TTLG|Thief|Bioshock|System Shock|Deus Ex|Mobile
Page 109 of 116 FirstFirst ... 9596469747984899499104105106107108109110111112113114 ... LastLast
Results 2,701 to 2,725 of 2892

Thread: ☣ Coronavirus ☣

  1. #2701
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    It's not just that I'm lazy. (Agreed, I am lazy). In my experience, discussions are often because two people talk about something different, while thinking they discuss the same thing. I wanted to prevent that, by asking a simple question. I even said that once I get the executive summary, I'll go back and read the details. I thought that was a very small favor to ask. Apparently not.

  2. #2702
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirith View Post
    To be fair, peer review has been criticised a lot in recent years because all too often it isn't done particularly well, also because scientists have been conditioned (by universities, funders, politics, media etc.) to behave in a number of less than helpful ways. But that's generally peer review *as practiced*, not the general principle itself, and most of what I've seen and read is about how peer review needs to change, not that it should be abolished in favour of a different, better system. Same with science and the scientific method. There's a lot of misconduct, toxic behaviours and lopsided incentive structures that, to be addressed, would need to be revised from the ground up, but that's mainly about the current institutions, mechanisms and processes, less about the underlying principles. And if the critique is basically a more verbose version of "Well, people are a bit shit, aren't they?", then that's neither incisive nor particularly helpful. The more specific one's understanding of the shortcomings of scientific processes and institution, the more they actually bring something to the table. Grand sweeping statements tend to be so much wank.
    As indeed has been said by faetal and alluded to by myself.

  3. #2703
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    It's not just that I'm lazy. (Agreed, I am lazy). In my experience, discussions are often because two people talk about something different, while thinking they discuss the same thing. I wanted to prevent that, by asking a simple question. I even said that once I get the executive summary, I'll go back and read the details. I thought that was a very small favor to ask. Apparently not.
    I think this statement by Thirith sums it up better than I ever could: "Sure, you're free to read as little and write as much as you want, but everyone else is free to find your attitude of "Tell me what I've missed and I'll tell you where you're wrong" tiresome."

    Aaaaaaand then you continue to make accusations based on your lack of knowledge of what went on. Not exactly an endearing quality or prone to make one helpful.

  4. #2704
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Gryz - either read the thread or don't. Since you've no skin in the game, I don't see any value in using my time to give you a summary.

    Also yes, science isn't perfect. Nothing involving humans ever will be. That doesn't mean that it's open season on any alternative system of thought without that system priving its chops to the point that science is recognised as inferior.
    Not to mention that science is (or is meant to be) self-improving. It's not a rigid "we do science how it's always been done and that's that" principal, it's an endeavour which is tasked with getting to what seems to be the stablest thing equivalent to truth, however that may be, within the logical frameworks put together following millennia of philosophy dealing with questions like "how do we know if something is probably true or not?".

    People need to remember that science is the end result of philosophy, not a selfi-ontained discipline which winked into existence when a guy with a labcoat poured two coloured liquids into a beaker and shouted eureka.
    The main thing holding science back is (as with a lot of things) capitalism.

    Publication is funnelled through a cartel of journals who charge a ludicrous amount for access for universities and individuals, which doesn't help with access (not to mention that researchers have to pay to publish in a lot of journals - the costs for colour figures can make this ludicrous). Then there's the publish or perish presure on academics which can lead to some struggling scientists falsifying their research, but that's not a flaw of science, it's just waht happens if you put humans in the position os searching for facts, then ask them for PAPERS GOD DAMMIT. Having worked as an academic, I can attest to how miserable it is to be basically having to apply for your job every 2-5 years depending on how steady your funding is. Add to this that most people don't publish negative results (x didn't work because Y, thus probably our hypothesis was wrong) because they aren't sexy / don't look good on a CV, so many hypotheses are doomed to be repeated until the end of time, becuase no one can find any papers saying that it's probably not worthwhile.

