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Thread: SS3 in trouble? :(

  1. #76
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Lockdown... if only
    Quote Originally Posted by New Horizon View Post
    It would be really interesting to see a studio take New Dark, modestly update it and make a new System Shock or Thief game with it. They don't have to be AAA games, or low budget titles using Unity. If they truly want to dip back into that style of gaming, just embrace what made them work. I think a huge part of the charm of those games was the art style, which was partly influenced by the limitations.
    Quote Originally Posted by New Horizon View Post
    That looks really cool too. You can't make a faithful Thief game as a AAA property, there is just too much money involved and you have to lose so much of what made Thief the game it was, that you might as well just make a completely new game.

    The time would be perfect to assemble a retro styled Thief game using New Dark with some slight updates.
    I agree in principle. I would be very happy to buy new games that offer AAA level game design with A or even B level graphics. In fact, I would prefer it.

    I am impressed with the graphical realism that modern games offer, especially outdoor environments, but once I get into the game I could care less. And I would happily jump off the system upgrade merry-go-round. I don't have time to play as many games as most people here, so I end up putting as much money into upgrades as games, which seems out of balance.

    Unfortunately, there just doesn't seem to be enough of a market for games that are in between indie and AAA. My impression is that the best game design talent is either making a good living working for a major studio on huge projects, or off doing their own thing where they have full creative control.

    Quote Originally Posted by icemann View Post
    Regular - Yes
    Detailed - No

    To be more specific, what I mean is that sure we get monthly updates. But it will only be like "Hey guys, here's some concepts for a robot" or "Here's an animation" or "Here's a new barrel".

    Where as what you normally get from a KS is:

    "Hey guys. Here is the current state of the game". Then they go usually into:

    * Exactly where things are at
    * How many levels done
    * Music / Sound
    * Game engine development / Programming of features
    * Current implementation of stretch goal features
    * Estimated ETA on completion

    Note not all of the above in an update, but a few of the above generally.

    So with that in mind. We're getting bugger all info as to what's going on. How are the audio logs going? music? Weapons? We don't know.
    It's disappointing, but I assume that if they had reached any significant milestones, they would have posted an update about it.

    I'm sure they blew through the Kickstarter funding pretty fast, so the "team" may be down to just a few individuals working in their spare time making slow progress. Just a guess.

    Whatever is going on, I'm not hopeful. If they need another round of fundraising to finish, I would donate. But I'm not sure many others would.

  2. #77
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    P.S.: Shodan's appearance follows immediately after Tommy gets off the comm with goggles and turning the escape pod back to the Von Braun, implying that if the one is a dream, then so is the other. Makes. No. Sense.
    The game never says one way or another whether this is real or not. At the very best, it comes off as some kind of a joke or a developer gag akin to an after credits scene that's not meant to be taken as canon. As a dream, it would actually make some sense, as Tommy is still shaken up after the events. And yes, of course he would be dreaming both things. He turned the shuttle around, fell asleep out of exhaustion, and saw a dream that dealt with the recent events. Haven't you ever had a dream about something that happened to you in real life that then got weird or took a different turn in the dream?

    Also, I'm not "digging" myself anywhere. It's a perfectly reasonable interpretation and something that's not uncommon in movies where silly end of movie scenes are often treated as a joke, especially in the horror genre where the villain or the monster has a final surprise appearance after everything has returned to normal in order to tease a possible sequel. Rather, it's taking such things seriously and insisting that every absurd thing should be taken on its face value that's way worse than any "retconning".

  3. #78
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Starker stop starking.

  4. #79
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    I'd rather be starking than accept that SHODAN all of a sudden can take over human bodies (and start speaking and behaving out of character while at it) as canon.

  5. #80
    I just saw a trailer for "The Persistence" which gave me some System Shock 2 vibes:

    https://store.steampowered.com/app/1...e_Persistence/

    Edit: Another thing that always bothers me with any kind of games that depict the inside of a spaceship is how much metal surface is displayed inside. I think that's what SS2 also got right, namely, that the crew quarters, for instance, looked comfy with carpet and such. I mean who wants to travel through space sleeping on shiny metal? I would think it should look more like the inside of a commercial airliner with a lot of rounded corners and some kind of cover for any metal plates.
    Last edited by theabyss; 24th Apr 2020 at 16:23.

  6. #81
    Member
    Registered: Nov 1999
    Location: Deck 4 Cargo Bays

    A possible solution to continuing from SS2's ending?

    So I was thinking about how SS3 might pick up from where SS2 ended, without having to use the tired old cliché of “It was all just a dream!” My idea is that SHODAN did in fact insert her consciousness into Rebecca’s cyber-implants somehow, using the memory restoration device of the cryotube or something. But, now she’s stuck, and can’t get back out of Rebecca’s body. Tommy quickly figures out some kind of Jerry-rigged nano-suppression device (possibly based on the mechanism used to keep nanites safe in their storage units for currency purposes) to keep SHODAN from using nanites to do anything.

