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Thread: Jeffrey Epstein, accused sex trafficker, dies by suicide

  1. #51
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    Education, education, education. And find some way to make people stop taking pointless selfies and focus on things that actually matter.


    Except every time you ask a seemingly normal question, it's always rhetorical and you already have the correct answer.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray View Post
    Education, education, education. And find some way to make people stop taking pointless selfies and focus on things that actually matter.


    Except every time you ask a seemingly normal question, it's always rhetorical and you already have the correct answer.
    Doubt it.

    There are numerous extremely "educated" people who have fallen for obvious bullshit stories because they were reported by sources that said person considered credible.

    Related fact: People who are educated with a high IQ are more likely to join cults, not less.

    Cult members are almost universally more educated than the general public: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...111/jssr.12246. There's a lot of reasons why, but two I've witnessed in people are that high IQ people tend to over-estimate their own cognitive superiority which makes them vulnerable to manipulation by more street smart people who make them feel like their "brilliance" has finally been recognized. I've also seen in some cases where people who were extremely intelligent are smart enough to spot where the inconsistencies are in commonly accepted current/historical/spiritual narratives but who are far too credulous when they come across plugs for those holes.
    Last edited by Tony_Tarantula; 21st Sep 2019 at 22:37.

  3. #53
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    We didn't need more evidence that Tony doesn't know how to read or examine data or even understand words, but hey. As a quick Sunday morning exercise, why not.

    The paper linked to 1) picks apart an earlier study that talks about the same thing, 2) re-examines it by conducting a statistical sample across NZ, Aus, England/Wales, and Canada that can only be extrapolated to the rest of the west, and 3) deals with 'alternative religions', not cults. If you scan the numbers for the actual things that people would describe as a cult like say Satanism (and Satanists will, of course, contest this), the numbers actually contradict Tony's assertion: 3.26%, 7.07%, 10%, and 12.2% of self-identified Satanists across those four nations have a BA or higher. I also did a double-take when I saw 'Yoga' considered as a religion, when it's in fact a discipline, but whatever.

    Further, the paper even concludes, and I quote, 'Assuming this pattern can be generalized to other industrialized nations, the obvious conclusion here is that, to paraphrase Troeltsch (1931), mystical religion and irreligion are both “religions” of the educated classes.'

    In short: the truth is always more insightful than the inane, cherry-picked dribble Tony comes up with on a per-picosecond basis.

  4. #54
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    How could anyone consider yoga a religion? It's kindasorta Buddhist, I guess, but only insofar that a lot of its practitioners extol this sortakindaish Buddhist notion of spiritual transcendence, which apparently only happens if you get really good at it.

    Mostly, I consider it calisthenics with atmospherics.

  5. #55
    El Shagmeister
    Registered: Jul 2000
    Location: Under your fingernails.
    And in case anyone's wondering, this -will- be on Monday's quiz. Class dismissed.

  6. #56
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    How could anyone consider yoga a religion? It's kindasorta Buddhist, I guess, but only insofar that a lot of its practitioners extol this sortakindaish Buddhist notion of spiritual transcendence, which apparently only happens if you get really good at it.

    Mostly, I consider it calisthenics with atmospherics.
    Yoga derives from Hinduism, and dates back to thousands of years ago. Like I said, it's more of a discipline. Buddhism shares similar notions, and at this point there's enough variants of yoga to confuse where what when and how, but it's generally practiced as something at the intersection of body/mind/spirit; or at least that's the idea behind it. Classes today mostly dispense with the spirituality, and focus on the physical benefits of each asana. Not sure if that's how it's done in the US, but in today's India lotsa folks do it for the physical fitness aspect first and foremost.
    Last edited by Sulphur; 22nd Sep 2019 at 04:58.

  7. #57
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2003
    Location: Location, Location
    Quote Originally Posted by The study
    As Dawson notes, the majority of members of NRMs are “disproportionately from middle- to upper-middle-class households, the advantaged segments of the population” (2003:122). The relatively privileged position provided by their class background generally leads
    to a better education, the resulting opportunities to consider spiritual alternatives (whether insideor outside of the classroom), and more freedom to experiment with these alternatives.
    So the dumb sheltered kids from well-off families going to college to find weird new things to believe in. I'm shocked. Shocked I say.

