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Thread: ☣ Coronavirus ☣

  1. #2076
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    By the way, my one major piece of advice for everyone, if you do get something like this where it feels like something is burrowing around in your lungs, whatever you do, don't watch the movie Prospect, and don't watch the movie Annihilation, and for goodness sake above all don't watch the movie Prospect then Annihilation back to back!! I would have been paranoid watching those movies without my condition, but with it I was full-on

  2. #2077
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Demagogue. I don't know where NeoTokyo is, but don't they have doctors there ? Why do you not go see a doctor ? Your General Practitioner or a specialist in the hospital.

    I think the general rule (in most countries) is: when you get symptoms, stay at home, isolate yourself, and wait till it gets over or it gets more serious. I think you're past that stage now, no ? From what your write, it doesn't look like it's going away by itself. Normally people who get symptoms feel bad for a few days, a week at most, and then recover. If not, I don't think you're supposed to wait. Go see a docter, and keep safe !

  3. #2078
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    The "itching" (all over the body) he's describing is due to the immune system response, maybe to the second exposure to the virus.
    If the immune system doesn't go mad (so no disease in this case) these reactive symptoms will go away in some days.
    If not, go see a physician and go for the blood test and, after that, the test in the throat / nose mucosa!
    Your physician can prescribe a lung x-ray imaging examination too (the Covid-19 pattern is now automatically recognized by the AI too ).

    Remember that both the virus AND the immune system can damage not only the lungs but the heart (and the kidney) too.....so after sometimes:

    1) ECG Holter
    2) Echocardiography

    and you're golden (and in perfect shape I hope!)
    Last edited by lowenz; 10th May 2020 at 13:49.

  4. #2079
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Third grave from left.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    Maybe I'm too pessimistic.
    But I'm not unrealistic.
    Maybe. However, our ability to treat the disease everywhere is constantly improving and US is very late to the game and benefits from that quite a bit. Also, some probably very minor help from crowd immunity for troublespots... example: 1.7%+ of NY (state) has been positively tested for the virus - if untested positives would be 10 times as much then thous numbers get pretty considerable. Now also consider that thous values are for the whole state - numbers within hotspots are even better in regards of slowing the virus down (ie. not enough for actual crowd immunity, but possibly high enough to have a noticeable effect). Also, i think the majority of the actual people of US take this shit seriously. Behavior of the majority will help a lot in keeping the spread rate down even if the federal government is fucking up everything at every step. At least i have some hopes for US. Please, guys, don't fuck it up any more than it already is.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Situation in our little tin-pot country ...

    The general exit strategy plan for the restrictions was publicized April 22 (concerns to deal with / situation tracking ability and metrics) - quite a few restrictions were lifted even before that. So, started to loosen up the restrictions a while ago. One step at a time (One of the most important steps, immho, was passed a few days ago ... just in time - i was about to give myself a haircut. So, that is at least one major disaster averted). It seems that when anything goes wrong then that will take almost a week to be detectable - so far nothing happened (seemingly stable influx of new detected cases in single digits). Obviously, this cannot last - the hope is that it can be kept under workable limits.

    I bet every country in Europe is similarily shitting bricks over this whole situation.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Since the combined country (CC) of Italy+Spain+Germany+France+UK has essentially the same pop count as USA - and thous are the worst per-pop countries of considerable size in Europe - it is good for comparison.

