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Thread: T2FM - Into the Dark Forest [6 May2020]

  1. #51
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Location: Ireland/Poland
    I finished this mission a couple of days ago. Overall I enjoyed it, as as I mentioned, I like the forest/cave vibes in general and I like mazes too. This mission has much more interesting architecture than The Tough Night, with some vertical gameplay and rope arrows.
    Still, I'd like to see more individual touches, to make each place more unique, making the exploration more interesting and navigation easier. The mission took me 5 hrs to complete, but 2hrs at least was trying to get out from the forest and caves and then back to caves looking for the Mages hideout, which I missed initially and had to get a hint in this thread.
    I also think you could add a bit more interest to the missions by making objectives more involved, than simply finding certain objects and loot. But that will come with time and experience. I like the ambition that shows from these early works, so I'd be curious to see your next FM.

    On a side note - a funny thing about keepers. I attacked the patrolling one, just for the crack, and as result, the one with sword standing beside the fireplace, attacked the companion opposite him, as if it was him, who harmed the other keeper. They never blamed me. Even when I attacked the archer keepers, they wouldn't have anything against me.
    On another reload, I actually saw the keeper with sword attacking the unarmed one for no reason - I only entered that area of cave to see them fighting from a distance, so I have no idea what triggered that attack.

  2. #52
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by PinkDot View Post
    I finished this mission a couple of days ago. Overall I enjoyed it, as as I mentioned, I like the forest/cave vibes in general and I like mazes too. This mission has much more interesting architecture than The Tough Night, with some vertical gameplay and rope arrows.
    Still, I'd like to see more individual touches, to make each place more unique, making the exploration more interesting and navigation easier. The mission took me 5 hrs to complete, but 2hrs at least was trying to get out from the forest and caves and then back to caves looking for the Mages hideout, which I missed initially and had to get a hint in this thread.
    I also think you could add a bit more interest to the missions by making objectives more involved, than simply finding certain objects and loot. But that will come with time and experience. I like the ambition that shows from these early works, so I'd be curious to see your next FM.

    On a side note - a funny thing about keepers. I attacked the patrolling one, just for the crack, and as result, the one with sword standing beside the fireplace, attacked the companion opposite him, as if it was him, who harmed the other keeper. They never blamed me. Even when I attacked the archer keepers, they wouldn't have anything against me.
    On another reload, I actually saw the keeper with sword attacking the unarmed one for no reason - I only entered that area of cave to see them fighting from a distance, so I have no idea what triggered that attack.
    Thank you for your feedback PinkDot! I can see you had a very similar experience with this mission as vfig and Garret TMT had. They also get lost in forest and caves, particularly in caves and they also had to search for hint on this forum to navigate. I will try to fix the navigation problems players have in my next update for this mission by adding marks, hints in the story, a detailed map, deleting some unnecessary links between areas and making a briefing video.
    I have no idea why that strange keeper behaviour happens, all keepers are set with AI - AI Core - Team: Good. I have to investigate the problem to see why this happens.
    Very funny i looked in dromed and found why, one of the keepers is set in team bad 2 still they cannot see each other most of the time i think because lack of light in that area and not attacking each other. Things look normal most of the time very rarely they see each other and fight I will fix that in the next update.
    Last edited by Master of Dromed; 24th May 2020 at 21:59.

  3. #53
    Member
    Registered: May 2018
    Have finished it on Expert and didnīt enjoy it at all. Itīs awful.
    Too many confusing and redundant ways, rooms look empty and lack interesting design. Especially the Mage Hideout was disappointing.
    Finding loot was also frustrating. At one part the player can softlock himself when not being able to climb out the waterhole in the caves and I had a KO-ed mage drowning in lava, failing the mission.
    Some parts of the mines are showing a fully lit light-gem where it doesnīt make sense.
    With less redundant ways, more interesting design and adding more soundtracks especially to the mages area I might have liked it, but not the way it is.

  4. #54
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Hello Udo! Don't forget this mission takes place in nature. Burricks don't dig tunnels in a logical manner like humans. Also the water will carve stone in the same illogical way. Yes you got lost because it's a maze and yes it's confusing because it was built to be so.