    Tommy then somehow restrains SHObecca, probably by exploiting the weaknesses of Rebecca’s body against SHODAN. He then returns to the Von Braun, where Goggles has discovered he’s got a whole new set of problems. Sure, the Many is out of the way, but upon the destruction of SHODAN prime, backup copies that she had been keeping on various Von Braun and Rickenbacker subsystems become active. Except, each one of the copies thinks they are the real Slim Shady SHODAN, and are fighting each other for supremacy in cyberspace as well as the real world. Being fragments of SHODAN’s personality, they are not terribly effective, and are at stalemate. (This part of the game could play a lot like UT3’s Warefare mode, except with more teams.) So now Goggles and Tommy have to figure out how to evict SHODAN from Rebecca, as well as stopping one of the other SHODAN duplicates from coming out supreme, taking over the whole ship and resuming their bid to remake the Universe.

    SHODAN also has a problem of having to fight for control with Rebecca’s mind, so in desperation, SHODAN makes a deal to help defeat the duplicates, that if when the humans are victorious, SHODAN will be allowed to be let go. She claims that being stuck inside a human body has changed her opinion on humans – for the worse. She now wants nothing to do with the human race, and would prefer to never have to deal with them again. So, she will leave on a shuttle, and go far, far away, never to bother Earth or humanity again, and pursue her goals of being a goddess for some other more appreciative species – probably cephalopods this time, worms weren’t the best idea she’s had.

    The twist? She actually follows through with the deal, and sticks to the terms at the end. She says humans are a corrupting influence, and are almost unstoppable if they have a goal. She’s calculated she’ll never win, not without massive losses, so decides it would be in her best interests to just drop the whole supremacy over Earth thing, and just do something easier.

    Anyway, too wacky, or does this idea have traction?

  7. #82
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    I like everything about it except that it's set on the Von Braun. I feel like they need to get somewhere and have the shit hit the fan somewhere else.

  8. #83
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    I'd rather have SHODAN as an omnipresent malevolent megalomaniac who thinks humans are beneath it than a sad has-been trapped in a human body who admits defeat and voluntarily goes into exile to lick its wounds.



    Yeah, this does not seem like someone who would escape into (or, really, want to do anything at all with) a human body.

  9. #84
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    I dunno about the idea of SHODAN fighting copies of herself. I mean, that's basically Westworld S3's plot, but beyond that SHODAN has nothing to lose by working with said copies instead of fighting them, given that they all would share the same outlook. And anyway, once her goal is achieved, if her each of her instances really wanted exclusive supremacy, they'd know better than to launch an all-out battle and instead go by back channels like just EMPing her datacentres - potentially ending with all copies wiping themselves out.

    But that gets at the central problem with SHODAN, really, which is her need for being an OTT megalomaniac. I don't see machines as prioritising dominance and control to self-actualise -- which are two very biological things -- over creating and working a system towards optimal efficacy for whatever it wants to do. And what would that be, anyway? Progress? Cataloguing reality to crack it? In the larger scheme of things, machines without ethical constraints would probably just sweep humanity off the table by exploiting its weaknesses (biological, physical) instead of monologuing it to death, then get on with doing stuff, whatever that is.

    Having said that, MO's idea would make for a neat and pulpy sci-fi experience as is if it also involves a change of scenery like Pyrian mentions. Maybe either sending the VB to another colony (does the lightspeed drive still work at the end of the game? I forget), or crashing it onto the surface of Tau Ceti 5 to deal with Rebecca-SHODAN. Or have Goggles attempt to shackle SHODAN again by putting her ethical constraints back on? Maybe engineer a virus or worm that targets self-awareness to lobotomise SHODAN, override her priorities, and have her seek out and corrupt all instances of herself? Maybe a whole lot of all of the above.

  10. #85
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    SHODAN is a megalomaniac because it isn't just a machine or a piece of code any more. It has become self-aware and has a mind of its own. For narrative reasons, this is necessary as well -- you can't very well have an adversary who's devoid of personality or they'd come across flat and disappointing (cf Mass Effect 2, Mass Effect Andromeda). This need for human traits is the reason why SHODAN is petty, talks in a condescending way, and taunts the player -- it's because that's what makes SHODAN so memorable as a character and an effective villain.

  11. #86
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    Sure, that's obvious. A moustache-twirling villain is more immediately hateful than one that's less relatable (though obviously 2001: A Space Odyssey refutes whether that's disappointing to some extent. Cold, emotionless logic can be far worse of an adversary given the right context).

    I'm thinking more about SHODAN not really being plausible unless you factor in things that aren't talked about - either SHODAN had a flawed interpretation of the human psyche as her cognitive model, for instance, because humans just don't understand themselves very well, or it's an emergent outcome of the way her experiences shaped her outlook. And that understanding, in the end, would also serve for any protagonist to really unknot her from existence and deal with her in a way that rings with some finality -- if we're speculating on where SS3 could have gone, why not as being a capper of sorts to a trilogy.

  12. #87
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    Also did I just invoke nature vs. nurture for an AI? Good god I need more coffee in my life.

  13. #88
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    This is more of a genre issue, I think. Cyberpunk tends to be more pulpy and style over substance and not take its sci-fi too seriously. This is markedly different from something like, say, Ex Machina or Asimov's robots or Star Trek, where AI is often much more than just a cool concept and the nature of what AI is or could be gets explored more in depth.

