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Thread: TMA20AC Mission ó The Builder's Paradise (Mar 24, 2020)

  1. #201
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2018
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    john9818a: Karras' doors are opened in this room: https://imgur.com/a/56HpVkQ The levers need to be in the position shown in the screenshot. This room is accessible from the top floor of the throne room, on the 'northern' side.

  2. #202
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    Location: Texas
    Thanks DirkBogan! I edited my post but didn't see yours.

  3. #203
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2009
    Expert, 3 hours 17 minutes, 4156/4771 loot, 7 secrets. I completed the optional objective, but needed 2 hints: for stone and vine. I knew from the first couple rooms that I was going to like this mission. I love maintenance tunnels and industrial basements, and when I entered the facility and heard that ambient track with the low horn melody, I REALLY knew I was going to like this mission. The concept is so memorable and well-executed. Very clean mapping style, very readable with lots of strong lines, and the stylization and mechanisms reminded me of the Myst series at times. Which is appropriate, because there was lots of adventure game-style exploration and puzzle solving. I even liked a certain persistent enemy and thought he added a lot to the atmosphere. But, I'm glad there were plenty of combat supplies, too, for when the player chooses to go that route.

  4. #204
    Member
    Registered: May 2003
    Location: West Seattle
    Quote Originally Posted by john9818a View Post
    Edit: I just finished and this is an excellent mission! I missed most of the secrets though. I especially liked the ostrich bot!
    where was that one?
    I got chased around the museum area by zombie Kernel, and the light-faced spider kept finding me any time I was near the factory - maybe that one had some dog programming?

  5. #205
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2009
    I loaded this mission back up just to run laps around the level for a while. The Nave is a work of art. Most rooms have something cool in them, and even in the simpler rooms, the details are economically placed. The overall aesthetic is so consistent and cohesive. The colors are wonderfully balanced, and it has the overall best use of contrast I've seen in any FM. Just really strong design work. I think when people talk fondly about Rapture in Bioshock or the Von Braun in System Shock 2, part of the appeal is a sense of just wanting to spend time there. Places that, horrible situations aside, you'd like to visit for a bit. That's how I feel about The Builder's Paradise. I'm glad I had the chance to visit.
    Last edited by Wormrat; 13th Apr 2020 at 20:19.

  6. #206
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    Another TMA20AC submission that will surely become an all-time classic! A mission so large I felt a bit overwhelmed at certain points. Every room has something interesting to discover, be it a strange machine, an important item, or the journal of a fallen Mechanist. After cataclysmic events in the City, the living quarters of this Mechanist facility are now badly damaged and the floors are littered with corpses. There was a constant sense of dread as I cautiously made my way through the rooms. Some areas felt reminiscent of the claustrophobic interiors of System Shock 2, sometimes I felt reminded of the horrors lurking in the depths of Lord Alan's Factory.

    Finished on Normal in 3 hours and 40 minutes with 4105 of 4771 loot and 2 of 9 secrets. At one point I got stuck because I had thought it was impossible to get to the throne room without deactivating the turrets first. I ended up using an invisibility potion and ran past them. There probably is another way to get there, but I could not find it.

    Two points of criticism in an otherwise spectacular mission: Why does Karras sound like Professor von Kriplespac in this one? He came off sounding like a cartoon villain. Also, his death in Sabotage at Soulforge was more satisfying. Those seconds in the final cutscene of The Metal Age when his eyes widen as he realizes the Necrotic Mutox is being released in his chamber, that was one of the most memorable endings for a villain I have seen. Contrast this with The Builder's Paradise, in which you only hear him getting attacked by his own creations and later on see him fall down to the floor after he gives a weak final speech.

  7. #207
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2005
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by View Post
    At one point I got stuck because I had thought it was impossible to get to the throne room without deactivating the turrets first. I ended up using an invisibility potion and ran past them. There probably is another way to get there, but I could not find it.[/SPOIL]
    I also did it that way, just with a speed potion strafe running. I thought this was the right way to do it.

  8. #208
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    This mission is astounding!

    General spoiler tags because I cba figuring out what's spoilerific and what's not. Okay, so bad stuff first: this mission feels surprisingly rough and unpolished despite its scope. You should've searched for a better Karras voice actor (all respect to Ceamonks, but his Karras voice is a long way off). The retcon of Thief 2's ending feels clumsy. The writing is often awkward, and the wording sloppy. None of that matters at all though!