    If you took capitalism out of science and just paid people to do science, it would work a lot better. But it's not the method which is at fault - any flaws in the method can be addressed and patched with improvements, without changing what science essentially is - a philosophical framework allowing the iterative development of models which allows us to observe, describe, and manipulate the natural universe.

  5. #2705
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Science is not about an impossible perfection, it's about robusteness versus personal *inavoidable* distortion of the scientific method (the "attunement" I'm talking about) due to psychological motivation of a specific scientist.

    The real problem is when science steps into society as a *regulation factor* (classic epidemic case like Coronavirus emergecy). Read Paul Feyerabend
    'cause science needs a kind of "internal sociology", not simply epystemology to solve/tackle the old classic Hume problem (What is scientific? What is scientifically correct?)

    People simply do NOT want a priest caste with a labcoat and scientific method vs a priest caste with a cope and scholastic doctrine.
    That's how rejection starts and it's why science needs MORE than the "knowledge structure" (the scientific method, the peer reviewing, etc) to adher to.
    The fact that "science does it right, science does it best" is not SO relevant. Really, it's not how mankind accepts "rules" and interfaces with a "framework".

    So please do not talk about "perfection", it's NOT a "perfection" problem (childish view). It's all about the social relationship aspect of the "scientist" figure.
    That's the issue when we talk about science in a social context (climate change, SARS 2 epidemic, etc.).
    Last edited by lowenz; 30th Jun 2020 at 14:26.

  6. #2706
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Quote Originally Posted by lowenz View Post
    due to psychological motivation of a specific scientist.
    Not these days. It's due to research topics, devised by scientists, in collaboration with their group, aligned with the interests of their institution, are sufficiently justified in order to be granted for funding.
    There is very little room for whimsy.

    Read Paul Feyerabend
    Quote a relevant passage from Paul Feyerabend, or don't introduce him into the topic. Saying an author's name doesn't grant credibility.

    'cause science needs a kind of "internal sociology", not simply epystemology to solve/tackle the old classic Hume problem (What is scientific? What is scientifically correct?)
    What does this even mean? Hume's work is a lot broader than just being able to be lobbed into a sentence. Again, don't try to sound smart by quoting names of authors - no one is going to fall for it.

    People simply do NOT want a priest caste with a labcoat and scientific method vs a priest caste with a cope and scholastic doctrine.
    No one is trying to be that.

    That's how rejection starts and it's why science needs MORE than the "knowledge structure" (the scientific method, the peer reviewing, etc) to adher to.
    The fact that "science does it right, science does it best is not SO relevant. Really, it's not how mankind accepts "rules" and interfaces with a "framework".
    Yes, I have been invovled in scientific outreach work, which does this. The problem is not that people don't get to connect with science, the problem is that science moves cuatiously, produces ambiguous results, which are iterated upon and which are not sexy. The media decides to report this as "X CAUSES CANCER. NOW X DOES NOT CAUSE CANCER. ACTUALLY X DOES CAUSE CANCER, BUT A DIFFERENT TYPE TO THE ONE WE THOUGHT. ACTUALLY X IS OK IN MODERATION" to the point where people get exasperated because science can't make its mind up. Science is a discipline, not a giant club with a single leader - it isn't possible for science to control how the media reports it (and god knows we try). Your understanding of science seems a bit 2-dimensional and cartoonish.

    So please do not talk about "perfection", it's NOT a "perfection" problem (childish view). It's all about the social relationship aspect of the "scientist" figure.
    That's the issue when we talk about science in a social context (climate change, SARS 2 epidemic, etc.).
    The only reason we are talking about perfection is due to your inability to articulate what you mean. We have been responding directly to your comments.
    If you want to contribute, try waffling less, skip name-dropping authors unless you want to contextualise and try to be a little more precise in how you make your points. You seem to value how smart your prose seems over how useful it is.