    Yes rooms look empty because they are supposed to look that way, it's wilderness, a huge forest, don't expect marbles and fancy furniture. The mages hideout it's just a hideout in the wild carved in a mountain not a fancy mansion.

    Yes the waterhole in the caves it's hard to climb. I will fix that in the next update. You can still climb it by jumping repeatedly and push forward.

    About the loot... again this is not a mansion or a city where you're supposed to find a lot of loot. There is loot on this map but you have to search for it - around 3200 loot much more than the requirement on the expert difficulty (2200). I build my map in a realistic manner. You played on expert because you wanted a challenge i suppose. Play on normal or hard and the loot objective will be pretty easy.

    About the mage drowning in lava: are you sure that was a fire mage? If he was an earth, air or water mage i think those are supposed to die in lava so it's nothing wrong with that.

    About the lightning - that is happening because in those places are placed brush lights. Still this is happening in the original missions too, they liked to place brush lights on some levels to make the visibility better. It's nothing wrong about that i think.

    It's ok if you don't liked it, probably not your type of mission
    Last edited by Master of Dromed; 26th May 2020 at 14:14.

  5. #55
    Member
    Registered: May 2018
    Burricks don't dig tunnels in a logical manner like humans. Also the water will carve stone in the same illogical way. Yes you got lost because its a maze and yes its confusing because it was built to be so.
    Well, but still it doesnīt make much sense as not everything is Burrick tunnels(or seems to be). Most "factions"(if they can be called that way) are too close to each other to be realistic.

    Yes rooms look empty because they are supposed to look that way, it's wilderness, a huge forest, don't expect marbles and fancy furniture. The mages hideout it's just a hideout in the wild carved in a mountain not a fancy mansion.
    I didnīt expect a fully stuffed mansion like the OM Mage Towers, but itīs not only wilderness. Even then, most walls are lowly textured and you re-used this big tree too much.
    This is just poor level design. Look at other missions to get an idea how even smaller areas can be designed in an interesting way. I know itīs your first mission, so it isnīt supposed to be perfect, but still it looks bland. I mean, look at this(with the Mage Tower ambience it would have been a tad better):
    and this(from "My Favourite Year", thatīs how an well-designed hideout should look like):


    Yes the waterhole in the caves it's hard to climb. I will fix that in the next update. You can still climb it by jumping repeatedly and push forward.
    I didnīt manage to get out, whatever. It seems the mantling is broken at a lot points there.

    About the loot... again this is not a mansion or a city where you're supposed to find a lot of loot. There is loot on this map but you have to search for it - around 3200 loot much more than the requirement on the expert difficulty (2200). I build my map in a realistic manner. You played on expert because you wanted a challenge i suppose. Play on normal or hard and the loot objective will be pretty easy.
    Itīs 2300 needed. Yes, I play Expert, but the challenge I seek is not to search the map for hours. Expert for me means: Interesting additional objectives that motivate the player to go for them, to steal well-guarded loot, more enemies to challenge. There were so many places where I thought they would be a good spot to hide loot like on beams, but nope.

    Motivation is important for me. A well-designed mission motivates me to progress further. To find the loot, the required artifacts, to see more of it. Here it was unfortunately not the case.

    About the mage drowning in lava: are you sure that was a fire mage? If he was an earth, air or water mage i think those are supposed to die in lava so it's nothing wrong with that.
    Yes, it was a Fire Mage, the one who stands in this one pool. I heard him making hurt sounds like "you cannot change my destiny Thief" one time, so somehow he bumped into the laval and got hurt.

    About the lightning - that is happening because in those places are placed brush lights. Still this is happening in the original missions too, they liked to place brush lights on some levels to make the visibility better. It's nothing wrong about that i think.
    For me it is wrong if a mine is lit as broad daylight by just one or two lanterns. Didnīt had this in any OM. Look at the light radius of the lanterns in Cragscleft and Return, thatīs more realistic.

    It's ok if you don't liked it, probably not your type of mission
    Well, I liked Bonehoard and even Trail of Blood, to have some comparison. Itīs not about the type of mission, itīs just that I donīt see that your designing skills are currently the best. Itīs not that I have something against you, but donīt get the impression that your mission holds up a candle against others. There will be always some folks who praise everything, but to get better one should heed criticism more.

