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Thread: Why don´t FM creators open up a Patreon?

  1. #1
    New Member
    Registered: Oct 2018
    Location: Germany

    Why don´t FM creators open up a Patreon?

    Sometimes I wonder, looking overall types of artists having a Patreon, why do not dedicated FM creators have a Patreon?

    Would this not be the best for Creators and Players alike? The creator gets a hopefully steady decent income and their fans are able to get ever better missions, from people who might want to do this as a kinda job.

    Patreon could be either used as the main source of income or, how I think it will happen, an addition to the income.


    The FMs would still be free and public (one is not selling them), support would be incentivised through other means (Credits in the Description, etc.)

    The Creator could show his commitment to his supporters by posting regular updates, etc.

    Also, IMO people who make things for all of the community to use (TFix, FM Loaders, etc.) should already have a Patreon.

    I am not sure what the Communities stance will be, but I hope a consensus is reached allowing creators to better follow their passion and FM fans to "secure" quality content.

    And I am very unsure about all of the possible cons.

  2. #2
    Member
    Registered: May 2017
    Location: USA
    Not a legal expert, but I think this would be a violation, even if the FM is made available for free.

    I don’t think using DromEd for profit is allowed, under any circumstances. Not even something like: “hey, can I pay someone $100 to rig up this S/R deal that I can’t figure out?”

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: Full on Kevel's mom
    Would be kinda nice, but based on how small the community is, you couldn't really make a living off it. Especially multiple authors in one small community.

  4. #4
    New Member
    Registered: Oct 2018
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by trefoilknot View Post
    Not a legal expert, but I think this would be a violation, even if the FM is made available for free.

    I don’t think using DromEd for profit is allowed, under any circumstances. Not even something like: “hey, can I pay someone $100 to rig up this S/R deal that I can’t figure out?”
    In the DromED for TDP licence, it states: "Your levels must be distributed free of charge. Neither you nor anyone else may sell, rent, lease or commercially exploit these levels in any way. You may only exchange them at no charge to licensed users of Thief: The Dark Project."

    I interperate that it only talks about the distribution of levels, not being paid for the creation of the levels. So one is allowed to profit of making them, BUT NOT selling them.

    Keep in mind I am no expert either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Random_Taffer View Post
    Would be kinda nice, but based on how small the community is, you couldn't really make a living off it. Especially multiple authors in one small community.
    Yeah true, that's why I think people will mostly use it as an addition to their income. But maybe wit enough exposure from this fandom might grow considerably.
    Last edited by Yandros; 17th Sep 2019 at 10:45.

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Location: Ireland/Poland
    Pretty every FM author "stands on the shoulders of giants", so to speak. It would be seen as unfair, to be using resources made by others, and still making a profit using them, while most of community members did not. And even if you decide to use only own resources (which would take completing missions almost impossible), there's the Dromed knowledge, which had been shared here always for free. And how about beta-testers - would they be paid or not? It's a too gray area to even consider stepping into.

    However creating resources on their own, like models or textures, which are more or less game engine independent could qualify for a paid work without any legal issues. As long as no LGS tools have been used, like 3ds2bin converter etc..

    Another possibility could be maybe sponsoring a person/team to work on some resources, and chipping in to pay for the software - e.g. Substance Designer, Marverlous Designer or some texture pack or whatever to create let's say a set of 3D characters for entire community to use. This way, one would offer their work for free and the cost of tools would be covered by community.

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2011
    Location: Planet Crazy Pants
    Because:

    "Money Changes Everything" - Cindy Lauper

  7. #7
    New Member
    Registered: Oct 2018
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by ValmontPhl View Post
    Because:

    "Money Changes Everything" - Cindy Lauper
    Well, it could change for the better by giving Creators some stability so maybe bigger projects could be done more frequently.

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2014
    This is both a good and a bad idea:
    It is a good idea because Patreon would generate money to those who deserve it.
    It is a bad idea because it could easily make the FM makers greedy; adding exclusive missions, "pre-order", Patreon-only and so on.

    My issue with Patreon is exactly that, the guy/gal has a choice to make it purely free and the money is only donation-based, they will get nothing in return and maker gives them nothing in return.
    Sadly, there's also a choice of making it 'exclusive' which EVERY Patreon I know (except for one) does it.

    Nah, honestly, if you want to pay somebody for making an FM despite not being contracted by you for it (in short, donation) then just donate, PayPal or whichever way.

  9. #9
    New Member
    Registered: Oct 2018
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrohowl View Post
    This is both a good and a bad idea:
    It is a good idea because Patreon would generate money to those who deserve it.
    It is a bad idea because it could easily make the FM makers greedy; adding exclusive missions, "pre-order", Patreon-only and so on.

    My issue with Patreon is exactly that, the guy/gal has a choice to make it purely free and the money is only donation-based, they will get nothing in return and maker gives them nothing in return.
    Sadly, there's also a choice of making it 'exclusive' which EVERY Patreon I know (except for one) does it.

    Nah, honestly, if you want to pay somebody for making an FM despite not being contracted by you for it (in short, donation) then just donate, PayPal or whichever way.
    Aren´t exclusive missions prohibited by the DromED licence?