  7. #2707
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by faetal View Post
    You seem to value how smart your prose seems over how useful it is.
    May I just say yea verily? I've been wondering for the past three pages when this dancer would remember he wasn't dancing by himself but had a partner, that being the subject of this thread. I keep expecting lowenz to tie his ramblings to the Corona virus in some way and it just never happens. All we get are vague tilts at science. There should be some POINT. I mean, it can't be don't trust science though it has the best chance of figuring things out can it? It's not trust conspiracy theories like nbohr1more, surely, so what is it? WHAT IS IT? Please, please, for the love of all that is precious, let us know. The wait for denouement is killing me. Drop the other damn shoe lowenz. WHAT IS YOUR POINT?
    Last edited by Tocky; 1st Jul 2020 at 08:07.

  8. #2708
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    I think the point is that science is a subversion of natural human thought, thus is rejected because it doesn't hit the right tone with people.
    I think that's debatable really. When people like nbohr are rejecting not just science, but basic in-flow logic, you have to wonder what this internal sociology looks like in order to appeal not only to people who actually like logic, science and the pursuit of better models of truth, but also to people who just want their won internal theories to be proven correct.

    Lots of dressing and very little actual meal in lowenz's discussion - nothing which makes me want to hear more, since it's so vague and high level.

  9. #2709
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Subvert me baby. Natural is the most boring dull witted shit. Logic gets my nipples hard.

  10. #2710
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    Maybe some more info on lowentz's background or education would reveal a bit more about his approach? It seems to me that he just reads wikipedia or philosophy books in his leisure time and he's not really concerned with any interpretation canon or anything beyond his own musings on the topic.

    Also, IIRC, the major thing Hume tried to investigate was whether there is a way to establish a logically infallible connection between cause and effect. He worked most of his life on this, but in the end he had to admit that, in all honesty, he isn't able to prove it.

  11. #2711
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    This is primarily why Popper's falsifiability forms some of the basis for scientific method. The primary aim of most scientific investigation is to disprove a null hypothesis.
    If I want to look at e.g. whether or not compound A less to reduced expression of protein X, I won't be trying to do that per se, I'll be making the null hypothesis "Compound A has no effect on levels of protein X", then use appropriate statistical tests on experimental data to see if the null hypothesis can be rejected.

  12. #2712
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Jafaville New Zealand
    What the fuck Melbourne.

  13. #2713
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    It doesn't pay to make predictions.

  14. #2714
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Looks like the US is experiencing their own unique version of the trolley problem:


  15. #2715
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    I must say, I'm getting rather impatient waiting for this second wave we're supposed to be getting in the UK.

    We were supposed to get a second spike because of the VE Day celebrations, then we were supposed to get a second spike because of the bank holiday. When lockdown rules were relaxed in the middle of a glorious spell of weather, we were supposed to get a second spike from everyone who went to the beach, then we were supposed to get a second spike from all the Liverpool fans congregating to celebrate winning the league. Last week the pubs reopened, and that was supposed to herald a second spike. However coronavirus cases continue to drop - as, indeed, they have been since before we even went into lockdown.

    Where are you, second spike?!

  16. #2716
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Takes time. Lockdown reduced number of overall cases, incubation time is up to 2 weeks. When you hit a critical number of people out and active with the virus, we should see a sharp uptick in cases and deaths again.
    Most of the chatter I'm hearing from scientist friends are that a second wave proper is likely to hit around autumn.

  17. #2717
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    And remember, there is a large reservoir of asymptomatic carriers out there. Just because people aren't dropping in the streets right now doesn't mean it's not getting around. Mostly younger people at those gatherings and they are the ones more likely to show no symptoms.



    Lots of dressing and very little actual meal
    I have heard it described as the pizza-cutter method, all edge with no point.
    Last edited by Nicker; 9th Jul 2020 at 23:46.

  18. #2718
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    Looks like the US is experiencing their own unique version of the trolley problem:

    My impression of the problem is a little different. There seems to be a large number of people who just don't see the trolley or the people on the track.

