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Thread: i see a issue and would like to see what you all think

  1. #1
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: Southern,California

    i see a issue and would like to see what you all think

    ok alot of older missions had issues and over the past bit of time the wonderful unna and voodoo have been posting fixes for alot of them,but the problem is only people who see those pages to board will get fixx if they know what they doing,so my idea is this,to unna and voodoo go back through all missions from thief 1/g/2 and fix all missions then give missions updated to brethren so he can post them already fixed so this way we dont get to the point of having no broken missions if played on most updated newdark/etc

    would be nice to have one place to get thief 1/g/2 fan missions in 100% working order,and not have to fix each one as someone posts what to do,if you even understand it

    would take time but since unna and voodoo already been taking the time to post these fixes ,just fix the missions and give updated versions to the people who host the fan missions

    i hope you all see what i am trying got say,i still never been able to complete the fan mission where there is 4 different section due to one having a wall blocking one of the area's "i think it was called gauntlet or something"and i don't know 100% how to fix with the info unna put in that board

    that is why i had this idea,to help me and also all the others who would rather just have a place to get them fixed and now have to do each one as the fix is posted

    its going to be 2020 the days of everyone having to fix all the broken missions themselves seems outdated and the idea a person has to ask permission to fix a mission that was either always broken or broke due to newdark/patches from original creator is not right in my view,its not like you want to change mission ,just fix the issue to make it completed.

    also a massive thank you to unna and voodoo for putting in the hardwork to figure to how to fix problems with fan missions,thank you so much

  2. #2
    Registered: May 2017
    Location: USA
    Have at it!

  3. #3
    Registered: Oct 2016
    Location: The Mystic's Keep
    We're halfway there, sort of. fortuni's Mission Description thread notes whether missions need a fix or not and contains links to said fixes.

  4. #4
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Texas
    I agree with downwinder. It would be nice to have fixed missions rather than having to apply fixes. I also have trouble sometimes doing the dmls. I know its a lot of work and would be greatly appreciated. But at the same time I understand if you can't. I know voodoo is working on scp5 and other projects we are all waiting on. Yes for those that may not know voodoo does a lot of work for the system shock community as well. I know unna does a lot too.

  5. #5
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: Detox clinic
    First thing is that all the hard work has been done by me. I've gone through every T1/TG mission and every T2 mission up to 2004, and I'm now halfway through 2005 missions and so far have been responsible for fixing about 130 missions.

    I play the mission, report all the bugs I discover to Unna, including obj no's, questvar no's etc and suggest thoughts on what has gone wrong and potential solutions. Unna then makes a dml if possible and I test it, which sometimes means playing the mission again all the way to the finish.

    Sometimes the dml does not work and Unna tweaks the dml and I have to retest it, sometimes the dml will go back and forth 6/7 times before we get it right. I may spend 2 days on a mission finding the bugs and testing the dml's, Unna may spend only 5 minutes on a dml sometimes a whole day. I've worked closely with Unna for the last couple of years because she understands how objectives work, which Voodoo couldn't always do, and because she's likes a challenge, if I come across a complex issue she'll spend hours, if not days trying to figure out a solution.

    Secondly we can not fix missions directly. Most authors state clearly in their readme files that no-one can alter or modify their missions. But what we can do is make dml's which is a set of instructions that are given to Newdark, correcting or slightly tweaking what Newdark reads when it scans the authors DromEd instructions, ie it's a bit of a cheat but gets around the sacrosanct rule of not modifying the authors work.

    I then post the link to the dml in the Brief Summaries and make a note of them in the upgraded T2 lootlists which are being compiled for this reason, to give players professional looking lootlists that reports all loot found via Newdark with dml's installed.

    Easy to understand instructions as to how to install dml's are found in the OP of the Brief Summaries thread. Read them carefully, take your time, go step by step and they do work.
    Last edited by fortuni; 29th Mar 2019 at 22:28.

  6. #6
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: Detox clinic
    Here are some pictorial instructions as to how to install dml's. Please bookmark this thread so you can refer to it in future.

    1. Find the mission entry in The Brief Summaries Thread, lets work with The Homeless Dude

    2. Paste & Copy all the code in the dml

    3. Copy in windows notepad and save following these instructions

    Save the 'File Name' as miss xx.mis.dml where xx is the number of the mission file. This varies from mission to mission, so simply paste&copy the end of the top line in the screenshot above (see highlighted area)

    Then in 'Save as type' use All Files

    4. Windows will then save this file in usually your docs folder, but check it may be saved in another folder.
    Now just move the saved dml to your FMsel mission folder. Do not place it in your main Thief folder, but only in your FMsel folder. You can not use dml's if you use Darkloader, you must only use them with FMsel. And no do not place them in your FM's folder or load them into darkloader, these are mini instructions to be added to the FMsel mission folder to give Newdark extra instructions, they do not work as stand alone files.