  6. #56
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Well Udo you know.. Dromed has limits unfortunately. This mission reached one of the limits - pathfinding database limit, that means i can't add more stuff on the floors and the ground. That explain the almost empty rooms. You also said the "factions" or places like mine, village, caves, mages place are too close to each other.. this is again because of the dromed limits.. to put them further means to build even a bigger mission. Well that is not possible in dromed. This mission already is a giant.
    About the screenshot in "My Favourite Year" i must say i don't like that at all.. those cylinders placed on the ceilings are ugly. "My Favourite Year" is a much smaller mission than this one so the author had more objects and resources at his disposal to add in the rooms. Also i think "My Favourite Year" was built in New Dark i think that has much higher limits. You can't compare those two missions by that standard. Compare my mission with those in the Original Games. Look at Life at the Party - a giant mission - much of the city looks ugly and boxy, that is because they saved resources to build the Mechanist tower. When you build big you can't provide quality on all parts of the mission. Still Life of the Party is a legendary mission despite this.
    I must mention that i build my missions in Old Dark, because i don't like NewDark at all and i will do so forever. So i can't provide the same amount of details and the same graphics than the other authors that use modern engines.

    About the tree.. that's the only big tree in Thief Gold.. sadly.. so i don't have much of a choice.
    About the ambient at the mages hideout - that hideout is open space, don't have doors so it's also an outside area. If i use music that it will cover the birds and outside forest sounds and it will be odd. It's just odd to use music in a forest.. no i will not ever do that.

    About the loot - loot is hard to find in many OMs - i remember when i play The Hunted Cathedral on Expert.. i had to explore the whole mission 3 times to find the loot needed. So i am an author that build his missions by the OM standard. I don't think loot must be easy to find especially on expert. All OM are scarce on loot around 2000 - 3000 loot, on expert loot is hard to find. I don't like some authors that place loot everywhere.. that's not realistic. I will never do that.

    About the fire mage.. this never happened to anyone until now.. maybe it's a bug.. i will look in dromed. You KO him?

    About the lights - the original missions are full of brush lights - if that was OK for them it's OK for me. I will continue to place brush lights on my missions. They are cool, like a light from divinity or Master Builder himself

    I did not change the radius of the lanterns, they are the same as those in the OMs. Probably the extra light is from brush lights on the ceiling as i told you before. If you look at the ceilings in the mines they have holes in them and you can see the sky. That is light from the moon. Many people are complaining that the mines are too dark, that they can't see anything, you are complaining that is too much light.. well different opinions, that's normal.

    About my designing skills - probably are many authors here that are better at this, i'm still new.. that's all i can do for now. Many people liked my missions, also many don't liked them. It's ok to criticise, and yes there's a lot of room for improvement for me i know that. With time let's hope i will get better.
    Last edited by Master of Dromed; 26th May 2020 at 15:46.

  7. #57
    Member
    Registered: May 2018
    Well then, thatīs why I like a well-designed smaller mission better than a big one with not much in it.

    I donīt understand why you limit yourself to OldDark. What is wrong with NewDark? It runs much better on newer systems and also looks better. If you donīt want to use it, ok, thatīs up to you, but then you must live with the limits and that most players are used to ND standards by now.

    IMO My Favourite Year has a good design, but to each his own.

    LOTP was also built during a time when the average PC had a HDD with smaller capacity than todays PCs RAM...so they needed compromises. I still like LOTP, yeah, and for now would pick most OMs over FMs any day.

    IMO ambience would have been a good fit for the Mage part - I donīt see why open space should be an issue there. THC is also an "open" level and has ambience(the "sawing" sound I hate so much).

    Well, of course some of the OMs are challenging when played for the first(or even a couple of more) times, sure. But then I donīt want that kind of frustration in FMs. I donīt mind a challenge even for loot, but it should be rewarding. I also disliked other missions like Feast of Pilgrims because of the annoying loot placement. I donīt expect loot every 2m, but then again too sparse loot on the opposite is also not fun.

    Yes I KOed the mage on the plank over the lava, as you know when reloading everything is placed new, so that seems to be the issue and he somehow bumped into the lava.

    Iīm not talking about light from the holes in the ceiling - I mean the other ones. If itīs brushes, then it doesnīt seem to be right to me.