    US/CC stats:
    @ cases: 1.28 from 1.03 (that is 16 days before when US case count first surpassed CC). CC reaches its 1mil case milestone a few days ago.
    @ daily case count has risen to 2.65 (week average) from 2.28 the week before and much less before that - CC case count is falling and US has been mostly constant with minor drop over weeks (both CC and US have strong weekly cycle for both new cases and new deaths).
    @ deaths: 0.65 from 0.53 (16 days before) - which is curious. From what i can see it seems to stem from the initial surprise - Europe fucked up big time (well, to be fair, i intentionally picked countries for CC by the top worst per-pop case count - ie, CC is essentially 5 times NY region). US has had a much better initial state as only NY exploded and the rest had a massive forewarning which slowed things down.
    @ daily deaths has risen to 1.44 (week average) from 1.11 the week before and well below 1.0 before that. While deaths in US have been consistently going down for weeks (ie. don't be fooled by the weekly cycle - the numbers are going down - hoping this week will be another record low), CC is going down much faster and has been doing that for much longer.
    @ tests reached 0.83 (week average) from 0.86 the week before - CC is just doing more testing, but not by much. Also, most of them (CC) only release their testing counts weekly - which is annoying, but averaging helps. Buuuuuut ... see next stat ...
    @ total cases per tests reached 1.56 from 1.32 (10 days before). Ie, doing a shit-ton more testing per cases cumulatively - this also contains considerable amount of antibody testing (For example, Spain has been doing thous for quite some time). So, CC is looking a lot harder and finding a lot less at the same time in comparison to US. One of thous gives hope for maintainable reopening - the other does not seem to be getting anywhere.

    CC numbers have been going down for many weeks - with the sole exception of UK. The daily case count for UK is pretty much a flat line like US. Deaths are similar, but have a small downward incline - matching considerable upward daily testing count trend. The same is visible for US too - but the trend angles are much smaller. Why are US and UK so similar? Would mistake thous two for each other - but death rate is very high for UK. Was the highest in CC by considerable margin (*) and is currently still over twice the US.

    US situation is troubling (flatline when they are "trying" bodes bad for future), but CC is definitely not out of it either - just managed to gain a bit more playing room and ease the situation.

    *) Has been going down for a week or so and about to reach / reached France numbers which are equally horrible.

  5. #2080
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    Demagogue. I don't know where NeoTokyo is, but don't they have doctors there ? Why do you not go see a doctor ? Your General Practitioner or a specialist in the hospital.
    It's the capital of Japan. I've been seeing a cardiologist for 6 weeks now, actually 2 of them. I got the virus 6 weeks ago, so they tell me the virus part should definitely be over with and this is residual issues one has after a big infection that are common. But they're still learning about the virus, so who knows, but it fits what they're saying about nerve weirdness following an infection.

    And to answer lowenz, this isn't a new thing; it's the same symptoms playing out in the same way I've had for 6 weeks now, just in a slightly different form. I already wore the ECG Holter 5 weeks ago and the blood test and Echocardiography 4 weeks ago, and I already know my heart and blood is physically normal, except for a high white blood cell count. I don't know about my lungs yet, although outside of the episodes (itchy or fluttering feeling for a few hours) my breathing is fine.

  6. #2081
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    I'm just glad you are still with us.

  7. #2082
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Uh, doesn't look very safe over there:


  8. #2083
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Quote Originally Posted by demagogue View Post
    It's the capital of Japan. I've been seeing a cardiologist for 6 weeks now, actually 2 of them. I got the virus 6 weeks ago, so they tell me the virus part should definitely be over with and this is residual issues one has after a big infection that are common. But they're still learning about the virus, so who knows, but it fits what they're saying about nerve weirdness following an infection.

    And to answer lowenz, this isn't a new thing; it's the same symptoms playing out in the same way I've had for 6 weeks now, just in a slightly different form. I already wore the ECG Holter 5 weeks ago and the blood test and Echocardiography 4 weeks ago, and I already know my heart and blood is physically normal, except for a high white blood cell count. I don't know about my lungs yet, although outside of the episodes (itchy or fluttering feeling for a few hours) my breathing is fine.
    It's good man! If the infection+immune reaction did not damage the heart (the kidney damage always happens during the acute phase) you're OK
    In my case itching+burning face (red) for 2 days 1 month after the infection (SARS2? What else, but surely I got a viral infection in mid february), maybe due to hyperaemia and immune response all over the body.
    And got some *remarkable* heart rate overshoots too.

    Now, after another month from the last body irregularities, it's all fine.
    Last edited by lowenz; 11th May 2020 at 03:36.

