions from the beginning. Properly. Then do dmls.

  4. #154
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    The idea to encourage new authors to add props or qvars makes no sense to me. How do you expect to notify all old and new authors of this?
    Last edited by marbleman; 23rd Apr 2019 at 08:03.

  5. #155
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    I'm not going to test all FMs obviously, I really don't have the time right now even if I wanted to.

    anyway, what I'm trying to say here (as someone who has been solving very similar problems in the SS2 environment), is that if an universal patcher for a game that is very commonly used by people exists, it would be prudent if fm authors acknowledged its existence, and adopted a few very basic standards that will make sure everything runs better for everyone (mtl'ing the water would be a very good example. same goes for EP2, ideally, the fm author should be aware that people will want to use a hires texture pack, and construct the mission in a compatible way. as far as fingerprinting is concerned, SS2 fm the Minstrel is where I fully tested this - the fm now has two extra qvars, one will identify it as a fm, the other as the Minstrel, this means any patcher or mod can check this and apply any/all extra settings or tweaks accordingly. that means there are no issues with mods like RealSG or Repairman).

    I'd assume fm authors frequent this forum, don't they? I'd also assume they had to learn how to build missions somewhere, how to set the resources up etc, also what not to do to make their missions run without Dark crashing and so on. so having them pick one or two more good habits up doesn't seem too far fetched.

    I had to learn a lot of editor stuff so I could fix SS2 up, and if I can do it, anyone can.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 23rd Apr 2019 at 12:28.

  6. #156
    Dˇttirin klŠ­ist oft mˇ­ur m÷ttli
    Registered: Apr 2015
    If the dmls or FM loaders would recognize a time stamp in order to load dmls, it could patch the the olddark missions only. The year 2012 would be enough.

  7. #157
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    that doesn't sound like a reliable way of fingerprinting, if you ask me.

  8. #158
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2015
    Quote Originally Posted by Unna Oertdottir View Post
    If the dmls or FM loaders would recognize a time stamp in order to load dmls, it could patch the the olddark missions only. The year 2012 would be enough.
    Yes, that would be preferable, but it, unfortunately, is not possible to fingerprint a DML in that way to my knowledge. It should be possible to implement a similar solution in FM loaders if we decide to go that route.

    This will not be implemented if it is known that some missions will not be playable. Though in the case of The Rebellion of the Builder 2, it would actually not cause an issue since the custom gamesys has the 10'ironFence object set to be unmantleable by default, with all exceptions reflected in changes on the concrete objects it requires. It does, unfortunately, look like it would affect your mission, The Stupid Grimrock Quote Reloaded, because it requires climbing on torches.

    While it appears some NewDark FMs may not be compatible with such a change, it is also true that many older FMs remain broken because of its absence. Perhaps we can look into a way to fingerprint the gamesys DML so that it only applies to the missions that require it, or perhaps one that rejects missions which would not welcome this.

  9. #159
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    I'd argue that this would still fix many, and break just a couple, hence, dml fixing those few that have problems with the global fix would make more sense.

    if I were really evil, I would perhaps add that whoever makes torch mantling mandatory in their mission, deserves whatever problems are coming. *connects the tips of his fingers*

  10. #160
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2015
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    I'd argue that this would still fix many, and break just a couple, hence, dml fixing those few that have problems with the global fix would make more sense.
    I can understand that point of view, and it certainly would fix many, but considering I do not have a complete list of NewDark missions and their reliance on mantling on certain objects, I am extremely hesitant to implement a global change, especially considering the effect it may have on some newer or perhaps future missions.

    In lieu of this, perhaps it would be most appropriate to leave fan mission authors to their own devices while individually fixing issues resulting from new mantle in older missions. This is certainly feasible in the ongoing Thief 2 FMDML project, which has already fixed several of these issues. Additionally, I have gone through the original missions and made changes where applicable, as it is quite obvious that they were constructed without the intention to mantle on certain objects. Authors building missions with NewDark in mind should test and address issues that may arise with new mantle, and indeed most have, making changing the mantling behavior of these newer missions either destructive or simply redundant.

  11. #161
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    your choice, as always - I'll just add LampPost and CemetaryGate to the TFix nomantle dml and laugh dr. Evil style.

  12. #162
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Glad this is out. Thanks. Just wondering though, is it portable? I mean, can it be used on any T2 folder and then that folder be moved?

  13. #163
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    yes, after patching up, the T2 install will be portable.

  14. #164
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2006
    Location: Nulli Secundi

    Reloaded Thief2 but now blank screen on gameplay

    I've searched the threads but couldn't find a similar issue to reference when you have a blank screen when starting a T2 mission. I know the issue has to be something relatively simple but I can't find a resolution.

    So I fully uninstalled then re-installed Thief 2 using TFix 1.26 and let it install from the CDs that I have from Sold Out Software. Thief 1 / Gold run fine.

    Currently using Angel Loader to run / install fan missions.

    Thanks for any assistance!! Greatly appreciated.