    So, even if you donīt want to, NewDark would definitely help. Iīm not really a fan of missions that are that "oldschool". Itīs not that the age is a problem. Look e.g. at the mission "Order of the Vine" from 2000, it still looks great today.

  8. #58
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    He he I hate small missions.. I mean look at the OMs.. all are big or at least medium size. I don't like to wander for 2 hours on 3 streets or in a few rooms. I will never build small that's for sure. Of course if you build small you can provide insane graphics.. but that's noob-ish. The secret is to build big and provide good graphics.. I mean look at The Bank in Thief2 or Cathedral of Soulforge. My goal is to be as good as that. Those missions were built in Old Dark. You don't need more than Old Dark to build legendary missions.
    I don't like New Dark because of the way that shadows are cast.. shadows are not shadows anymore, you can see in the dark. I'm definitely an oldschool author, i like the dark feeling of Thief Gold and i try to bring back to life that feeling in my missions. "Into the Dark Forest" was built and tested in the Old Dark, many of the poor graphics were hidden in the shadows and the player can't see them. Try playing this in Old Dark to see the full atmosphere and felling of this mission. In New Dark you can see details in the shadow and the graphics look poor. You can't create the atmosphere of Thief Gold in New Dark.
    About the loot placement - this mission is meant to be part of a campaign of 14 missions, i designed this for replayability, this is not a mission that you play one time (probably at expert mode as all of you do) and forget about it, you play this for years and discover something new every time. If you play this 50 times as you probably did with Down in the Bonehoard and Trail of Blood the maze will not be a problem because you already know how to move around. Remember all the OM have walkthroughs and many of us needed hint to finish them. So yes if you play my mission for the first time this is frustrating but this also happened when you play Down in the Bonehoard for the fist time and other OMs. I remember i spent 3 hours and a half to finish the Bonehoard for the first time and finding the Horn in that labyrinth was incredible hard. Yes they are some markings on the walls in some places but many caves and tunnel are not marked if you get lost you move in circles for hours. In the tombs part no hint in finding the horn only the sound which is a poor indication because there are many levels and cylinders. Map is poor and almost useless. Loot is hard to find and well hidden. On expert is a real challenge.

  9. #59
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Dromed View Post
    About the loot - loot is hard to find in many OMs - i remember when i play The Hunted Cathedral on Expert.. i had to explore the whole mission 3 times to find the loot needed. So i am an author that build his missions by the OM standard. I don't think loot must be easy to find especially on expert. All OM are scarce on loot around 2000 - 3000 loot, on expert loot is hard to find. I don't like some authors that place loot everywhere.. that's not realistic. I will never do that.
    You refer a lot to LGS work. But I disagree with you, loot in this mission isn't scarce in the same way. First of all, this mission is 3 times bigger than any OM created by LGS. Outskirts and mine could be Mission 1, forest + Mechanist Compound (which is much bigger than I initially thought) could be Mission 2, caves + Mages Hideout could be Mission 3. Each of these areas could have 2000-3000 loot, which means your mission should have 6000-9000 loot.

    Second thing is that you prefer to use big value loot. Purses worth 100, diamonds worth 100, nuggets worth 50 or 100. There is very little low valued items. LGS doesn't design that way. They prefer to use low valued loot. Few coins here, few coin stacks there, 2 bags of spices worth 40 each in kitchen, dining table with 2 candlesticks worth 50 each and couple of plates worth 15 each. Near fireplace there is bottle of fine wine together with 2 goblets (worth together 80). If you are more observant you may notice barely visible fire poker worth 100. That's right. More valued loot is rare or better hidden than other less valued loot.

    Question is why LGS is doing that? I can only talk about myself here, but I prefer to collect more loot pieces at once than just 1. For example: which is better 10 golden coin stacks worth 12 each or tapestry worth 150? Obvious choice would be tapestry, because it's worth more. But gathering 10 coin stacks is just more exciting. I remember how much fun I had from gathering all money stored in old kitchen in Undercover mission.

    There are points where LGS don't put any loot. There are places where LGS wants to create atmosphere. For example - 1st level of mine leading to Cragscleft Prison has no loot. It's done, so player will feel this place. In your mission there is too many places without any loot for no reason. I remember when exploring Mages Hideout I found, I think it was, candlestick on table. I was very surprised. I searched 20 or 30 rooms before and none of them had any loot. I was 100% sure that Mages Hideout has no loot at all.