  9. #2084
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Thanks, I'm glad to be here too. I'll be even more glad when all my issues finally stop for good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    Uh, doesn't look very safe over there:
    Akira is actually getting referenced a lot here these days.
    There are places around Tokyo where kids are putting up this sign from the movie:



    It says "147 Days until the opening of the Tokyo Olympics" when of course the apocalypse happened and cancelled it and everything else.
    The graffiti says chushi da, chushi, "it's over, it's over", edit: or as Starker reminds me to be a bit more accurate, "it's cancelled, it's cancelled".
    You can imagine why it's so popular for people to copy these days.
    The movie was pretty close too; Tokyo is the 32nd Olympics and this advertises it as the 30th.
    Last edited by demagogue; 11th May 2020 at 07:24.

  10. #2085
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Yeah, that's funny. "With everyone's help, let's make it a success." Even funnier, though, the graffiti underneath says, "Smash it into pieces" and "Cancel it".

  11. #2086
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by demagogue View Post
    I wish I could talk to people (trained people with medical degrees) that have experience with this whole thing that could give me a little insight about what I should be expecting and doing, because right now I'm just getting fragmented snippets of information and don't know how established they are, nor does it actually give me guidance what I should be doing in my state.
    This is why I wondered if you had actually seen a doctor. Good to hear you did.

    Quote Originally Posted by demagogue View Post
    It's the capital of Japan.
    I heard of Tokyo before. (I watch Sumo). I just didn't know whether NeoTokyo was Tokyo, some other real place, or something made up.

    I've been seeing a cardiologist for 6 weeks now, actually 2 of them. I got the virus 6 weeks ago, so they tell me the virus part should definitely be over with and this is residual issues one has after a big infection that are common.
    I just ran into this article in the NY Times. It seems like (in some cases?) the "debilitating symptoms can last long after a person’s body has gotten rid of the coronavirus". The stories in the article seem anecdotal, but they might be interesting for you to compare.

    Good luck with your recovery.
    Last edited by Gryzemuis; 11th May 2020 at 08:50.

  12. #2087
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Oh that. The thing is even doctors are getting conflicting information and info gets outdated quickly, and in some cases coronavirus is rewriting the treatment playbook compared to comparable other issues. My doctors know the important stuff, so I trust them, but I meant also talking to a doctor that's actually been on the front lines of treating corona cases, since they're learning new things every week and very specific things. But actually that's more about acute cases in the early days, not what I'm going through now, the post-infection part, which I think is still new and evolving even for the specialists working directly on it. So it's okay. (At the time I wrote that, I wasn't 100% sure I was post-infection or even that it was an infection and not something else, so that was part of writing that too.)

    Anyway, I got a big update now this week, and I'm being told right now that what I'm going through now is post-infection nerve issues (putting aside some obscure incredibly rare things and a long list of things they've ruled out now, making coronavirus more & more likely). It's not just coronavirus btw; lots of serious infections, pneumonia in particular (from any causes), have these kinds of after effects that last long after a person gets over the infection itself.
    They just said at this stage to wait it out for now and let's see what's happening in three months. They don't want me going to a hospital until the actual corona cases tail off, just in case it isn't it.
    I still legally can't get tested for the virus or the antibodies.

    I'm being told though that I probably did have pneumonia because I had the hypoxia symptoms and a lung infection that's still messing with my lungs, but I couldn't feel it because of the immuno-suppression. I've read that about that in a few articles too, and it's fucked up, that a person could literally be suffocating from the inside and not actually feel it until they just collapse one day.
    I have a lot of school friends from Texas that are going ape shit over their rights being infringed and demanding the state open up, and they're still thinking about this thing like it's just a nasty case of the flu. And if they went through the month I just went through, that'd put the fear of God into them how messed up scary this thing can be.

    I've read every NYTimes and every other major article on this thing, so I have a pretty good idea of the lay of the land, and where I'm fitting in (and not fitting in so well) with the whole.
    Thanks for the spot of luck. I'll hold on to that one.
    Last edited by demagogue; 11th May 2020 at 09:07.