  8. #58
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulphur View Post
    Not sure if that's how it's done in the US, but in today's India lotsa folks do it for the physical fitness aspect first and foremost.
    It's about the same here, though some people do play up the mysticism for marketing purposes, or as an excuse to say namaste all the time.

  9. #59
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    There are numerous extremely "educated" people who have fallen for obvious bullshit stories because they were reported by sources that said person considered credible.
    You misunderstood me. I meant a good education. That's why I said it thrice.

    And yoga is not a religion. I did Ashtanga yoga for many years, and my teacher was a bit of a hippie who went to India and probably smoked quite a bit of weed, but she managed to keep her bullshit out of it, and I could just use it as a form of exercise. The popular myth is that yoga is an ancient practice, but it was really more or less invented in the 1920s, vaguely based on old practices. It's not nearly as old and mysterious as it's made out to be.

  10. #60
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    I mean, you're free to believe that if you want to, but the point when something accreted into a popular form doesn't invalidate its actual history.

  11. #61
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    I should have been more precise. I mean in the form we know it now in the modern world. It's not the same thing. But then again, I'm no expert either, I can only go by what my weed smoking hippie teacher told me. You're probably more right than I am.

  12. #62
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Wait, you mean to tell me beer yoga wasn't practiced in Ancient India?

  13. #63
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Well... Something very much like it probably was.

    But ancient Yoga was way more about meditation that just happened to have a few weird sitting positions associated with it.

  14. #64
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Beer yoga is when you drink a lot of beer and wake up in a weird position right?

  15. #65



    Quote Originally Posted by Gray View Post
    You misunderstood me. I meant a good education. That's why I said it thrice.

    And yoga is not a religion. I did Ashtanga yoga for many years, and my teacher was a bit of a hippie who went to India and probably smoked quite a bit of weed, but she managed to keep her bullshit out of it, and I could just use it as a form of exercise. The popular myth is that yoga is an ancient practice, but it was really more or less invented in the 1920s, vaguely based on old practices. It's not nearly as old and mysterious as it's made out to be.

    The people I was referring to have Ivy League and similarly prestigious degrees, so definitely a "good" education, yet will lap up anything they read in the Wall Street Journal as if it's truth that just feel straight out of the heavens.

  16. #66
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    The people I was referring to have Ivy League and similarly prestigious degrees, so definitely a "good" education, yet will lap up anything they read in the Wall Street Journal as if it's truth that just feel straight out of the heavens.
    These people don't exist.

  17. #67
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Daxim View Post
    How do we change our society so that outrage mobs and fake news press cannot be instrumentalised in order to overwhelm individuals and ruin their lives?
    Looks like you're not the only one to think that movements like #metoo are the real problem:

    https://nypost.com/2019/10/01/alan-d...etoo-movement/

    Alan Dershowitz — who has been mired in controversy over his taking on Jeffrey Epstein as a client and over his friendly ties to the late sex predator — is about to stir things up again with a new book, “Guilt by Accusation: The Challenge of Proving Innocence in the Age of #MeToo.”
    Meanwhile, serial rapists run free, because the police don't take victims seriously and thousands upon thousands of rape kits sit in warehouses untouched (WARNING: descriptions of sexual assault in the full article):

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...belief/592807/

    Each year, roughly 125,000 rapes are reported across the United States. Sometimes the decision to close a case is surely correct; no one wants to smear an innocent man’s reputation or curtail his freedom because of a false report. But in 49 out of every 50 rape cases, the alleged assailant goes free—often, we now know, to assault again. Which means that rape—more than murder, more than robbery or assault—is by far the easiest violent crime to get away with.

    [...]