  15. #165
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    some very old intel gpus cannot handle anti-aliasing, is this some kind of old laptop maybe?

  16. #166
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2015
    Yes, I do believe some old Intel chipsets have exhibited issues similar to this. If that is the case, I would suggest running T2Fix again and selecting the low video preset, which disables anti aliasing.

    If the above fails, more information such as system specifications or any other relevant details may help.

    AngelLoader plays very nicely with T2Fix and NewDark, so I doubt the issue lies there. While installing the game through T2Fix, did any errors surface? I ask this because the install functionality is only compatible with existing installations and the first-party CD releases of Thief 2. Provided the content of the Sold Out release is similar to that of the original CDs, no problems should have occurred; however, some later releases employ various forms of file compression that do not allow T2Fix to install the game, the Mastertronic Collection for example.

  17. #167
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    wasn't aware that a T2 release with a nonstandard/encrypted file structure exists. I assume T2Fix can handle this properly - TFix will complain about crf files missing and attempt to continue.

    a similar incompatible release of TG also exists, it was a free download of the full game that only allowed you to play for a limited amount of time (30 or 60 minutes?) before asking for some cash ($10-15?) if you wanted to continue. probably the rarest TG build that ever existed, doubt anyone here has ever heard of it, let alone tried/purchased it.

    on the off chance someone has the original installer, give me a whistle, I wouldn't mind to poke around it for a bit just for fun.

  18. #168
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2006
    Location: Nulli Secundi
    Thanks for the advice!! I re-installed T2 directly from the CDs and then ran TFix using the low video preset and it works now!!

  19. #169
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2015
    I am glad you were able to get the game running. By the sound of it, I would wager that the black screen you were seeing was indeed the result of an incompatibility with anti aliasing. Most graphics chipsets should be able to handle it, but some older or particularly weak graphics cards can run into problems; however, this situation is what the low video preset was intended for, as it disables all particularly demanding video options.

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    wasn't aware that a T2 release with a nonstandard/encrypted file structure exists. I assume T2Fix can handle this properly - TFix will complain about crf files missing and attempt to continue.
    Yes, T2Fix will notify the user if it cannot locate a vital file during installation or if a CD is removed during installation and, if necessary, abort the installation. I was able to view the directory structure of the Sold Out release and it seems to match that of the first-party releases, meaning the the install functionality built into T2Fix should work as intended.
    There is not much I am able to do in the case of the Mastertronic Collection, which uses the Indigo 5 install system to both install and encrypt all of the Thief 2 data on the DVD. I must clarify that this is only an issue with the game installation portion of the patching process. For releases employing this method, though I am only aware of the Mastertronic Collection case, the game should be installed using the media’s own installer, after which T2Fix can be used without issue to manage the installation and apply patches.

  20. #170
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    ah, so the only problem is that data cannot be grabbed directly off the cd? that's not a big deal.

  21. #171
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    increasing the defaults for object counts might be a good idea; https://steamcommunity.com/app/21174...0458825893662/

    not sure about the new values though, hopefully some Dromeder will comment.


    //SS2tool is using
    obj_min -6144
    obj_max 8000
    max_refs 32768
    Last edited by voodoo47; 30th May 2019 at 09:41.

  22. #172
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2003
    Location: Cambridgeshire UK
    I looked at this nearly 7 years ago.

    The recommended maxima then were obj_max 8000 and max_refs 32768, but you will see in post #7 that it is possible to go up to 8184 and 47740 before things go wrong.

    I'm not sure about obj_min, but mine is set at -8192.

  23. #173
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2015
    Quote Originally Posted by ffox View Post
    I looked at this nearly 7 years ago.

    The recommended maxima then were obj_max 8000 and max_refs 32768, but you will see in post #7 that it is possible to go up to 8184 and 47740 before things go wrong.

    I'm not sure about obj_min, but mine is set at -8192.
    Thank you for this information. I suppose this explains why SS2Tool implemented those particular values. Provided there are no major problems associated with it, particularly on older machines, I see value in making this change, as some fan missions may benefit from having the default object limits raised. Some original missions, notably the Bank, come somewhat close to the original limit and with NewDark’s heightened capabilities, it stands to reason that they should be made available by default.

  24. #174
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by Jax64 View Post
    I see value in making this change, as some fan missions may benefit from having the default object limits raised.
    Since the fan missions would have been designed around the old object limit, I'm curious what your logic is here.

  25. #175
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2015
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    Since the fan missions would have been designed around the old object limit, I'm curious what your logic is here.
    I by no means claim that this would help all missions; it is true that most were designed around and work correctly within the original object limit. However, some missions, despite being designed with this in mind, can come close to reaching this limit and, as more objects are created during gameplay, this limit may be surpassed and thus the game may exhibit abnormalities.

    Again, given the architecture of the original engine, it made sense that these limits were in place. Though with the capabilities NewDark offers, perhaps it would be appropriate to raise them accordingly.

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