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Thread: T2FM - A Tough Night [6 May 2020]

  1. #26
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2018
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Given the feedback thus far (not to mention the fact that you packaged the mission with myriad unused assets), I hope you'll consider submitting future releases for beta-testing, if not these two releases as well. Many of these rough edges could have been easily smoothed out with input from experienced testers.

  2. #27
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Dromed View Post
    This is no harder than finding Cavador in that huge underground mines in the Lost City, full of mechanist patrols. I tought all players had that experience before and finding Raputo in that quarter is not so hard.
    There are few differences between Kidnap and this mission:

    1. In Kidnap we get information that Cavador will start his patrol. In this mission it's only said that Raputo may appear in certain places, but I mistook that as him spawning in these places at the beginning of the mission and staying there forever. There is no info about Raputo walks through city.

    2. In Kidnap we have really detailed Cavador's patrol route. In this mission there are only few places mentioned that he can appear, but city is really big. So it's hard to determine his patrol route.

    3. In Kidnap we have a really good map. In this mission map is barely readable and I only used first page of map, because only this is good. But not good enough for capturing Raputo.

    When I played this mission I mistook Raputo with purple pajama guy from Thieves Lair (that's Raputo's Mansion, isn't it?) and I was confused when objective didn't complete. I was really lucky when I spot real Raputo on random street.

  3. #28
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Yes i have to provide more information about Raputo's route in the story and Cedric message. The map is pretty bad and as you said almost useless. This level needs a new map more detailed and clear. Maybe i have to name that boss guy in Thieves Lair as Reginald so when you KO him you know its not Raputo. Vfig reported there are more AIs that can be confused with Raputo as they are dressed in a fancy manner, maybe i have to rename them too to make things clear. Still you can expect that the guy you carry to be named Raputo as the guy in Kidnap mission was named Cavador I don't understand why u started to carry him if you were not sure that was indeed Raputo.
    Last edited by Master of Dromed; 8th May 2020 at 11:49.

  4. #29
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Dromed View Post
    I don't understand why u started to carry him if you were not sure that was indeed Raputo.
    Because I had no idea that Raputo's name will get displayed when I will carry him. I played a lot of FMs and in a lot of them when I need to carry body of someone, it just displayed as Unconscious Body. And i thought it's the same case here.

  5. #30
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2018
    Location: Germany
    I thought at first that the raputo is in the thief area. I knockout the wrong guy with the destroyed eye xD

  6. #31
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Garrett TMT, if you can, please be kind and post here the link to your video in which you beat this mission as Vfig did. It may provide invaluable feedback for me and help to other not so experienced players in dealing with this mission.

  7. #32
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2011
    i can't find raputo ?

    must i meet cedric before i can find raputo?

  8. #33
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by radogoal View Post
    i can't find raputo ?

    must i meet cedric before i can find raputo?
    Raputo is the guy that looks like Ramirez. Cedric will give you info what places he visits on his patrol route through city, but you can capture Raputo before visiting Cedric.

  9. #34
    Desperately Dodgy Moderator
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: Dragonsreach
    Quote Originally Posted by DirkBogan View Post
    Given the feedback thus far (not to mention the fact that you packaged the mission with myriad unused assets), I hope you'll consider submitting future releases for beta-testing, if not these two releases as well. Many of these rough edges could have been easily smoothed out with input from experienced testers.
    I second this. Both of the missions include some unnecessary files and also the entirety of the DEDx resources, as opposed to only what you are using in each mission. Experienced testers and/or help from the folks in The Editor's Guild can help you trim down the archives (which should each be under 10MB I imagine), and also smooth out most of the gameplay issues and bugs which are being reported.

  10. #35
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2018
    Location: Germany
    Garrett TMT, if you can, please be kind and post here the link to your video in which you beat this mission as Vfig did. It may provide invaluable feedback for me and help to other not so experienced players in dealing with this mission.
    Its in German