    At the time, if you were raped in Cleveland and you were poor or otherwise vulnerable, police would likely make a couple of phone calls and move on. You can see this play out in the police files documenting the response to Nathan Ford’s early attacks. All of Ford’s victims who came forward had forensic exams, but detectives were more likely to shelve the kits than send them to a lab. Rarely did a detective visit the victim, witnesses, or the crime scene. If a victim couldn’t come to police headquarters on the detective’s timetable—because she couldn’t find transportation or child care or get time off from work—she was labeled “uncooperative.” The case was closed. In other instances, the detective wrote that he couldn’t locate the victim, and this was enough to end the investigation. Yet when investigators reopened sexual-assault cold cases 20 years later, they almost always found the victim within a few hours.

    When the Cuyahoga County prosecutor’s office hired a team of researchers at Case Western Reserve University, in 2015, to pore through police files and other records connected to thousands of untested rape kits in Cleveland, they quickly spotted the same pattern. In a random sample of cases, mainly from the mid-’90s, they found that the notes from many police investigations barely filled a single page. In 40 percent of cases, detectives never contacted the victim. In three out of four, they never interviewed her. Half of the investigations were closed in a week, a quarter in a day. As for rape kits—the one type of evidence that might definitively identify a rapist—police rarely sent them to the lab for testing. Granted, testing a kit could cost more than $5,000 in the late ’90s and 2000s. But during part of that time, the state was paying police departments to send in evidence. And even when the cost of testing a kit dropped to less than $1,000, police still tucked away the evidence in storage. Ultimately, Cleveland would accumulate some 7,000 untested kits.

    Nathan Ford’s rampage wasn’t enough to persuade the Cleveland police to begin addressing the rape-kit backlog. What did persuade them was a serial killer. In October 2009, the police discovered the bodies of 11 women buried in the home and backyard of Anthony Sowell, a convicted rapist. Over the years, some of Sowell’s intended victims had escaped and reported his attempts to rape them. But the police had never thoroughly investigated their claims. At least one woman had completed a forensic exam. The police had tested the rape kit—but only for drugs in her system, not for the rapist’s DNA.

    [...]

    When the members of Cleveland’s task force began shipping rape kits to the state lab, they didn’t imagine they’d end up fomenting a small revolution in criminology. Yet those evidence boxes uncovered new clues about the behavior of sexual assailants and overturned some basic assumptions—about how often they offend, whom they attack, and how they might be captured.

    Rachel Lovell, the lead researcher at Case Western, reviewed the results of the tests and found herself with a new and superior class of information. In the past, most research on rapists relied on prison records or “self-reports”—that is, surveys of people who answered questions anonymously about their behavior. But here, in her hands, were the biological name tags of thousands of men who had committed a rape and walked away. It was a larger and far more objective sample of sexual offenders. It was the difference between a pencil sketch and a color photograph.

    What struck her first was the sheer number of repeat offenders: Of the rape kits containing DNA that generated a CODIS hit, nearly one in five pointed to a serial rapist—giving the Cleveland investigators leads on some 480 serial predators to date. On a practical level, this suggested that every allegation of rape should be investigated as if it might have been committed by a repeat offender. “The way we’ve traditionally thought of sexual assault is this ‘he said, she said’ situation, where they investigate the sexual assault in isolation,” Lovell told me. Instead, detectives should search for other victims or other violent crimes committed nearby, always presuming that a rapist might have attacked before. “We make those assumptions with burglary, with murder, with almost any other crime,” Lovell said, “but not a sexual assault of an adult.”

    [...]

    The federal government estimates that police departments have warehoused more than 200,000 untested sexual-assault kits. But no one really knows, because cities and states fight to keep those numbers secret. The Joyful Heart Foundation, an advocacy group started by Mariska Hargitay, who stars in Law & Order: Special Victims Unit, has identified more than 225,000 kits through public-records requests. But given that 15 states and many large cities have declined to even count the untested rape kits in their possession, the group believes there may be several hundred thousand more.
    Last edited by Starker; 5th Oct 2019 at 02:30.

  18. #68
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    Wait, what? Is #metoo now a problem? Surely, it's about long-awaited equality we haven't quite reached yet. How is THAT a bloody problem?

    [Edit]

    I mean, the problem surely must be sexual abuse and inequality, not people POINTING OUT that there is sexual abuse and inequality. Or did I misunderstand the issue?
    Last edited by Gray; 5th Oct 2019 at 01:59.