  13. #2088
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Quote Originally Posted by demagogue View Post
    I'm being told though that I probably did have pneumonia because I had the hypoxia symptoms and a lung infection that's still messing with my lungs, but I couldn't feel it because of the immuno-suppression. I've read that about that in a few articles too, and it's fucked up, that a person could literally be suffocating from the inside and not actually feel it until they just collapse one day.
    Exactly.
    From what we can see the lungs (for several reasons) have no more space for the air so you'are suffocating from the inside. It's why it's NOT enough to ventilate (the lungs mechanically are functioning until the end but the blood doesn't exchange O2 and CO2).

  14. #2089
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    About the blood clotting: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01403-8

    Blood thinners don’t reliably prevent clotting in people with COVID-19, and young people are dying of strokes caused by the blockages in the brain. And many people in hospital have drastically elevated levels of a protein fragment called D-dimer, which is generated when a clot dissolves. High levels of D-dimer appear to be a powerful predictor of mortality in hospitalized patients infected with coronavirus

    Oh the famous "It's only a respiratory disease"

    This is not what you'd expect to see in someone who just has a severe infection,” he says. “This is really very new.” This might help to explain why some people have critically low blood-oxygen readings, and why mechanical ventilation often doesn’t help. It’s a “double hit”, says O’Donnell. Pneumonia clogs the tiny sacs in the lungs with fluid or pus, and microclots restrict oxygenated blood from moving through them.

    So "my" theories are NOT only mine (they never were "mine")

    Why this clotting occurs is still a mystery. One possibility is that SARS-CoV-2 is directly attacking the endothelial cells that line the blood vessels. Endothelial cells harbour the same ACE2 receptor that the virus uses to enter lung cells. And there is evidence that endothelial cells can become infected: researchers from the University Hospital Zurich in Switzerland and Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston, Massachusetts, observed SARS-Cov-2 in endothelial cells inside kidney tissue. In healthy individuals, the blood vessel is “a very smoothly lined pipe”, says Peter Liu, chief scientific officer at the University of Ottawa Heart Institute. The lining actively stops clots from forming. But viral infection can damage these cells, prompting them to churn out proteins that trigger the process.

    The virus’s effects on the immune system could also affect clotting. In some people, COVID-19 prompts immune cells to release a torrent of chemical signals that ramps up inflammation, which is linked to coagulation and clotting through a variety of pathways. And the virus appears to activate the complement system, a defence mechanism that sparks clotting. Laurence’s group found that small, clogged vessels in lung and skin tissue from people with COVID-19 were studded with complement proteins. All these systems — complement, inflammation, coagulation — are interrelated, says Agnes Lee, director of the Hematology Research Program at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada. “In some patients with COVID, all of those systems are kind of in hyperdrive.”


    Of course I can't expect sincere excuses, right?
    Last edited by lowenz; 11th May 2020 at 15:15.

  15. #2090
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    I think you're being a little overdramatic, Lowenz. Yeah, it's true, we've yet to know the full extent and long term effects of coronavirus, but you don't need to breathlessly doom 'n gloom the worst case scenarios here. Step back a bit, and apply some chill.

  16. #2091
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    That's not the problem, the problem was accusing me of "misinformation" and saying things "I can't even understand".
    In fact it's exactly the opposite.

  17. #2092
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    You're a layman trying to understand something that doctors across the world are trying to parse through. You shouldn't be saying "this is what this virus does to people, IT'S TERRIBAD", more "this is what this virus could do to some people. Maybe. Depending on the circumstances. Sometimes. Possibly."

    Different people have different reactions to the same thing. Take me for instance. Millions of people across the world have the DTaP vaccine administered without any ill side effects. Me? I have an allergic reaction to it. Get a massive fever, become sick as a dog. You could run around saying "THIS IS WHAT DTAP COULD DO TO YOU", and technically, it'd be true. Thing is, it only has this effect on 1 out of every 500,000 people or so. It's exceedingly rare. It's something you should be mindful of, just in case, but it isn't something you want to endlessly harp on.