    More significant bad stuff: too much reliance on lock-and-key. The main objective depends on the player willingly going into a very threatening room and then staying there after the angels activate, and finding the button (in my case, three hours spent wandering because going in there seemed like a really bad idea). The museum is a bizarre tonal anomaly. Kernel is a terrifying enemy that ends up utterly wasted because you never really get to confront and defeat him (WHY is there no quest to install corrosive water in the "airlock" and trap him in there!?). Finally defeating Karras is underwhelming; doubly so if the other objectives are still left to be done afterwards. All this matter only a little bit.

    The good stuff! My god this mission is incredible! The basement is drab an uninteresting, but doesn't last long until you get to the roof, and then WOW! I get to see with my own eyes what the Builder's Paradise looks like. Orange lighting, orange newsky, large orange dust particle effects used to stunning effect. Jaw dropping. And everything's dead. Everything's silent. It was over 40 minutes (for me) before I encountered the first enemy, and the silence is thoroughly oppressive.

    And then there's a multifaceted use-Karras's-tools-against-him plot that's reminiscent of the first half of Soulforge (the good half). And the people revolting against Karras and holing up that—well yeah, it's System Shock 2 all over again, but transplanted back into Thief's universe—works amazingly well.

    I have a ton of small criticisms that I could levy against this mission, but so what? It has a huge vision, and it's thrown me right in the middle of that with utterly compelling effect. I took a single point off for the "negatives", but that's really just me nitpicking. This mission knocks it out of the park on each and every category: atmosphere, gameplay, story.
    Last edited by vfig; 21st Apr 2020 at 23:03.

  9. #209
    I appear to be the odd man out here...I appreciate the ambition of this mission, but thought it was way too frustrating to be considered entertaining (for me at least). I tried playing on expert and I believe I'm close to the end, I just can't take anymore. I suppose that someday I'll try again at an easier difficulty.

    I just read the note that to find the key for the new memory crystal, I had to find a room that doesn't appear to be on the "mostly" useless map. That was the final straw for me. I think that having the player find a decent map within the mission would have made all the difference. If there was one and I missed it, I apologize.

  10. #210
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2010
    Location: A Former Forest
    Quote Originally Posted by Relayer2112 View Post
    I appear to be the odd man out here...
    Nope, I second that. I will come back to it to try again, but itís not really my cup of tea. Thatís OK though. If others like it, cool. I do think it deserves another chance at play though. I think I will play it on easy from the start and see how it goes.

  11. #211
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by bjack View Post
    Nope, I second that. I will come back to it to try again, but itís not really my cup of tea. Thatís OK though. If others like it, cool. I do think it deserves another chance at play though. I think I will play it on easy from the start and see how it goes.

    I'm with you on this. Great art and architectures, but more of a key hunt mission where you search every millionth of an inch for a way to open the other door. I to may go at it on Easy dif. I was never really a fan of Sabotage at Soulforge,. I have a dif mindset on play of T2. Making puzzles and a mission hard can be entertaining. Reloading a game a billion times, anyone can complete a mission like this.
    There are Times I will re-load a few times or pay dead is dead. How many ppl can play though a mission and never reload?, or even set a goal of 3 re-loads, or only re-load after a bad ladder jump (re-entering ladders also quirky).. This is a very exciting way to play missions you though was too easy. and more like REAL LIFE. It will put fear into your play. I made it though 6 missions of T2 campaign once without dying before I got wacked.HAHA

    I'm giving up on this mission. But thanks for the effort and time given to make any mission.

  12. #212
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2013
    Location: Finland
    First of all, I really like the ambient music/sounds in this mission. Especially the mighty horn ambients! This mission would be mighty and majestic even without all the great ambients, but with them it goes to another level! Then there's that distressing ambient, sounds like breathing, that creates more tension - subconscious reminder that Kernel is out there and coming for you!

    Mission's layout is so complex and I can only guess how much time and effort it required to accomplish all this! This is a very ambitious mission that creates perfectly that feeling of finality - trying to defeat Karras!

  13. #213
    New Member
    Registered: Aug 2019
    Location: Seattle, WA
    I really want to play this mission, as what I've seen of it is impressive and I imagine it to be really good.