  11. #36
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Dromed View Post
    as Garrett TMT said you have the sewers in Opera Quarter at the start of the mission to navigate underwater and safe for the streets patrols. As you noticed, the streets with many lamp posts and a lot of light are not the recommended way to proceed.. still you persisted in trying with that approach.
    I used the canals a little bit, but if you'd like to know more about why I prefer to stay on land: getting in and out of the water is noisy and can alert guards; it's very hard to predict where in a body of water you'll be in light and where you'll be in darkness, which makes swimming less preferable; and several times I could see streetlamps right where the canal ended, at a blind corner of the street, which makes even just swimming there to see around the corner risky, and getting out of the water there even more risky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Dromed View Post
    I think the mission can be done pretty easy on expert with around 5 KOs. But we are people playing Thief for almost 20 years so we cannot assume all the players have the same degree of skill. Still i recommend to you and to all not so experienced Thief players to play this mission at normal mode difficulty for the first time so they can get used with the environment first. To play at expert difficulty without knowing the map is simply madness as this place is very very big and you can end up getting lost. You have to know what guards to knock out as you have a limited amount of KOs. This can't be done at first attempt if you are not very experienced in sneaking or ghosting.
    Obviously playing for the first time I can't know how big the map is nor how many ais I will encounter (which is why the limited KOs is frustrating: I don't know where I can safely "spend" them). I think you'll find a great many players will start any new mission on Expert, because, as you point out, many of us (including me) have over 20 years of experience playing this game, and want the higher challenge. But it is a mistake to assume that players will learn the mission first before choosing Expert difficulty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Dromed View Post
    I wonder.. have you ever played Kidnap mission in Thief 2? This is no harder than finding Cavador in that huge underground mines in the Lost City, full of mechanist patrols.
    I think Galaer has answered this in enough detail already. I will only add that I also understood the note to mean that Raputo would randomly be in one of the places, not that he was on a long patrol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Dromed View Post
    Still you had been incredible unlucky and pass near him a few times, at one moment you panicked and run in circles not paying attention on what's happening near you. Then you supposed the map is bugged or something and maybe there is no Raputo on the map and lost your concentration to the main goal. Again your approach was not optimal, as you simply can wait for him in one place at his mansion, at the tavern or at the mages and eventually he will show up. If you are running in circles on the map you can miss him as happened.
    This is a lot of words to tell me, "You're playing it wrong" — remember that it is part of the job of a mission author to make sure their mission communicates effectively to players. This is the main reason to playtest, even more important than finding bugs: you get players with a wide range of skill and play styles who approach the mission in different ways, and you get to learn where your mission is confusing, or disorienting, or more difficult than you planned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Dromed View Post
    After all i can say your videos were great and very helpful, you discovered a lot of bugs, the compass is wrong placed, the map is pretty bad and unclear, i have to mark Lady Catherine location and other important places in the future updates. The slipping AIs don't fall down instantly after they are KOed in sleep, other AI just run and fall down after a long time after a KO which looks pretty bad and needs a fix.
    The map—apart from the palette bug—is actually pretty close to being really good. Mostly it's just too busy: I suggest getting rid of the arrows everywhere (are some of them are meant to indicate Raputo's patrol route? if so, those might be worth keeping), and making it a little more visible which parts are streets and which are buildings. The AI KO bug (which was very entertaining!) is just because you have the priority set too high; here's a discussion of the same issue that another author encountered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Dromed View Post
    Maybe i have to name that boss guy in Thieves Lair as Reginald so when you KO him you know its not Raputo. Vfig reported there are more AIs that can be confused with Raputo as they are dressed in a fancy manner, maybe i have to rename them too to make things clear. Still you can expect that the guy you carry to be named Raputo as the guy in Kidnap mission was named Cavador I don't understand why u started to carry him if you were not sure that was indeed Raputo.
    For me: I hadn't found any named AIs up until then, so didn't know for sure whether Raputo would be named or not. That's why I tried killing one of them to see if it failed the kidnap objective

  12. #37
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrett TMT View Post
    Its in German
    Even if i'm not a german speaker i'm sure many of the people here on TTLG are. It would be of great help if you posted even if it's in german language.
    Last edited by Master of Dromed; 8th May 2020 at 17:03.

  13. #38
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2018
    Location: Germany
    Even if i'm not a german speaker i'm sure many of the people here on TTLG are. It would be of great help if you posted even if it's in german language.
    ok here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ7N35PGZ04

  14. #39
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by Yandros View Post
    I second this. Both of the missions include some unnecessary files and also the entirety of the DEDx resources, as opposed to only what you are using in each mission. Experienced testers and/or help from the folks in The Editor's Guild can help you trim down the archives (which should each be under 10MB I imagine), and also smooth out most of the gameplay issues and bugs which are being reported.
    Of course Yandros, I would consider submitting these to the editors sections for testing and reviewing. But first i have to fix some urgent problems with the visibility of the maps and some ugly bugs to some AI not falling down after being KO-ed.