    I *still* keep hearing some people spread the media hoax argument. They say that it's no worse than the flu. And the death counts are bogus because nobody dies from COVID-19, it's just a contributing factor to deaths from other diseases or health issues. And no more people are dying now than in a normal year.

    Although those views are definitely in the minority now, there's a large percentage of people, probably a majority, saying anyone who is vulnerable can stay safe by just isolating themselves, and healthy people have nothing to fear. So we can just isolate a relatively small population of vulnerable individuals until there's a vaccine or herd immunity, and the rest of us can just go about our lives normally.

    There's also a lot of people saying masks aren't effective, and people who wear one are just virtue signaling or making a political statement.

    And here is the kind of support we get from some of our government:

    https://www.facebook.com/RepVitale/p...42895512455145
    https://www.facebook.com/RepVitale/p...31087723635924

  19. #2719
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    Every time I hear people saying any of those things, heywood, my blood pressure rises.

    Apart from the Scilly Isles, my county had the lowest number of cases (58) and deaths (7) in the UK. The council worked very quickly to introduce measures and close things like holiday homes, caravan parks and universities. Today Wales is open to tourists again. I think I'll be wearing 2 masks if I go out which I probably won't. Maybe next year.

  20. #2720
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Jafaville New Zealand
    And here I am working the busiest day of the ski season so far. All the open hills here in NZ had to close the roads by 09:00 because they were at capacity.

  21. #2721
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    I hope all this mess shakes out by late spring next year. I want to take my wife on a tour of England and Scotland then. We aren't getting any younger and I want to finally do that before we become less mobile. Right now Americans are persona non grata passport wise in a lot of places.

  22. #2722
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Just elect Biden and doors will open.

    Also we will be in No Deal Brexit next year, so our currency will be worth as much as chocolate buttons. You'll be able to spend like drunken sailors on shore leave.

  23. #2723
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    I will certainly do my part... on both the election and drunken sailor fronts.

  24. #2724
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    I have the same reaction nickie. The rate of spread of the virus has been responding predictably to changes in community behavior, so if you pay attention you can spot a train wreck coming from a long way away, with plenty of time to change direction and avoid it. It's easy to look around the world, or even just look around the country, and see what strategies are working and not. But here in the US, it seems like every state and every major city adopts a lackadaisical attitude until they're in an epidemic and their hospitals are filling up. It's really frustrating.

    I'll admit part of my frustration comes from self interest. We got pretty well over the first wave in my area, and the chances looked good that my kids could return to school. But as soon as the state lifted restrictions, the party mindset starting kicking in, and people got sloppy with mask wearing and keeping distance. For example, we were regularly getting take-out from our two favorite restaurants to help them through the pandemic. They were being really careful at first. But as soon as they were allowed to re-open indoor dining at reduced capacity, they started slacking off. I just picked up a takeout order on Thursday night and the place was packed to pre-pandemic levels: every table full, not limiting to 50% capacity like they're supposed to, not keeping 6 ft separation between tables like they're supposed to, with people waiting for tables crowding around the bar and hostess station, and people pulling down their masks to talk. Needless to say, they've lost my business for the time being.

    The case curve here was declining through the 3rd week of June, then flattened out due to re-opening, and is now looking uncertain. In another week or two, we should see the effect of people's behavior over the Independence Day holiday week, and I expect it will go up. If there's a clear upward trend by August, that's likely to change the situation re: schools, which will really tick me off.

    Another reason for frustration is that I'm finally realizing just how much this country has devolved since the great recession.
    Last edited by heywood; 12th Jul 2020 at 15:20.

  25. #2725
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2010

    At the end of February and early March, Trump had become fixated on masks.

    He was "ANNOYED" that "THE GOVERNMENT" was telling people "NOT" to wear them and would angrily
    ask scientists and health officials in private why — if they don’t help — do doctors wear them?
    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/whi...ponse-n1158746

    I don't have enough data to win a debate but that is another data-point that tells me that this outbreak was engineered...

Page 109 of 116 FirstFirst ... 9596469747984899499104105106107108109110111112113114 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •