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View Poll Results: What FM should we cover in the near future?

Voters
16. You may not vote on this poll
  • Art of Thievery suggested by Galaer

    3 18.75%
  • Calendras Legacy suggested by punkey brunster

    9 56.25%
  • FMs by AsyluM suggested by Independent Thief

    4 25.00%
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Thread: Ep10: "First City Bank& Trust"online! Inside at Last - Thief Podcast Megathread

  1. #76
    Master Builder 2018
    Registered: Jan 2008
    Location: The lovers the dreamers and me
    Quote Originally Posted by Supremcee View Post
    I have hopes for your feedback but.. be nicer.
    This actually made me LOL.. ; )

    And yeah, I was a bit harsh in all honesty. Sorry about that.. in my defense I woke up in the middle of the night already on the cranky side from insomnia. It was really cool that you guys got Purah to join the discussion, and for that a huge thank you.

  2. #77
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2010
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by pukey brunster View Post
    This actually made me LOL.. ; )

    And yeah, I was a bit harsh in all honesty. Sorry about that.. in my defense I woke up in the middle of the night already on the cranky side from insomnia. It was really cool that you guys got Purah to join the discussion, and for that a huge thank you.


    So let's leave it as it is and move on.

    Thank you!
    Last edited by Supremcee; 24th Sep 2019 at 03:22.

  3. #78
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: Slovenia
    Quote Originally Posted by pukey brunster View Post
    This actually made me LOL.. ; )

    And yeah, I was a bit harsh in all honesty. Sorry about that.. in my defense I woke up in the middle of the night already on the cranky side from insomnia. It was really cool that you guys got Purah to join the discussion, and for that a huge thank you.
    Luv' ya Pukey!
    Btw: Morbid Curiosity is a masterpiece!

  4. #79
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2000
    Quote Originally Posted by Supremcee View Post
    I think you can't compare a one man (with help of course) FanMission to a triple A title with hundreds of people involved. Such comparisons don't make sense in my opinion, they both stand for their own.
    Well, I respectfully disagree, because in theory on a triple A title with hundreds of people involved it should be an order of magnitude more engaging. In reality, that didnít happen imo and itís worth asking why that is. Itís something to do with what creates the willing suspension of disbelief on the part of the player. This seems more to do with being engaged by story or gameplay than production values/graphics etc.
    Of course theyíre both still high quality experiences, iím not meaning to be rude..

  5. #80
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2018
    Location: Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by zacharias View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Supremcee
    I think you can't compare a one man (with help of course) FanMission to a triple A title with hundreds of people involved. Such comparisons don't make sense in my opinion
    Well, I respectfully disagree, because in theory on a triple A title with hundreds of people involved it should be an order of magnitude more engaging. In reality, that didnít happen imo and itís worth asking why that is. Itís something to do with what creates the willing suspension of disbelief on the part of the player. This seems more to do with being engaged by story or gameplay than production values/graphics etc.
    But that's not the point, and not what Alex was aiming for.
    As an Author, in CL Purah had 97% of control over what he did and what the final thing would look like. In Dishonored he had 0,2% or less :)
    So, comparing his CL to (not his) Dishonored (even if he contributed to development as a writer and level designer) in that context has completely no sense at all :)

    You said: "His stuff in Dishonored...". But of what exactly do You THINK it's his? :) I assume You are aware (or not?) it is only Your own imagination of what it might be.
    _____________
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  6. #81
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2000
    He worked on the Boyle Party level, that's well known. Granted they split level design and architectural detailing(?) into different jobs so it's not entirely his level. Anyway, I liked that level plenty, for sure one of the best in the game.

    But I still say the distinction between amateur and professional, auteur vs hired gun is an interesting one to debate. Obviously I'm in the minority there. If one of the best designers is only responsible for 0-2% of the content, that's a systemic problem right there, I'd say. Anyway, sorry for the minor derail.
    Last edited by zacharias; 24th Sep 2019 at 08:52.

  7. #82
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2010
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by zacharias View Post
    He worked on the Boyle Party level, that's well known. Granted they split level design and architectural detailing(?) into different jobs so it's not entirely his level. Anyway, I liked that level plenty, for sure one of the best in the game.

    But I still say the distinction between amateur and professional, auteur vs hired gun is an interesting one to debate. Obviously I'm in the minority there. If one of the best designers is only responsible for 0-2% of the content, that's a systemic problem right there, I'd say. Anyway, sorry for the minor derail.
    I think the 0-2% is a bit low....what Mat tried to say is that in comparison to a one man mission, in such a professional project there a way more factors that have influence on that process. As Anthony said in the podcast that with the people that helped him, more features entered the final product and changed the scale etc. This were maybe 5 people on CL, on Dishonored there are way more, then there are time and financial factors that you have to keep in mind etc.....so no matter how big his influence is in such a project there are still more influencing factors that have a bigger impact etc. so a comparison is pretty difficult. It's like comparing a bike to a car....yeah both bring you from a to b but constructing them and how they work is totally different.

    And you don't have to say sorry, a discussion is what a forum keeps alive

  8. #83
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2018
    Location: Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by zacharias View Post
    But I still say the distinction between amateur and professional, auteur vs hired gun is an interesting one to debate.
    The point is You can't compare it :) End of debate ;P
    Remember we even don't know what is his and we don't know what exactly he created. His 100% of creation was (for sure) devastated, neutered, flattened and perfectly fit to the average consumer who NEED/MUST to buy it, otherwise it will be no profit to the company.

    Even if he created a piece of art, we never be able to see that in the game because the art is not commercial... He could i.e. wrote a beautiful readable, but then we have dozens of various departments because the texts must be confirmed, and confirmed at all levels. On each of them we have an accountant with his notebook and calculator:

    "ouu... the text is too long... no, no, no, crop it, because every ADHD kid could be frustrated... We can't allow it. It won't bring benefits. And you want to translate so BIG text to the other languages? Bankruptcy! CROP IT!".

    "ouu... there are Difficult Words in the text... no, no, no, cut it, because every 9-old kid won't understand it, and most of the 20-30 year old console-players are mentally like 12-old kids (we know it because of big data) and they are our main target! They just HAVE TO buy it and not be frustrated in any case. We can't allow for difficult and sophisticated words, it won't bring benefits - CUT THEM!"

    "ouu... there are riddles in the text... no no, no, we have tags and markers in the game, so they are completely pointless. Players might be confused or something. It won't sell. We can't allow it."

    Purah probably had absolutely no control about such processes and what we see at the end as the "Final Product" might be something completely different of what Purah had in his mind... So, instead of presumable piece of Text Art, we have a poo molded by the taste of typical, average, potential gameplayer-kid or child-mind person, because they NEED to sell the product, so all the texts must be extra safe...

    Level design? Same thing... "cornices?, ornaments? what for? who will see that - we need more FPS because of more BLOOOOOD... we will call it as an "Optimization Process" later, and no one will cry".

    I bet Purah didn't even see the D's Map Editor and didn't know how to use it :) (or I'm wrong?) Who then edited it? Hired people. They need to edit fast (because the time is the money), and they need to be cheap (because... money is the money and the company cannot afford too much loss), and if they are cheap - the only thing they can do good is fast editing ;) No architecture specialists, and other professionals. OK, they have an assist above them - bunch of Level Designers and Art-Specialists, so by visual all levels are nice, but... yeah...). So, they could even messed up the things (because of the lack of art knowledge) which Purah (or other with 12 LD) designed... (most probably sketches and drawings?)

    Supposedly:
    If Purah had a free hand to do everything he want. The way he want to design, the things he want to put in, the texts he want to associate with other things, etc. If he had all those other Level Designers, Projectants, Graphics Designers and other Creators as subordinates to manage them. Then You could compare Purah's CL vs Purah's D. and even then it wouldn't be 1:1, because of One Person Project vs main Art-Designer + many of the others Project, but the main hmm... CORE of both could be compared at least in some parts and specifics.

    So we have no answer to Your question actually ;P You can only guess... In my opinion: Purah has The Thing inside himself (an Art-Soul). If you have it, you never lost it. I believe he tried as he could. If he drop down the art quality somewhere, it's not because of his will, but because of will of accountants. He might even have in his agreement-contract what he could do and what he couldn't (creativity killed at the very beginning). There is no point in trying wherever the 'final product' will be averaged and cropped into the mainstream anyway...
    _____________
    WANTED! Mat99 - very well known and dangerous emote-spammer, cunning and always armed in a bunch of emots in his hands - SHOT ON SIGHT!

  9. #84
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    You have a very comical and very exaggerated vision of game development, especially when it comes to Arkane.

  10. #85
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2010
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by skacky View Post
    You have a very comical and very exaggerated vision of game development, especially when it comes to Arkane.
    *edited* ah sorry I didn't see Mats post....agreed skacky

  11. #86
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2018
    Location: Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by skacky View Post
    You have a very comical and very exaggerated vision of game development
    Ahh it was exaggerated on purpose as an example what could be and to provoke the discussion :) It doesn't mean it WAS in that way for sure or it is that way TODAY in all the dev companies :) But some of them are definitely suffering from putting profit over the artistic level. DEFINITELY.
    _____________
    WANTED! Mat99 - very well known and dangerous emote-spammer, cunning and always armed in a bunch of emots in his hands - SHOT ON SIGHT!

  12. #87
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2000
    Quote Originally Posted by Mat99 View Post
    The point is You can't compare it End of debate ;P
    Yeah, it's probably a fruitless comparison, I'll grant you. The problem is my brain just wants to go there. Part of me wants him to remain a middle manager and keep making Thief fm's

    For the rest of what you said: yeah I kind of know all that, although it's very exaggerated. Arkane seems like they do things too old school/crafted/artistic for their own good anyway. Risky, because then you're only one big failed project away from trouble.

    Even if he created a piece of art, we never be able to see that in the game because the art is not commercial.
    Sorry but this makes no sense at all. Games are commercial art. And as you implied, all the outstanding tasks are well catalogued in a production environment. Any artwork produced will be for a specific purpose or general concepting/design purposes. They don't work on stuff at random, in general.

    Anyway, who's next for the podcast? Sledge would be awesome to get if at all possible - Inverted Manse and Thief 3(!)
    Last edited by zacharias; 24th Sep 2019 at 19:45.

  13. #88
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2018
    Location: Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by zacharias View Post
    Yeah, it's probably a fruitless comparison, I'll grant you.
    The age-old problem is whether a pear or an apple is better ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by zacharias View Post
    Part of me wants him to remain a middle manager and keep making Thief fm's ;)
    That is probably the wish of many people here as You can see in "what author would you see come back" thread. He was very pleased that people were still playing his missions, who knows - maybe something is triggered in his mind already after the podcast? :) As Yandros said: he refused politely to participate in '20th T2 contest', so You can't expect it soon, but in the other hand - would You foresee an almost 1,5 hour interview with Purah this year? :) You never know. OK - it's a "fool's hope", but still hope :) Who knows what will happen in the far future even if he don't have such plans today. And even Alex said somewhere above that he's sad he will never speak with Purah again, but... I would not be so 100% sure :)

    Quote Originally Posted by zacharias View Post
    For the rest of what you said: yeah I kind of know all that, although it's very exaggerated.
    Hah :D It seemed rather strange to me that someone could take this deadly seriously after the tons of sarcasm pouring out there :) When the level of absurdity is in red field and out of scale you should know or guess it's such a wink. Even the digits/numbers was exaggerated (like my: 0,2% with additional 'smile' at the end) because not the values, but weight between them (Calendra vs D) was the most important there. You can't just measure them precisely to get the concrete values :) However, no matter how the values are it's easy to see how much heavier one is than the other. When you exaggerated - the weights are more visible than they are in reality.


    Quote Originally Posted by zacharias View Post
    Even if he created a piece of art, we never be able to see that in the game because the art is not commercial.
    Sorry but this makes no sense at all. Games are commercial art.
    "commercial art" <- that is oxymoron for me :) After cutting we have:
    "games are art" - Hmm... YES and NO at the same time, because it depend of which games are You talking about (definitely not all of them) and for whom they are. Again - how can You measure that... 'level of art' or how You define it, if this is completely different thing for each of us? :)

    In Calendra's Purah could express himself (even if there were engine limitations, lack of knowledge how to do something, etc. problems), in D. even if he want to - he couldn't. And my point was we never be able to see what was his full creation for D. and how many we actually have in the final release.

    There were also additional things that made up the entire creation process: kind of initial notes, temporary texts, later notes in the margins, and finally some kind of 100% text he wrote. Then it must be compared and matched with what other 8 people have written and because Purah was storyteller not essential-writer it is DEFINITELY not 100% what he created or what he could.

    There was walls he cannot overcome as he was among other writers and LDs (he was a part of the 'machine'). Another thing: PEGI-18 :) When Purah was creating some text, knowing this, did he thinking: "hmm... 18, but let's be real - every single 13yo kid will play the game." So did something like that isn't like Hand-Brake to the creativity? OK, there is a hard language (curse-words) in the game, but... did he put 100% of what he want? or did he refrain? I doubt he had such things in mind during Calendra's creation and I'm not talking about brutal-language. His mind was free and he could do what he want.

    If you create something for a specific order where the framework is specified - the art-ingredient disappears... And what others called art in such cases is just... taste. Nowadays, personal tastes are created by the companies... so You can't call it art anymore (but presumably no more than POP-art). Where tastes was created there is end of the art... And we have this thing in the games, in the films/movies and lastly in the TV-series. This is just a set of 'averaged values' that are to be liked and to be "to the taste" of most + many things need to be calculated, because they will not survive 'the next season'. The perfect balance (art vs sell) is the key and it is not a linear relationship.

    There is no question of an Art in that case. So I stay with what You have bolded in quote-area: "the art is not commercial" :)


    Quote Originally Posted by zacharias View Post
    Anyway, who's next for the podcast? Sledge would be awesome to get if at all possible - Inverted Manse and Thief 3(!)
    STEPHEN RUSSELL - Alex we all believe in You ;)
    _____________
    WANTED! Mat99 - very well known and dangerous emote-spammer, cunning and always armed in a bunch of emots in his hands - SHOT ON SIGHT!

  14. #89
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2010
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Mat99 View Post
    ...

    STEPHEN RUSSELL - Alex we all believe in You
    No we have Garret himself planned but

    But serious..we are always open for suggestions..best if you have a good way to contact those persons!
    Last edited by Supremcee; 25th Sep 2019 at 18:00.
    Thief Podcast - Inside at Last Megathread >>> https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149898

  15. #90
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    Jesus mat can you please tone down the emoticons, it's just egregious at this point.

  16. #91
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2011
    Location: Wild and Wooly West of Ireland
    So long as his post isn't deliberately rude, profane or denigrating to any particular member I don't really see an issue with Matt's use of emoticons.
    :-)

  17. #92
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2018
    Location: Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by Psych0sis View Post
    Jesus mat can you please tone down the emoticons,
    Ahh yes, my stupid habit. I have a bad tendency to spam the emots too much and sometimes even use them as a DOT, but...


    Quote Originally Posted by Psych0sis View Post
    it's just egregious at this point.
    ..."egregious" You say. My text counter says: above 4000 bytes in last post and 13 of emots... It don't looks egregious for me as emots are 0,325% of 4KB text, but OK. It may be too much for You, and furthermore You are not first person who told me about it. Why You guys just don't use the browser plugins to deal with that? It still remains a deep secret to me... That's why I always put them as a PLAIN-TXT emots, so everyone can easily seek&destroy them by the simlple option and they will be 'removed' be switching on-the-fly. The specific "string-chain" may be changed to the {SPACE}, hug-dot or whatever else You want including colour (hint: user's forum background-colour).

    However, it still doesn't solve my "emot-spam" problem, so I'll set the red-alert on 0,1% of emots in the text and there will be no more than very few or none of them :P
    _____________
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  18. #93
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Quote Originally Posted by Mat99 View Post
    My text counter says: above 4000 bytes in last post and 13 of emots... It don't looks egregious for me as emots are 0,325% of 4KB text,
    That's 0,325% too much.

  19. #94
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2018
    Location: Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by marbleman View Post
    That's 0,325% too much.
    "Use plugins Luke" :P
    _____________
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  20. #95
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2010
    Location: Switzerland
    Psych0sis the old complainer.....best answer purgator

  21. #96
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2018
    Location: Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by Supremcee View Post
    Psych0sis the old complainer.....best answer purgator
    Looks like the discussion has turned into a different direction than expected and not where we wanted. [there should be a smile here, but I'm not allowed to. They don't let me].
    Well, where then is the 'Sewer' potcast episode? or, should I asked, when? [said with a look of reverie and a pinch of curiosity].
    _____________
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  22. #97
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    The sheer percentage is irrelevant cause it's still too frequent. Look at any other poster and you'll maybe see 1 per message at most. The more you use just comes off as extremely condescending and rude (how I look at it) or just childish (like most others have pointed out before). It's like someone just found out they could make faces with their keys and feel the need to jam it in to every message. And telling someone to just use a plugin to hide it instead of just calming down with it is simply silly.