    I agree with you on most things but IMO some things are fine to be Patreon exclusive, like minor weakly progress updates.

    And I know some Patreon users who make everything free after about a months time.

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkDot View Post
    Pretty every FM author "stands on the shoulders of giants", so to speak. It would be seen as unfair, to be using resources made by others, and still making a profit using them, while most of community members did not. And even if you decide to use only own resources (which would take completing missions almost impossible), there's the Dromed knowledge, which had been shared here always for free. And how about beta-testers - would they be paid or not? It's a too gray area to even consider stepping into.

    However creating resources on their own, like models or textures, which are more or less game engine independent could qualify for a paid work without any legal issues. As long as no LGS tools have been used, like 3ds2bin converter etc..

    Another possibility could be maybe sponsoring a person/team to work on some resources, and chipping in to pay for the software - e.g. Substance Designer, Marverlous Designer or some texture pack or whatever to create let's say a set of 3D characters for entire community to use. This way, one would offer their work for free and the cost of tools would be covered by community.
    Yeah, this Custom object/resource issue needs a lot more discussion, but IMO it would not be unfair to anyone, but rather path the path to a better future (hopefully).
    Last edited by Yandros; 17th Sep 2019 at 10:45.

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2006
    Location: On the tip of your tongue.
    I don't think (and I may be wrong so don't quote me) that there's any legal problem with a mission author having a Patreon or similar setup as long as there's no direct connection to the mission itself, which would still be freely available to all - it's kinda like the equivalent of putting a tip jar out next to it.

    But I would say it's very much something that isn't in the spirit of this community, and I can't imagine you'd see much uptake from it.

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2016
    Location: The Mystic's Keep
    I'm pretty sure that it's not illegal, especially given the fact that the Elder Scrolls and Fallout communities all have modders with Patreon accounts blatantly on their mod pages. The dynamic is a lot different here, though. I don't think most of the old guard would ever do such a thing, meaning if new authors started doing it there would be a sudden divide in the community. I wouldn't do one (at least not specifically for making FMs) because a) who would give me money? and b) I would suddenly have pressure to actually put out new stuff, which I just don't have the time for right now.


    Incidentally I do plan on getting back to Dromed at some point, but it may not be until after I finish my degree sometime next year. Real life stuff has very much gotten in the way. Still, I definitely have time to do voice acting for the upcoming contest *wink wink*.

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    If an author released a mission full of bugs, or if a Newdark update further on down the line caused a game breaking bug such as the AICurrentPatrol links issue that cropped up in ND 1.27, how would I get my money back?

  13. #13
    New Member
    Registered: Oct 2018
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by nicked View Post
    I don't think (and I may be wrong so don't quote me) that there's any legal problem with a mission author having a Patreon or similar setup as long as there's no direct connection to the mission itself, which would still be freely available to all - it's kinda like the equivalent of putting a tip jar out next to it.

    But I would say it's very much something that isn't in the spirit of this community, and I can't imagine you'd see much uptake from it.
    I am very interested how this would be against the spirit, sure its a quite drastic innovation, but as long it is optional (nobody expects to be paid) and supports the work I do not see any problems, but I could be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by McTaffer View Post
    I'm pretty sure that it's not illegal, especially given the fact that the Elder Scrolls and Fallout communities all have modders with Patreon accounts blatantly on their mod pages. The dynamic is a lot different here, though. I don't think most of the old guard would ever do such a thing, meaning if new authors started doing it there would be a sudden divide in the community. I wouldn't do one (at least not specifically for making FMs) because a) who would give me money? and b) I would suddenly have pressure to actually put out new stuff, which I just don't have the time for right now.


    Incidentally I do plan on getting back to Dromed at some point, but it may not be until after I finish my degree sometime next year. Real life stuff has very much gotten in the way. Still, I definitely have time to do voice acting for the upcoming contest *wink wink*.
    If Patreon would become a thing here would especially hope the ones with already a lot of credit would take it up, because in other games some established modders really pushed it to new heights and I am hoping that would happen here.

    The difference in dynamics is also worth to talk about because from my experience most game forums seem quite similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by fortuni View Post
    If an author released a mission full of bugs, or if a Newdark update further on down the line caused a game breaking bug such as the AICurrentPatrol links issue that cropped up in ND 1.27, how would I get my money back?
    Would that not lay on the back of the author and ones own leniency with mistakes? I mean, I would only back someone if they had a good reputation, so I would excuse some missteps.
    Last edited by Yandros; 17th Sep 2019 at 10:44.

  14. #14
    Dóttirin klćđist oft móđur möttli
    Registered: Apr 2015
    In FM creation too many people and helpful hands are involved. It's a work of the community. You can see the authors name, but that's not everything as PinkDot already pointed out.
    Scripts, resources, translation and so on.

    fortuni, greedy as always. He was playing "Hidden Stone" recently. Mr. Greed is haunting him now, since fortuni killed the guy and took the money

  15. #15
    New Member
    Registered: Oct 2018
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by Unna Oertdottir View Post
    In FM creation too many people and helpful hands are involved. It's a work of the community. You can see the authors name, but that's not everything as PinkDot already pointed out.
    Scripts, resources, translation and so on.

    fortuni, greedy as always. He was playing "Hidden Stone" recently. Mr. Greed is haunting him now, since fortuni killed the guy and took the money
    Yeah, maybe they should receive support too. But there are a lot of ways to handle such a situation, maybe it is the main artist's responsibility or another way. More discourse needed IMO.