    Last edited by fortuni; 7th Apr 2019 at 09:06.

  7. #7
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: Southern,California
    i also want to thank anyone else who is helping with this,as i am not sure the fully amount of people doing this

    and fortuni i thank you for trying to help but its not just about me,but anyone who plays thief fan missions or will play thief fan missions

    just to have each person do this is so outdated

    and to the person who said about authors not allowing for changing i am a fix is not what they meant,i am sure they meant changing game play/textures/stuff like that,and also if a person has passed away and a fix is needed then what,its about the fan missions at this point and i don't think any one person should trump that

    just want to see it all in one type thing the amount of missions already with fixes is insane,just a idea i had ,i know it would be a lot of work but then people can just get mission and play it once they got all updated things for that thief game

    in before zylon say why don't you do it,and my response would be "as part of the order of the healing fruit i am not high enough rank to have such task's layed upon me"

    dewdrop has joined "the order of the healing fruit also"

    also the idea was for only missions that cant be completed in all difficulty's ,other fixes that are not essential are not what i meant so i am sure they make the list of fan missions a lot less

    i would forsure jack up my files trying to do that let alone find all the boards with fixes/etc

  8. #8
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: Detox clinic
    Rules are rules.

    If I was to publish a book and plagiarised someone else's work I would be taken to court and sued for $1000's, people who copy other people art work go to prison for forgery. We all understand your frustration and desire to make things simple, but in RL you have to follow the rules, and that includes fixing other people fan missions, it's known as intellectual property rights and it can't be done.

  9. #9
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by downwinder View Post
    in before zylon say why don't you do it
    YOU do anything as technical as this? Ahahahhhhahhhahhhhhaaa......

  10. #10
    Registered: Sep 2004
    I'm guessing what downwinder is trying to say is that having the user search, create and load dmls manually is not too great. and I actually agree with that, regular users should not be forced to dig around files.

    a much better solution would be to include the entire FM fixup dml database inside NewDarkloader (less than 200 files at this moment if I read right, should be just a couple of megabytes if not less), and have it apply the correct fix when the FM is launched (I understand some work has already been done in this area? the readme says "NewDarkLoader can extract the contents of a 'fix' file each time the FM is installed"). ideally, the loader should check an online repo each time it's started, and grab all updated/new files if available.

    I've done some research on this, and the first part is completely doable - NewDark can autoload a folder with all the dml fixes inside regardless of their filenames, and only apply those with matching fingerprints. I had a prototype of this working (that's why my dmls have fingerprints), but left it alone in the end, as the demand for T1/TG fm fixes didn't seem that big (are the exact numbers of how many TG/T1 and T2 dml fixes exist available somewhere?).

    one way or another, I think what I'm trying to say here is "lets figure out what the right thing to do here is, and once that is done, do it right from that point onward".
    Last edited by voodoo47; 30th Mar 2019 at 13:28.

  11. #11
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: Detox clinic
    That would be so cool if we could get this idea up and running.

    As for numbers I've been double checking all the T1/TG dml's I know of and making sure they are all included in the Brief Summaries thread

    For T1/TG there are 22 dml's available (but more if you count the individual missions from the Shadow of Doubt campaign that has 5 dml's and 5 .gams), there are 3 or 4 missions that need the old convict.osm installed, 1 mission that needs a missflag file added.

    I'll be going through the T2 missions (upto 2004) tomorrow and will post the numbers then, but it's approx 65 so far.
    Last edited by fortuni; 30th Mar 2019 at 13:30.

  12. #12
    Registered: Sep 2004
    that seems very manageable. those old convict missions are going to be a problem though - do you happen to have an example of such a mission including a description of what doesn't work (with the new convict) at hand?

  13. #13
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: Detox clinic
    Garrett's Revenge only an issue if you play one of the zips that do not contain the word 'gold' in it (IIRC there are 5 different zips out there), if so the objective Find information on who, grassed, set up, framed, Cutty' does not work and thus 2 other objectives later in the mission will not trigger either.

    Information Picking up a scroll in the temple does not complete the objective Find Brother Roban and so the new objective Roban has gone to Lord Durban's town mansion. Follow him also fails to trigger, this prevents you finishing the mission.

    The Trickster's Return The mission does not finish when playing on expert unless you install the old convict.osm, but does finish on other difficulties.

    I was pretty sure there was a 4th mission that needed the old convict.osm but can't find which one, it may well be AMIDA which a long time ago you confirmed was a T1 mission not TG as it is usually listed as, and IIRC I replaced the convict.osm and everything worked ok, but this mission has it's own dml so not no problem.