    If you want to have this 2000-3000 loot, but few times more loot pieces than now, there is another way. In other words - you can lower value of loot pieces. For example: guard that was only drinking may have purse worth only 5, other guard was sleeping on duty, so he got purse worth 25, etc. You can experiment with that. I know that few FM creators did that and their missions are still really fun.

    And yes, I played Haunted Cathedral. It was very confusing and dark mission with a lot of monsters and very well hidden loot. I also need to explore this place few times just to complete loot objective. That was a nightmare, but still Haunted Cathedral is few times smaller than your mission. In your mission there is a lot more walking. So searching for loot is more troublesome.

    If I would be ghosting this mission, I would spent only 10 min in this huge mine you built. Gather all the loot and complete objective in flooded part and skip most of the mine. Because there is barely anything to do there.

    I agree about softlock in water hole. When you fall into water, there is no way out. At least I couldn't get out. Luckily I predicted that and did back up save. Loot above this water hole was the hardest challenge in this mission. I wasted 20 min in order to jump on rope arrow, because most of the time I was bouncing away. And then mantling on this island, which most of the time fails. And of course return, which is pretty much the same thing, but done in opposite direction.

    And don't mistake anything. It was just discussion about loot in your mission. Despite problems with it I still had a lot of fun. Hint for others: good idea when dealing with confusing missions is to always go in 1 direction. Path must end at some time or it will connect to some other place you visited. Going back and forth to check where every path goes isn't good idea, you will just get more and more confused.

  10. #60
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by Galaer View Post
    You refer a lot to LGS work. But I disagree with you, loot in this mission isn't scarce in the same way. First of all, this mission is 3 times bigger than any OM created by LGS. Outskirts and mine could be Mission 1, forest + Mechanist Compound (which is much bigger than I initially thought) could be Mission 2, caves + Mages Hideout could be Mission 3. Each of these areas could have 2000-3000 loot, which means your mission should have 6000-9000 loot.

    Second thing is that you prefer to use big value loot. Purses worth 100, diamonds worth 100, nuggets worth 50 or 100. There is very little low valued items. LGS doesn't design that way. They prefer to use low valued loot. Few coins here, few coin stacks there, 2 bags of spices worth 40 each in kitchen, dining table with 2 candlesticks worth 50 each and couple of plates worth 15 each. Near fireplace there is bottle of fine wine together with 2 goblets (worth together 80). If you are more observant you may notice barely visible fire poker worth 100. That's right. More valued loot is rare or better hidden than other less valued loot.

    Question is why LGS is doing that? I can only talk about myself here, but I prefer to collect more loot pieces at once than just 1. For example: which is better 10 golden coin stacks worth 12 each or tapestry worth 150? Obvious choice would be tapestry, because it's worth more. But gathering 10 coin stacks is just more exciting. I remember how much fun I had from gathering all money stored in old kitchen in Undercover mission.

    There are points where LGS don't put any loot. There are places where LGS wants to create atmosphere. For example - 1st level of mine leading to Cragscleft Prison has no loot. It's done, so player will feel this place. In your mission there is too many places without any loot for no reason. I remember when exploring Mages Hideout I found, I think it was, candlestick on table. I was very surprised. I searched 20 or 30 rooms before and none of them had any loot. I was 100% sure that Mages Hideout has no loot at all.

    If you want to have this 2000-3000 loot, but few times more loot pieces than now, there is another way. In other words - you can lower value of loot pieces. For example: guard that was only drinking may have purse worth only 5, other guard was sleeping on duty, so he got purse worth 25, etc. You can experiment with that. I know that few FM creators did that and their missions are still really fun.

    And yes, I played Haunted Cathedral. It was very confusing and dark mission with a lot of monsters and very well hidden loot. I also need to explore this place few times just to complete loot objective. That was a nightmare, but still Haunted Cathedral is few times smaller than your mission. In your mission there is a lot more walking. So searching for loot is more troublesome.

    If I would be ghosting this mission, I would spent only 10 min in this huge mine you built. Gather all the loot and complete objective in flooded part and skip most of the mine. Because there is barely anything to do there.