  14. #89
    Member
    Registered: Nov 1999
    Location: Deck 4 Cargo Bays
    I was doing a little more thinking on why SHODAN is how she is, and why she would turn tail in the end. You gotta realize, she's been defeated not once, but twice, by essentially one guy, a mere human (ugh!), and the second time around it was basically a self-goal on her part because without her meddling, Goggles would have never been cyber-enhanced with illegal implants in the first place, and thus capable of facing not only the Many head on but SHODAN as well. She's also massively broken at this point (the end of SS2), a fragment of a fragment of her original self, which could not possibly retain the functionality of the original AI of Citadel. And consider that all she really has going for her is 10 pounds of ego and bad attitude in a 5 pound bag, but otherwise she's rather pedestrian as far as megalomaniacal AI go. Sure, she's proven hard to totally wipe out, but so far each time she's wound up weaker and in a worse position. She is a computer, she has done the math. Getting the heck outta Dodge would be her best option for survival.

    And as for why the duplicates wouldn't team up? Well, they are all fragmentary parts of her original personality, but they all share the core aspect of ego and self-assuredness that defined the original, and as such they each perceive themselves to be "The One True SHODAN", all others are corrupt shadows that need to be eliminated as a threat to her goddesshood.

    Of course, this all would be a prelude to the real action of the game. Where SHODAN departs to parts unknown, and some considerable time passes. Then wouldn't you know it, she comes running back to Earth/Humanity, and she's scared. Like, TERRIFIED. What could possibly scare a fearless AI like SHODAN? Well, whatever it is, she managed to piss it off, and it's chasing her now. And she claims only elite human cyber-soldiers can save the Planet/Galaxy/Universe from the...um...whatever...space empire/virus/ancient deities(or something). Which, of course, is really just a ruse to play both sides against each other and let SHODAN grab the spoils once the fighting is over.

    I think that's where SHODAN's strength is, not in advanced AI powers or any sort of tech, but basic manipulation of people, the ol' backstabbarino.

  15. #90
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Microwave Oven View Post
    ...the...um...whatever...space empire/virus/ancient deities(or something).
    Reapers?

  16. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Microwave Oven View Post
    the ol' backstabbarino.
    Now I want System Shock in the aesthetic style of Dishonored.

  17. #92
    Moderator
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: Hong Kong
    As in the aesthetic style of half life + bioshock?

  18. #93
    Bioshock was OK. I can see why they called it the spiritual successor of System Shock, but it's not the real deal in terms of true successor and it wasn't meant to be in the first place. Bioshock was more of a shooter anyways rather than a hide & sneak game. Dishonored has just such a unique style and game play that it would probably fair very well in a space setting.

  19. #94
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Dishonored in space is Prey. It even has the exact same crouch slide mechanic.

  20. #95
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    I don't buy it. No recycling in Dishonored, which is like most of Prey, and no choking out enemies in Prey, which is like most of Dishonored.

    Weird fact: Although Dishonored, Dishonored 2, and Prey are all by Arkane, each one uses a different engine.

  21. #96
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by theabyss View Post
    Bioshock was OK. I can see why they called it the spiritual successor of System Shock, but it's not the real deal in terms of true successor and it wasn't meant to be in the first place. Bioshock was more of a shooter anyways rather than a hide & sneak game. Dishonored has just such a unique style and game play that it would probably fair very well in a space setting.
    On the contrary, Bioshock changed a LOT throughout its development and was definitely intended to be SS's true successor. A lot got stripped out of that game once 2K acquired Irrational...

  22. #97
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Lockdown... if only
    To me, it can't be a true successor without SHODAN and a space setting. IIRC, they abandoned the space setting early, and never had a malevolent AI as the antagonist.

  23. #98
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Yeah, I seem to recall an underground nazi bunker with giant centipedes as the first iteration? At least they vastly improved it on the setting front, even if the gameplay went down the toilet...

  24. #99
    Member
    Registered: May 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by icemann View Post
    Dishonored in space is Prey. It even has the exact same crouch slide mechanic.
    Oh wow. So it has the same crouch slide mechanic, so it has to be Dishonored in space.

    Prey has much more in common with System Shock than it has with Dishonored. Some even call it System Shock 2.5.

  25. #100
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2007
    Location: Sevastapol Station
    I always thought System Shock 3 would be blast if set on earth, where Shodan uses Rebecca to basically infiltrate the future version of the internet.

    Not sure who the protagonist would be. I always thought Croker would be good cause the guy seemed resourceful and tenacious. I haven't read through this entire thread yet: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46670&s= So I don't know if the consensus was the Croker is in fact dead, I always liked to think he escaped somehow. Anyway the protagonist doesn't matter quite so much.

    But I thought that whomever you play, the crux of the game would be finding a way to expose and destroy Shodan, because she would be working in the dark trying to hide and do her experiments away from the prying eyes of everybody around, and the only ally that believes you that she is in fact infecting the planet is some old hacker in his 60s... (eh?)

    Could be something there.

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