  15. #40
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    Location: France
    They're saying you should have done this beforehand, and with experienced testers.

  16. #41
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by Psych0sis View Post
    They're saying you should have done this beforehand, and with experienced testers.
    Unfortunately i'm new in this business of game designing and new here on TTLG forums. I didn't know missions can be tested here, i only have account for 3 months. This mission was finished almost a year ago long before i become a member here. I tested this mission with a few friends and they liked it a lot. I worked alone at this mission with no help available only Komag guide and a few other guides.
    Last edited by Master of Dromed; 9th May 2020 at 06:31.

  17. #42
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2006
    Location: France, Paris
    The maps located in intrface\miss20\old are good. I've renamed them as they are in intrface\miss20\english, then copy-replace them from old to english folder.

  18. #43
    Desperately Dodgy Moderator
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: Dragonsreach
    The map issue is likely caused by this mission being developed using OldDark and thus they are palettized images in .pcx format. All of those issues would be resolved if they were saved as .png files, which NewDark supports for maps. but then also no one could use them in an OldDark install.

  19. #44
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by Yandros View Post
    The map issue is likely caused by this mission being developed using OldDark and thus they are palettized images in .pcx format. All of those issues would be resolved if they were saved as .png files, which NewDark supports for maps. but then also no one could use them in an OldDark install.
    You are right Yandros I already did that last night. In a few days i will release an update with .png files instead of .pcx. Still, as you said, this will only can be played through the New Dark which is ok i think giving the fact almost no one is using Old Dark these days. I will pack the pcx files in a separate folder in the intrface folder/mission20/english so anyone who is still using Old Dark can switch the .png files with .pcx
    Last edited by Master of Dromed; 10th May 2020 at 04:46.

  20. #45
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Dromed View Post
    I worked alone at this mission with no help available only Komag guide and a few other guides.
    Respect! That's Dromed on hard mode. I don't think I'd have got very far when I made my first mission without the help of many people here on ttlg and the vast archives of threads in TEG about how to do things or explaining bugs and pitfalls.

  21. #46
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2007
    Location: Cragscleft, Bedfordshire, Eng.
    Having fun with this one! It's a lot easier since I discovered there's someone tofight my battles for me !

  22. #47
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by frobbin hood View Post
    Having fun with this one! It's a lot easier since I discovered there's someone tofight my battles for me !
    I'm glad you had a nice experience frobbin hood Thank you for you words!

  23. #48
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2007
    Location: Cragscleft, Bedfordshire, Eng.
    Bit stuck now. 3hrs in, and I cant find Raputo. I've been hanging around the Mansion, casino, mages place and tavern but no sign.
    There are a few doors I can't get into - near the Opera House, but I think that's because most folk are in the water!
    Is there a key for the metal door near the Garden?
    And which is Orwell's house?

  24. #49
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by frobbin hood View Post
    Bit stuck now. 3hrs in, and I cant find Raputo. I've been hanging around the Mansion, casino, mages place and tavern but no sign.
    There are a few doors I can't get into - near the Opera House, but I think that's because most folk are in the water!
    Is there a key for the metal door near the Garden?
    And which is Orwell's house?
    Raputo is patrolling between his mansion, tavern, mages place and mages casino(that is near mages place). In that places he pauses for a few minutes then resume patrolling. You can wait for him in one place until he show up or ambush him on the streets. He is patrolling only in his quarter still, not outside.
    Orwell house is in opera quarter, near the garden. I think it's that metal door you said you can't open. There is a guard patrolling from inside the house to the outside. Wait for him until he open the door and enter the house. You can block the door from closing with your body. That metal door has no key so that is the only way you can enter the house.

  25. #50
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2007
    Location: Cragscleft, Bedfordshire, Eng.
    Thanks. I think Raputo is lost! I've been in the tavern for about 20 mins.

    The guard is dead - so I cannot get the mask. I got him (and most of the guards) to chase me to my House - the guards there don't like intruders!
    Last edited by frobbin hood; 12th May 2020 at 06:22.

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