    I agree about softlock in water hole. When you fall into water, there is no way out. At least I couldn't get out. Luckily I predicted that and did back up save. Loot above this water hole was the hardest challenge in this mission. I wasted 20 min in order to jump on rope arrow, because most of the time I was bouncing away. And then mantling on this island, which most of the time fails. And of course return, which is pretty much the same thing, but done in opposite direction.

    And don't mistake anything. It was just discussion about loot in your mission. Despite problems with it I still had a lot of fun. Hint for others: good idea when dealing with confusing missions is to always go in 1 direction. Path must end at some time or it will connect to some other place you visited. Going back and forth to check where every path goes isn't good idea, you will just get more and more confused.
    Good suggestion about the loot Galaer! Indeed i was using few loot pieces with high values.
    As you mentioned this mission has issues but it's not unplayable as Udo has stated here seeing this as crap.

  11. #61
    Member
    Registered: May 2018
    I hate small missions.. I mean look at the OMs.. all are big or at least medium size. I don't like to wander for 2 hours on 3 streets or in a few rooms. I will never build small that's for sure. Of course if you build small you can provide insane graphics.. but that's noob-ish. The secret is to build big and provide good graphics.. I mean look at The Bank in Thief2 or Cathedral of Soulforge. My goal is to be as good as that. Those missions were built in Old Dark. You don't need more than Old Dark to build legendary missions.
    I would pick a small to medium-size mission with well-placed content over a big and empty mission every day. And to reach the level of building something like Bank or Cathedral I see you are still on a looong way...especially with such bold statements. Itīs not the tool that is important, yes, but it can be presumed that NewDark would have been used if it would have been around during LGS times.

    Try playing this in Old Dark to see the full atmosphere and felling of this mission. In New Dark you can see details in the shadow and the graphics look poor. You can't create the atmosphere of Thief Gold in New Dark.
    I highly doubt that you canīt create good atmosphere in NewDark. After all, what is important for the atmosphere is the mixture of the design, the soundtrack and the story. It doesnīt matter if it is in OD or ND, Thief is Thief because the way it was designed and not because of the engine. Itīs not that ND is something like the Unreal Engine which would of course give it a different feeling, ND is the same enging with some improvements.

    And quite certainly I will not replay in OD...neither see I much replay value in it nor that itīs worth the effort. Itīs not that we talk about something like T2X which I view worth of replaying(just in an imaginary scenario that it wouldnīt work in ND - which is not the case).

    About the loot placement - this mission is meant to be part of a campaign of 14 missions, i designed this for replayability, this is not a mission that you play one time (probably at expert mode as all of you do) and forget about it, you play this for years and discover something new every time. If you play this 50 times as you probably did with Down in the Bonehoard and Trail of Blood the maze will not be a problem because you already know how to move around.
    It seems you have too high expectations how players like your missions. Like said, not all missions have a replay value. I replayed the OMs a lot, and there are some I would replay more than others, but for fan content itīs not the same. The bar for fan contest is set rather high, there are many outstanding missions, and considering time I donīt see anyone replaying your mission 50 times or even remembering it for years.

    And no, this is not like Bonehoard. Bonehoard is kind of a maze, but in a logical way. Trail of Blood is rather linear...not really a maze.

    I remember i spent 3 hours and a half to finish the Bonehoard for the first time and finding the Horn in that labyrinth was incredible hard. Yes they are some markings on the walls in some places but many caves and tunnel are not marked if you get lost you move in circles for hours. In the tombs part no hint in finding the horn only the sound which is a poor indication because there are many levels and cylinders. Map is poor and almost useless. Loot is hard to find and well hidden. On expert is a real challenge.
    3 hours for Bonehoard? Ok, whatever. I donīt view Bonehoard as that confusing. Yes, it can be when played first-time, but itīs not that convoluted. Also considering that the first playthrough might be on Normal itīs really easy-peasy - the Horn is audible from afar and you donīt even have to bother to go back when picking it up.
    The map in the original games was always mostly not really useful - itīs just for hints, not to guide you completely. Itīs of course more challenging than a modern game with automap and quest marker, but OTOH thatīs something I like about Thief. Which of course doesnīt mean a level should be overconfusing.