    Plus, there are probably some things you're misinterpreting, or mistaken on. It's not impossible.

    But anyway, chill a bit.

  18. #2093
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    Not only is the article he linked talking about the reasons for this being a mystery, and talks about probable causes instead of outright presenting hypotheses as fact, you're right Renz, the article itself talks about this happening in 20% of critically ill patients, which to begin with is a small fraction of people with the virus.

    Let's not forget that he also ignores when he's wrong and actively contradicts himself - he wasn't bothered about people here reading his hyperbole because he thought we were all outside the critical illness age range; and yet he bolds, italicises, and underlines something that calls out young people dying from strokes. And he wants an apology for that? Screw off.

    It's basically the worst kind of attitude - Dunning-Kruger combined with an ego the size of a planet.
    Last edited by Sulphur; 12th May 2020 at 00:26.

  19. #2094
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: uk
    Quote Originally Posted by zombe View Post
    CC numbers have been going down for many weeks - with the sole exception of UK. The daily case count for UK is pretty much a flat line like US.
    I'm not all that sure you can compare countries in any meaningful way, I'm not even sure you can compare the same country over time as the way they count things changes so much.

    Personally I'm working on the assumption that the NHS's labs are doing the tests for the same set of people they always have been and that their numbers are comparable over time to get some idea of what's actually happening with the spread of the virus. Their daily new cases (England, trend is a lot flatter in Scotland and Wales, couldn't find easily viewable historical data for NI but at 30 new cases a day I wasn't going to look too hard) has been dropping pretty consistently 500 a week from the peak of 4500 in early April and will hit ~0 in two weeks.

    The pretty flat number of new cases is down to massive expansion in testing as "If you can manage at home then stay there, don't go anywhere near a hospital or a doctor" has transitioned to testing a more sensible number as the plan changes from just trying to keep on top of treating the sick to actually wanting to know how bad it is so that we can look at opening stuff back up in June.

    At a glance without bothering to do maths deaths looks like it's trending toward 0 in about 5 weeks but the official deaths stats are by day it was reported so very noisy with respect to time. (NHS's figures for new cases is actually by date of sample, so whilst it takes 4 days to get much of a picture it is a reasonably consistent one)

  20. #2095
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulphur View Post
    It's basically the worst kind of attitude - Dunning-Kruger combined with an ego the size of a planet.
    Getting kind of hilarious now though.

  21. #2096
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulphur View Post
    It's basically the worst kind of attitude - Dunning-Kruger combined with an ego the size of a planet.
    Why are you always talking about yourself?
    Why are you so eager to psychologize others from your "I'm the master debunker, I know how internet works" position?

    Dunning-Kruger effect!
    Dunning-Kruger effect!
    Dunning-Kruger effect!
    Dunning-Kruger effect!

    Trust me, I'm the DEBUNKER hunting the stupid people on the interwebz! Dunning-Kruger effect!

    You really don't realise who the taunting fool is, right?
    Last edited by lowenz; 12th May 2020 at 08:10.

  22. #2097
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    About the infamous "Dunnig Kruger effect"

    https://theethicalskeptic.com/2016/0...kruger-effect/

  23. #2098
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    You're on my ignore list, so good luck with whatever words and links you're throwing around, but I do want to note that you should probably learn how to use the edit button instead of double-posting.

  24. #2099
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    He edited and double-posted.

    In the grand scheme of things, to quote killer robot Joshua, The winning move here is not to play.

  25. #2100
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by lowenz View Post
    That's not the problem, the problem was accusing me of "misinformation" and saying things "I can't even understand". In fact it's exactly the opposite.
    No, the problem is you playing an expert and being unable to let it go after being called out on it by multiple people already.

    Also, try looking at it from the perspective of other people for a moment. You are filling the thread with posts that are, ultimately, only about you. And you're being extremely irritating while you're at it. I mean, I get it -- you have been wronged and you now must do everything to prove yourself right. But nobody else here cares that your ego was hurt.
    Last edited by Starker; 12th May 2020 at 09:17.

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