    But yes, back on topic for the Podcast (not potcast). I believe the next episode should be another OM one, probably Bank. Looking forward to talking about another great one. (that is proper emote usage there, if you were wondering)

  23. #98
    Member
    Registered: Sep 1999
    Location: Austin, TX
    Psych0sis yes, the bank is actually pretty good. I want to say it was kind of ahead of its time.

  24. #99
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2010
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Psych0sis View Post
    The sheer percentage is irrelevant cause it's still too frequent. Look at any other poster and you'll maybe see 1 per message at most. The more you use just comes off as extremely condescending and rude (how I look at it) or just childish (like most others have pointed out before). It's like someone just found out they could make faces with their keys and feel the need to jam it in to every message. And telling someone to just use a plugin to hide it instead of just calming down with it is simply silly.

    But yes, back on topic for the Podcast (not potcast). I believe the next episode should be another OM one, probably Bank. Looking forward to talking about another great one. (that is proper emote usage there, if you were wondering)
    jokes aside, i general i totally agree, an overusage of emoticons can get pretty annoying and I have to admit that here in the forums the amount of emoticons is pretty low which is a good thing, they should be used for irony/making a point or pointing out some fun...

    and YES it should be the bank, OM6: Bank Heist which after 2 in between OMs is one of the highlights of T2. I'm really looking forward to it because this mission has so much interesting stuff and is the missions that has so many things that make T2 so great for me.

    The Sewer episode will come some time...we were just asking for submissions, imagine we 3 all have to revisit all of them so this is something for later, and since it's not forgotten it's not lost

    Gloria Creep
    Last edited by Supremcee; 27th Sep 2019 at 17:32.

  25. #100
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2018
    Location: Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by Psych0sis View Post
    The more you use just comes off as extremely condescending and rude (how I look at it) or just childish.
    You should see Chinese forums with their additional tamagotchi icon-emots... If You think what I've done is rude, then You should put 1/5 their population strict in to the jail immediately. "condescending and rude" - I just can't imagine Zacharias who receives it that way, but OK, there are THE others...

    Quote Originally Posted by Psych0sis View Post
    ...telling someone to just use a plugin to hide it instead of just calming down with it is simply silly.
    I thought my very first and very last sentences in post #92 was my calming down, but apparently not... Considering a plugin: That was AFTER my post #92, so if very few or none of emots are STILL too much for someone, (and moreover the 'comment' suggested strict zero as best), I found plugin as an extremely good advice, as I can NOT promise none of them in the future... (always).

    Furthermore, he would have no longer experienced frustration if another user accidentally used an emote. And imagine that my tongue at the end was very telling too, as well as the quote he trimmed just right before two important words I said.

    As Alex pointed very well - emots should be used for a special occasions and not as dots or commas, as it was in my case. 8 of 13 (AT LEAST) unnecessary and used without need. Let's learn something from it and draw conclusions for the future. I can't imagine a repeat of such an offtop just because some new registered person/user will do the same, so I would love to see something like that after clicking "Preview" or "Send" button always when there are more than 5 or 6 emots:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/v0x2ylt9mpdibit/sl.png

    Clearly visible warning, so the user can think about what he just did and make a decision: Send it? or Edit? He could also reread the Smiles-Section again by simple clicking. And there should be - no more than 2, 3 - additional sentences (bolded) about WHY overuse is bad and what exactly is suggested as the correct use, so every new user will know at the beginning.

    If the user will click "Send", then he's aware of what he is doing, and already knows that it can cause dissatisfaction with the others. Also it may be a situation where user is in need to send many of emots for purpose or other special reason.

    Moreover, if there will be more than 8, 9 in the text, it would be nice they will be converted to a less invasive text versions automatically when they are icon-ones (at least all those simple as in the image).
    Last edited by Mat99; 30th Sep 2019 at 12:15.
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