    Here's the list of T1/TG dml's, tomorrow will do the same for T2 mission up to 2004.
    Last edited by fortuni; 30th Mar 2019 at 13:53.

  14. #14
    Registered: Sep 2004
    that looks like an adequate amount to try to create a proof-of-concept package. I'll look into it today or tomorrow.

  15. #15
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: Detox clinic
    Here are the T2 dml's all 78/79 of them

    There are a couple of oddities, Working the Mines is not a dml but need specific old scripts, Saint's and Thieves need certain scripts deleted once you have installed the dml and The Library - The Town is just bizarre, the dml worked fine with ND1.23 or 1.25 but doesn't with 1.26, even worse the mission now seems to have a problem with bad saves, so your idea to automatically load dml's will not be suitable for all missions.

    To give you an idea I've gone through approx 325 T2 missions so far, from 2000 onwards, so there must be 600+ more missions to check, of which I'm guessing about 400 +/- were made using olddark. So maybe we'll end up with somewhere in the region of 200-250 T2 dml's.
    Last edited by fortuni; 30th Mar 2019 at 16:58.

  16. #16
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: Southern,California
    well i tried

  17. #17
    Registered: Sep 2004
    I'm very sure not all FMs will be fixable this way, but any system that works 80% or more is a good system. the T1/TG test package - extract to a TFixed TG install, and add "FMdml" folder to the cam_mod.ini modpath, and launch a mission from the previously posted pdf list.

    - the first goal target qvar with a non-zero value is used for fingerprinting, looks like this is working well so far.
    - the mission dml format is first three letters of the fm name underscore mission filename.
    - I may have fixed the issue with old convict, whoever can speedrun any of the affected missions is welcome to check (Information, Garrett's Revenge, The Trickster's Return).
    - I have more fixes in the repo than mentioned in the pdf list. uhh, any idea what they are, anyone?
    - no idea what the fix for The Gem is supposed to be, looks like a fam texture.
    - Mine Shock and Hellerhouse probably not fixable in this way.
    - Trial by Night looks like just me playing with candles, no real fixes there.
    - resource loading is very limited, but custom obj fixes seem to work (check the improvised lockpick in the second SOD mission, should be a nail now). as long as the fixed resource is using custom filename (not using a vanilla resource name), it should be safe to have it in the package. that basically means missions like Mine Shock are out, as we can't pop a full mission file there.

    test to DEATH and report.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 31st Mar 2019 at 16:26.

  18. #18
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: Detox clinic
    Will test later today.

    2 Questions.
    1. I assume all I need to do is check that the dml is loaded into the FMsel folder and that I do not have to play each mission all the way through to the end?

    2. I have tested all of these dml's before and have loads of FMselBak.zips in my FM folders but so far I haven't found any that contain dmls (the folders only show saves and screenshots) so when you uninstall a dml fixed mission from FMsel where is the dml stored? If I delete the relevant
    FMselBak.zips from my FM folder would that guarantee that I won't be loading the previously used dml which would then give me a false positive when testing your package?

    Circle of Strain + Calendra's Cistern can now both be removed from your repository as there is no need for them since Anti_Matter has produced Newdark versions of those 2 missions that fixes all the bugs.

    The Gem is the 4th T1 mission that is fixed by installing the oldconvict.osm. Without it the objective to 'Find the Worthington Manor' does not check off.
    Trial by Night had a problem when you climbed into the attic when playing via Newdark 1.21a, I don't know why but your little fix with the lights solved this issue. Last time I played via 1.25 the problem did not occur.

    You may wish to remove A Noble Death, it only fixes a scroll

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    I have more fixes in the repo than mentioned in the pdf list. uhh, any idea what they are, anyone?
    Which Fixes are you thinking of?

    A couple of them are T2 missions (Breakout from Apocalypse, Skygem Connection)
    Last edited by fortuni; 31st Mar 2019 at 05:17.

  19. #19
    Registered: Mar 2015
    After testing Information rather extensively, I can conclude this method to be working well; oldconvict.osm is loaded properly. However, would QVARs be the best way to fingerprint the DMLs? It seems far more likely that two fan missions could, by happenstance, share a QVAR, while far less likely that two would share multiple objects located throughout the mission. Unfortunately, I doubt it will be possible to implement true custom resource loading with this method, due to the nature of dbmods.

    Regardless, this is looking good.