    However, so far I just can't. It consistently crashes and force-closes the game at about the 15 minute mark. I've tried every fix I can think of short of reinstalling windows, which I don't see myself doing. I've restarted the computer, played with the audio settings (48 channels, openal off, hardware acceleration off, hardware acceleration on) - still crashes. I've done a completely fresh T2 install with a fresh Newdark 1.27b patch in an unprotected folder - still crashes. It crashes when I'm streaming, and also when I'm not. Consistently, with no error message, around the 15 minute mark. This has happened to me 10-15 times now.

    Again, I'm totally eager to play this FM, but unless anyone has any suggestions for how to get it to stop crashing, I apparently can't.

    Any help would be appreciated.

  14. #214
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2004
    Location: Germany
    Does the game crash after 15 min regardless of where you are? Or could it really be a location that you usually enter after 15 minutes which makes the mission crash? The latter could mean that something happens in that location which causes the game to crash.

  15. #215
    New Member
    Registered: Aug 2019
    Location: Seattle, WA
    Location doesn't matter. I can start the mission and just walk away for 15 minutes and it'll be crashed when I come back.

  16. #216
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    Location: France
    I too have a crash of 1.27b. I played on 1.26 just fine about a week or 2 ago, so this is new. Wonder if it's having issues for anyone else?

  17. #217
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2018
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    I have also just tested, both on T2Fix 1.27b and a manual 1.27 install from the t2_v127.zip (all separate directories, of course). Both crashed after about the same time.

    My clean GOG install, with 1.26, has never had this crash. Multiple people involved with beta-testing used 1.27 without this issue, however. I have no idea what the cause is.

    The only suspicious thing I've found in the monolog before the crash happens is "Sphere (Player (5789) - 0) out of world! (43028c8b c2fd9434 41ab978d) to (43028c8c c2fd9413 41aa3bec) (3f99999a radius)" or bugs to that effect.

    EDIT: If you have this kind of crash, drag and drop Thief2.exe over EnableLAA.exe. They should be in the same folder. This only has to be done once.

    EDIT 2: This EnableLAA 'fix' merely forestalls the issue, for most players affected. The bug is actually a result of memory leak in the AnimatedLens.nut script, as Jax64 and others have now discovered. A corrected script will be forthcoming, pending the author(s) approval.
    Last edited by DirkBogan; 26th Apr 2020 at 05:59.

  18. #218
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: CT, USA
    Playthrough in 4K, which obviously contains ***SPOILERS***

    Part 1:


    Part 2:

  19. #219
    Desperately Dodgy Moderator
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: France
    IMPORTANT: The crash can be avoided if you simply load a save game. So at the start you can simply quicksave + quickload and you should not experience the crash.

  20. #220
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2005
    Location: Planet Earth, mostly Hungary
    Has anybody found all the 9 secrets?
    Dahenjo's playthrough above shows 7, I found 1 more in the staircase with the big sunmasked statue, L window arch, behind gear cross, but the last one must be all too well hidden...

  21. #221
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: CT, USA
    Darn, I jumped up into that opening but missed the coin/secret.

    I think the last one may be here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wrey...outu.be&t=3107
    Why else would that metal wall panel clang when hit w/bj? Before recording I shot or threw every weapon at the projector "target", looked all around for switches but gave up.

  22. #222
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2008
    Location: UK
    I played this epic mission a few times and had to hunt all the secrets down - I think the 9th secret you're missing is the one in the Council Chambers

  23. #223
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2005
    Location: Planet Earth, mostly Hungary
    Quote Originally Posted by Sagittal View Post
    I played this epic mission a few times and had to hunt all the secrets down - I think the 9th secret you're missing is the one in the Council Chambers
    That was it, thank you! It's even nastier than the coin in the hallway with those red window arches.

    BTW, don't you happen to have a lootlist? I'm still missing almost 100, an obsessive person's nightmareÖ

  24. #224
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2008
    Location: UK
    Quote Originally Posted by csamba View Post
    That was it, thank you! It's even nastier than the coin in the hallway with those red window arches.

    BTW, don't you happen to have a lootlist? I'm still missing almost 100, an obsessive person's nightmare…
    Sorry, I can't help, csamba - I don't have a loot list. You've done better than me - I am missing 175 myself .

  25. #225
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: CT, USA
    Thanks Sagittal, I didn't realize the ceiling in there would take a vine arrow!

    That makes 9/9 secrets but still short 75 loot.

    So I guess the projector room is either a red herring or an easter egg to still figure out....

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