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    @ SilentDragon

    Maybe my comment above didn't fully explain my position. Authors receiving a gratitude in any way for their work opens a ugly can of worms. What if the mission wasn't as good as the teaser screenshots implied, what if the story line caused offence, what does an author, who has received a large amount of Patreon up front, do if they don't take kindly to any criticism on the forum for their mission, do they refuse to make more missions?

    What about newbie authors, how much do they expect and how will they feel if someone else receives a lot more for a mission that is arguably no better than theirs?

    There are some authors that are held in high regard in this community, does a small number of authors receive 90% of the Patreon whilst everybody else scrambles for a few left over pennies, and what ill feeling could that generate?

    We have had a constant stream of new authors, years after Thief was a 'chart topping' game and that is in no small measure due to the fact that this community welcomes all authors, all missions and all contributions with equal respect, and as ValmontPhl said, money changes everything.

    I myself must have spent 10,000+ hours over the last 7 years writing walkthroughs, lootlists, updating the mission by type thread, the brief summaries, beta testing, bug testing & fixing older missions, reviews, making maps and more. Should I expect a gratitude for all that work, only giving access to all that work to those that line my pocket, or should I cease all behind the scenes work because other are making more when I'm struggling to pay my day to day bills.

    I do what I do because it's my hobby, in gives me a massive amount of fulfillment, but if I was chasing the filthy lucre then all may become a chore, no longer a pleasure and like most other money making tasks my heart would not be in it to to the right thing but to make as many bucks as fast as I could.

    Yes money changes everything.

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Germany
    All in my humble opinion:

    The very reason why we have this incredible little community that still provides fans of the game with new content (not only missions but also enhancements that put many other popular games to *shame*) has exactly ZERO to do with monetary compensation.

    This single reason is what we all have around here and what unites us:

    LOVE

    Love for the Thief games, love for playing them, love for creating for them.

    I believe that we wouldn't have what he have today - 20 years after the first Thief game was published - if there wasn't this much love for it.
    The anniversary missions for T1 showed exactly that and I'm 1000% sure that we will have sensational T2 anniversary missions.

    This little community thrived though it lacked a money element - and it probably still thrives *because* it lacked it.

    And when somebody who contributed so much departs from this community we truly know what love is.

    * * *

    As fortuni says: Money changes everything.

    As an old German proverb says: "Mit Geld hört die Freundschaft auf!" (rough translation: "Friendship ends with money!").

  18. #18
    Member
    Registered: May 2017
    Location: USA
    I agree with all the above comments about money having some potentially negative impacts on the community. I think a better model, if the goal is just to help people generate some income for their efforts, would be more of a “task rabbit” approach. If you get bogged down scripting something tricky, it’d be nice to just plunk some cash down in exchange for a more expert DromEder’s expertise. Obviously, this is an easy out, but there are some major efficiencies to be gained from this sort of division of labor.

    This would sidestep a lot of the concerns voiced above, but wouldn’t be totally risk free from a community standpoint. It’d be a shame to lose the “we help each other out because we like to” spirit. Still, it seems a more realistic path, IMO. I know I certainly have a lot of painful scripting in my future that I would pay good money to outsource, if anyone is interested...

  19. #19
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    Location: Dromed Detention Room
    I suspect nothing would kill the fulfillment faster than turning the hobby into an obligation.

  20. #20
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: The Inverted Manse
    Quote Originally Posted by uncadonego View Post
    I suspect nothing would kill the fulfillment faster than turning the hobby into an obligation.
    That.

  21. #21
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2001
    Location: 0x0x0
    Quote Originally Posted by fortuni View Post
    If an author released a mission full of bugs, or if a Newdark update further on down the line caused a game breaking bug such as the AICurrentPatrol links issue that cropped up in ND 1.27, how would I get my money back?
    You won't! Muahahahahahah! IT'S MINE, ALL MINE! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2011
    Patreon is a crowdfunding platform, emphasis on crowd.. We are a very small niche community, a few dollars won't change anything for the authors.

  23. #23
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2004
    Location: Cape Breton Nova Scotia Canada
    Patreon ruins every platform it's involved with,. YouTube anyone? When money is the motivation the community would die.

  24. #24
    Member
    Registered: May 2016
    How about a donate button?

    You liked a mission, you come back to show your gratitude for it if you want. No obligations. Simple.

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: Sep 1999
    Location: Austin, TX
    It's already been said but I very much agree that a new author can feel discouraged without contributors, when really, what ever they end up releasing will be a good experience for them, which will be denied if they become discouraged. And we won't get to play a new mission.

    If anyone feels like being generous and want to donate to the cause of this community, I recommend donating to this site https://www.ttlg.com/donate/

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