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View Poll Results: What FM should we cover in the near future?

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  • Art of Thievery suggested by Galaer

    3 18.75%
  • Calendras Legacy suggested by punkey brunster

    9 56.25%
  • FMs by AsyluM suggested by Independent Thief

    4 25.00%
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Thread: Podcast: 42 - Sabotage at Soulforge

  1. #501
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Sabotage at Soulforge is one of my least favorite levels in game. On one side there are Karras speeches, which are great and my favorite is about building yourself a house. But on the other hand there is slow process of creation guiding beacon. It takes most of the mission. On my first playthrough I had problems with spawning stage pieces after using other parts and I was forced to reload older saves, so in next playthroughs I always fear that something is going to screw up again. Second part of mission is going after signal towers, which are pretty much obstacle courses for Garrett. They don't feel like they were made for factory purposes and they feel artificial. This breaks immersion for me.

  2. #502
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Soulforge has i think the strongest thematic and dramatic underpinnings of all the original thief missions. The cathedral is now a foretaste of Karras’s planned hell on earth: entirely stone and metal, without a single living plant, or creature, or human in it—except Karras himself. the only movement is from the machines, and the robots, and what remains of his followers after murdering and servant-ifying them.

    then Viktoria arrives: trying to sabotage the machines with plant growth; aware that its probably hopeless, but doing it anyway because theres no time left and no other options. Karras must be fought even if its a fool’s errand.

    and Garrett—having rejected Viktoria’s plan as doomed and suicidal—as indeed it is—turns up at last, whether out of shame at his cowardice or an infatuation with Viktoria is never quite resolved. but he turns up too late, only in time to see Viktoria’s failure, and her desperate self-immolation that sends vines threading out through the halls and ducts of the cathedral—but still much too little: even Viktoria was not plant enough.

    How can a victory possibly be wrought out of this? only by using Karras’s own tools against him. even as Karras berates you for being “a man of destruction, not construction”, you are constructing the guiding beacon that will draw back the servants, using karras’s own blueprints and the same machines that built all these robots.

    its an absolutely fantastic mission concept, and this first half of it is really good. far more robots than you have encountered before, more than you can dispatch with water arrows or even mines. though never forced to ghost, you really have to lean on stealth and avoidance as you locate the plans, the parts, and the several machines you need to make the beacon. and then you slot it in, switch it on, and…

    …and now the bad half of the mission starts. now you leave the cathedral proper, and have to navigate a set of arbitrarily arranged, highly videogamey gauntlets to reach the signal towers. there is a lot of fun to be had in these spaced (and i am especially fond of the turret room), but the momentum of the narrative has dissipated; the areas feel like abstract challenges with no real connection or meaning—and youve probably been in this mission for two hours already, and it just goes on and on. it doesnt entirely replace your triumph with tedium, but it sure tries.

    at least the ending cutscene is really awesome!

  3. #503
    New Member
    Registered: Nov 2023
    I pretty much hated the mission when I first played it in 2000, but in retrospect it feels closer in mood and gameplay to a System Shock 2 mission than a Thief mission. So now I enjoy the oppressive mood and the sneaking and manufacturing items element since I also enjoy System Shock 2. But I get the mood to actually play the mission about once every few years to be honest, it's just so daunting a prospect.

  4. #504
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    come to think of it, maybe the hellish slog of the second half of soulforge is the purgatory garrett deserves for refusing to help viktoria before it was too late. maybe the soul that is being forged is his own, hammering in just a little humility and repentance…

  5. #505
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Point Nemo
    The biggest problem with Sabotage at Soulforge is it's immense map size. I get that factory style missions make sense to be somewhat large but the scale was to the point that you'd lose momentum, and some of the thrill, by just shuffling back and forth through areas.

  6. #506
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2021
    I'll confess I'm not even sure I ever reached the end of it. In my mind the final mission of The Metal Age has been replaced by The Builder's Paradise.

  7. #507
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2020
    Location: Russia
    Quote Originally Posted by Kubrick View Post
    I'll confess I'm not even sure I ever reached the end of it. In my mind the final mission of The Metal Age has been replaced by The Builder's Paradise.
    +

  8. #508
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2013
    Location: Finland
    It's been about six or seven years since I last time finished T1 and T2, so my opinions about OMs might be a bit different today than what they were back then. Since then I've started DromEding myself and played quite a lot of FMs, so those things have somewhat changed the way I experience and feel about FMs/OMs.

    From what I recall I did like Sabotage at Soulforge a lot. It felt like a final challenge, against all those robots and Karras himself. I really liked Karras speaking to Garrett, it intensified the tension and made me visualize Karras desperately trying to locate Garrett and kill him.

    Back then, when I finished this OM, I liked the huge size of Soulforge with all the machines and different areas. Karras is a megalomaniac and Soulforge is the greatest structure he built, so it ought to be huge. I used to think Karras was a bit like some Bond film villain with his mad visions.