  19. #69
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    There are a surprising amount of people who think that. Daxim is here defending Epstein, but I remember when the Weinstein scandal was going on, there were actually a couple of people here willing to go to bat for him too. For every such scandal where there's sexual assault, there seem to be at least a few people willing to stand up for the accused and cry, "Presumption of innocence!" or "Vigilante justice!" or "Now we can't even flirt anymore!" or some such thing.

  20. #70
    SShock2.com
    Member

    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: The land of ever sideways rain
    I'm not sure that's what Daxim is saying. Granted, it's most often very difficult to figure out what he actually means, because he tends to speak in weblinks and riddles, but I consider him a friend, and if he was that much of an asshole I may have picked that up at some point over the last 20 years. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that Daxim moves in mysterious ways. Maybe I just don't get it.

  21. #71
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Hmm? But why else bring it up in this thread of all places in response to Epstein's suicide? And what's that about fake news press?

  22. #72
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2003
    Location: Location, Location
    I assume because it was the only extant thread which had some relevance to the topic he wanted to discuss. And I think what he has a problem with, and indeed what I have a problem with, is the fact that in this modern era of social media, allegations need not be proven first before someone's life, reputation, and career are ruined over them. The presumption of guilt that naturally follows from the blanket policy of "believe women" has allowed it to be weaponized for political purposes.

    One recent example I've heard about concerns allegations made against one of the designers of the game Night in the Woods, Alec Holowka, who about a month ago committed suicide after allegations of abuse were leveled at him by Zoe Quinn (yes, THAT Zoe Quinn). A couple weeks later, internet sleuths located a collection of Zoe's deleted tweets from the time period mentioned in the allegations, including a podcast she attended, which, in my opinion, discredit those allegations entirely. Zoe was well aware of Alec's long battle with suicidal ideation, and was well aware of what consequences can befall someone nowadays when they're the target of abuse allegations on social media. Alec was effectively unpersoned in the indie game community, with no further career prospects in sight. The life he was working toward was brought to an abrupt end without so much as a scrap of evidence needed to do it. To me, Zoe killed that man, just as surely as if she had done the deed herself.

    It was a tragic and inevitable consequence of accepting allegations without evidence. Incidents like this just reinforce for me how vital it is to our society that we have a presumption of innocence in law. It's true that a lot of police departments have got some serious procedural problems that need fixing when it comes to following up on rape reports, but that's not a good enough reason for me to embrace mob justice and discard any need for evidence. Mobs are notoriously bad at critical thinking.

    (Disclaimer: this is not about Epstein)
    Last edited by Trance; 5th Oct 2019 at 10:12.

  23. #73
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    There is no such blanket policy, though? The default is still to discredit, find any and all excuses not to take such accusations seriously, try to poke hole in the story of the abused. It happened not that long ago with Christine Ford, for example. And isn't this happening with your very own example? Isn't that the first reaction she's getting? People "sleuthing" and trying to discredit her, and not at all rushing to take her seriously?

    When famous people like Epstein and Weinstein and Cosby face "mob justice", it's because they have been getting away with it so long, it's precisely because the system is so heavily tilted against the victims that the only recourse is for the "fake news press" to step in and for victims to come out in the open.

    Meanwhile, conservative pundits and internet reactionaries turn it around and make it all about men and male victimhood:

    Last edited by Starker; 5th Oct 2019 at 13:38.

  24. #74
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2003
    Location: Location, Location
    No, the first reaction, as I mentioned, was for Alec's professional ties to be cut from the outside by all his industry connections. People believed the accuser first, and only after he killed himself was anyone motivated to dig deeper. Meanwhile, Zoe Quinn continues to enjoy professional success with a new comic book deal with Marvel, unperturbed by the events of the past month. How is that justice?

  25. #75
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    And how do you know there weren't other issues that pushed people to cut ties? From your own article:

    Scott Benson, Holowka’s development teammate, issued a statement on Kickstarter after the decision to cut ties with Holowka was made, emphasizing that he had a continual history of emotional instability and behavioural problems that he had sought assistance for at different points in time. In the Kickstarter statement, Benson also noted that the termination was not a result of “mobbing” or other social pressures

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