    EDIT: If the only fix required for The Gem is the old convict.osm, then this should suffice. In the fix archive, drop this in the .\dbmods\miss_all and name it "gem_miss15.mis.dml".
    // Fix for T1 FM "The Gem" (Wes Morrison)
    // Affected Files: miss15.mis
       QVAR "goal_target_1" == 651
    //load oldconvict script
    #script "oldconvict"
    Last edited by Jax64; 30th Mar 2019 at 23:55. Reason: EDIT

  20. #20
    Registered: Sep 2004
    1) yeah, churning out a dozen and half dmls at the same time carries increased risk of typos and other mistakes, having someone else go try to load the missions and double check is desirable (I've loaded each mission separately and checked the logs, but better safe than sorry).

    2) the FMdml folder is constructed in a way that should ensure its dmls load with maximum priority (so their content should override any old dmls present in the fm root if there are conflicts), but it would be good to test this in a real life scenario (place a dml in the fm root that changes obj X shape/size to 2x, and a dml that changes it to 0.5x in FMdml, and see which one wins. I think I'll have a shot at this real quick //checked and confirming, working as intended). but generally, the less messy your game install is, the better (unsurprisingly). not sure what do you mean in the second part where you delete stuff around, but basically, the way this is supposed to work is to have a separate folder with all the available fixes that the engine checks when the game is started, and the correct fix is applied with maximum priority if a matching mission is launched.

    - will kick the outdated stuff from the repo.
    - will add the Gem script load fix (woah, it really works? awesome).
    - I don't really mind that Noble Death fix is not critical.
    - ah yes, forgot about the repo also hosting T2 fixes. that's probably it.

    - as far as I can tell, the chances of a mission having the same goal target as a different mission is statistically very low, but should using the first non-zero value goal target qvar be found as not sufficient, a different fingerprinting method can be used with little trouble.

    as mentioned, this is just a proof-of-concept package, intended to determine whether it's worth to try to go this way - as I've said, I believe that if we can use this in 80% of cases or more, then it probably is.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 31st Mar 2019 at 06:16.

  21. #21
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: Detox clinic
    @ Voodoo

    Need a little help please. I've extracted your package into my TG folder but testing Out for a Walk and the dml is not loading, probably because I'm not setting up my cam_mod.ini correctly (yeah ok I'm stupid when it comes to files, but you knew that anyway).

    I've tried every combination I can think of including uncommenting 'FMdml folder' in 5 locations but still the dml does not load. Can you or someone else post their cam_mod.ini mod path with a mod path that works.

    This certainly does not work

    ; ---------
    ; Mod paths
    ; ---------

    ; the max path count is 63 for "uber_mod_path" and "mod_path" combined
    ; (avoid an excessive amount of paths, it can make file handling slower)
    ; the full path search order is (starting with highest priority)
    ; uber_mod_path -> FM dir (if active) -> mod_path -> resname_base(/movie_path/etc.)

    ; these are mod paths that override the active FM in the search order
    uber_mod_path mods\UpToDateOSMs+MyGemMod\FMdml folder
    FMdml folder

    ; these are normal mod paths which are applied after the active FM in the search order
    mod_path MyBowMod+.\TexturePack\FMdml folder
    mod_path patches\FMdml folder
    FMdml folder

  22. #22
    Registered: Sep 2004
    I should have used quotes there - it's "FMdml" folder, not "FMdml folder". corrected in the original post. a regular mod_path of any sort should do fine (ubermods should be used carefully, and it seems like we don't need them here, at least for the time being).

    also, when testing the package, add "dbmod_log 10" to cam_ext, and check dbmod.log each time you run a mission, making sure only one mission dml is getting loaded each time (only one should be NOT rejected by the fingerprint system. so for example, if running the Item, the log should only show ite_miss20.mis.dml as getting applied).

    my cam_mod:
    ; these are normal mod paths which are applied after the active FM in the search order
    ;mod_path MyBowMod+.\TexturePack
    mod_path usermods+mods\packfix+mods\candles+mods\EP\Thief1+NecroAge\Thief1+NecroAge+EP2\Thief1+EP2+mods+mods\ t2skies+mods\EP+FMdml
    Last edited by voodoo47; 31st Mar 2019 at 06:24.

  23. #23
    Registered: Sep 2004
    make sure no folder duplication is going on, when you open the FMdml folder, you should see a bunch of folders and files, not another FMdml folder.

  24. #24
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: Detox clinic
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    make sure no folder duplication is going on, when you open the FMdml folder, you should see a bunch of folders and files, not another FMdml folder.
    That's probably the problem, I extracted the 7z file directly into my Root folder and there is a FMdml folder inside the first one. Should have extracted to a temp folder and then manually moved those.

  25. #25
    Registered: Sep 2004
    yeah, see my previous post. also, it looks like your main gamesys dml is not loading NVscript - watch out, the FMdml package depends on this.

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