  9. #509
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: Southern,California
    after decades of fan missions, not sure why om's are a talking point, besides the lore, the levels themselves are no match to fan missions

    my view is get back to fan missions with authors

  10. #510
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2010
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by downwinder View Post
    after decades of fan missions, not sure why om's are a talking point, besides the lore, the levels themselves are no match to fan missions

    my view is get back to fan missions with authors
    looking at how many comments we got here, on YT, our Discord Channel etc. - they seem to be a talking point

  11. #511
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Taffer View Post
    I really liked Karras speaking to Garrett, it intensified the tension
    oh, one fun piece of trivia. Karras's complaints at Garrett in Soulforge directly inspired Dr. Breen's haranguing of Gordon Freeman in the final level of Half-Life 2. The parallel in one pair of lines is striking:

    Quote Originally Posted by Karras
    What hast thou built, Garrett? When the time comes to review thy life, with the Master Builder afore thee, and the question is asked: what hast thou built, what will thee say, poor Garrett? For thou art a man of destruction, not construction. Tis the biggest sin of all. Build thyself today a good house, that would please Him much!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Breen
    Tell me, Dr. Freeman, if you can. You have destroyed so much. What is it, exactly, that you have created? Can you name even one thing? I thought not.
    And first on twitter (now long since deleted), and later in an interview, Marc Laidlaw confirmed the connection:

    “We knew that we were going to have these monologues running in the background of scenes for aural texture,” Laidlaw says. “When you write something like that, you have to convince yourself that maybe there’s some substance to these arguments.” Breen was influenced by Father Karras, the sociopathic prophet of Thief II: The Metal Age. “He provides an incredible radio show while you’re sneaking around doing thievish things,” Laidlaw says. “I was appalled at myself when I went back years later and listened to those Karras broadcasts, and realised how much I lifted from Thief.” — Rock, Paper, Shotgun

  12. #512
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2021
    Quote Originally Posted by downwinder View Post
    after decades of fan missions, not sure why om's are a talking point, besides the lore, the levels themselves are no match to fan missions

    my view is get back to fan missions with authors
    I find the FM discussion way more interesting too, it's true. I've listened to the Russell episode twice, but the ones with FM authors about three or four times. The OM ones just once. But I understand if, somehow, OMs are better for the podcast.

  13. #513
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2010
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Kubrick View Post
    I find the FM discussion way more interesting too, it's true. I've listened to the Russell episode twice, but the ones with FM authors about three or four times. The OM ones just once. But I understand if, somehow, OMs are better for the podcast.
    I don't think that they are better or worse or anything, but we can be sure that everybody has played them and has an opinion - looking at the comments people have and I think it is amazing that after 25 years there is still room for discussions and interpretation. Some comments from the community gave me pov, interpretations that I never thought about and totally changed things for me aaaaaaand of course OM episodes are easier to organize

  14. #514

  15. #515
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Point Nemo
    Just started listening to the latest episode!

  16. #516
    Member
    Registered: May 2018
    Location: swamp
    In the Soulforge episode there is a food for thought about Karras not changing his body into being more mechanical, and for me answer is simple: Hypocrisy and massive ego.
    While I can't provide sources (just listen to some cults documentaries, or watch people on social medias who believe they are on higher vibrations level), the type of people who are snake oil salesmen, cult leaders, faith healers, new age stoners, and such are very hypocritical. They demand from others to follow the strict rules or change while they are is free of charge. Their reasons for not following the "purity" are slimy and sketchy for the outsiders but it makes a lot of sense for indoctrinated individuals.

  17. #517
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2010
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by wycha View Post
    In the Soulforge episode there is a food for thought about Karras not changing his body into being more mechanical, and for me answer is simple: Hypocrisy and massive ego.
    While I can't provide sources (just listen to some cults documentaries, or watch people on social medias who believe they are on higher vibrations level), the type of people who are snake oil salesmen, cult leaders, faith healers, new age stoners, and such are very hypocritical. They demand from others to follow the strict rules or change while they are is free of charge. Their reasons for not following the "purity" are slimy and sketchy for the outsiders but it makes a lot of sense for indoctrinated individuals.
    that makes sense - I don't believe that LG thought this far - but your interpretation is reasonable. Thats what I love about Thiefs loose ends.

  18. #518
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: Leicester, UK
    Finished the final podcast.

    Thank you so much for the wonderful episodes. It it obvious that huge amounts of time have been taken to produce them. The interviews, content, and discussion have all been excellent.

    So Alex, and past and present guests/contributors, thank you so much for your time, passion, and commitment.

  19. #519
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2010
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by mrsmr2 View Post
    Finished the final podcast.

    Thank you so much for the wonderful episodes. It it obvious that huge amounts of time have been taken to produce them. The interviews, content, and discussion have all been excellent.

    So Alex, and past and present guests/contributors, thank you so much for your time, passion, and commitment.
    thank you for your kind words but damn guys, after listening to all episodes you should know my strange humor it wasn't the final episode, I was kidding there will be fewer episodes over a year but it is not over yet

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