  12. #62
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by Udo View Post
    I would pick a small to medium-size mission with well-placed content over a big and empty mission every day. And to reach the level of building something like Bank or Cathedral I see you are still on a looong way...especially with such bold statements. Itīs not the tool that is important, yes, but it can be presumed that NewDark would have been used if it would have been around during LGS times.



    I highly doubt that you canīt create good atmosphere in NewDark. After all, what is important for the atmosphere is the mixture of the design, the soundtrack and the story. It doesnīt matter if it is in OD or ND, Thief is Thief because the way it was designed and not because of the engine. Itīs not that ND is something like the Unreal Engine which would of course give it a different feeling, ND is the same enging with some improvements.

    And quite certainly I will not replay in OD...neither see I much replay value in it nor that itīs worth the effort. Itīs not that we talk about something like T2X which I view worth of replaying(just in an imaginary scenario that it wouldnīt work in ND - which is not the case).



    It seems you have too high expectations how players like your missions. Like said, not all missions have a replay value. I replayed the OMs a lot, and there are some I would replay more than others, but for fan content itīs not the same. The bar for fan contest is set rather high, there are many outstanding missions, and considering time I donīt see anyone replaying your mission 50 times or even remembering it for years.

    And no, this is not like Bonehoard. Bonehoard is kind of a maze, but in a logical way. Trail of Blood is rather linear...not really a maze.



    3 hours for Bonehoard? Ok, whatever. I donīt view Bonehoard as that confusing. Yes, it can be when played first-time, but itīs not that convoluted. Also considering that the first playthrough might be on Normal itīs really easy-peasy - the Horn is audible from afar and you donīt even have to bother to go back when picking it up.
    The map in the original games was always mostly not really useful - itīs just for hints, not to guide you completely. Itīs of course more challenging than a modern game with automap and quest marker, but OTOH thatīs something I like about Thief. Which of course doesnīt mean a level should be overconfusing.
    I think you're trying to force people to think like you. I'm a different person, i prefer bigger and empty missions like Thieves Guild. People are free here to build what they like, don't try to force them to build your way. I don't know why you said i can't build levels as good as Bank or Soulforge, you don't know me at all. Be assured i can if i will. Also how do you know people will not replay my missions? Just because you don't like them that doesn't mean others will think like you. Maybe they will like them a lot. You try to demotivate people or something?
    Last edited by Master of Dromed; 27th May 2020 at 23:40.

  13. #63
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Master of Dromed I get the feeling your being too defensive but that's understandable as your new to the forum and have obviously spent a lot of time on these missions

    I've played both of your missions and Into the Dark Forest is very much better than A Tough Night but both Udo and Galaer haven't made any comments I would disagree with. My thoughts when playing both missions were on the lines of 'OMG am I going to come across anything of interest' and the answer sadly was no.

    You say that you prefer big missions which is fine, so do I, but big missions that are void of anything worth looking at, anything of interest worth exploring or without a plot and design that propels players into wanting to explore further is both going to leading to frustration and comments on the forum that are unlikely to be received well by the author. I didn't finish either mission in the end because all I came across was another similar looking street or tunnels, yes I completed a couple of objectives on both occasions but was not inclined to spend any more time getting frustrated in such bland looking tunnels and streets. I certainly have no desire to play either mission again (less alone 50 times) just to see if I may have missed something previously.

    Your argument that LGS made maps with barely furnished rooms and thus is how a fan mission should be is not well received nowadays, it is almost universally accepted that the lack of furnishing in the OM's was the weakest design issue of Thief and few author nowadays follow that design choice, and when they do they almost invariably receive the same level of criticism as your missions have, so don't take those comments personally, it's just that 20 years of progress means modern players expect a lot more.

    I recently played Sceptre of Dor Am'al IMHO one of the most under rated missions which is a master class in great design, superior lighting, clever ideas and a great plot. Starting off on a ship you need to find your way through some really good looking caves and tunnels, explore a medium sized town which is far from box shaped, then head off to an abandoned prison. Everything about the mission is top class the tunnels especially which even has a railway track, and not once do you feel like putting it aside and trying another mission and yes this was made in Olddark.

    Trust me your not the first author who has released a mission before it was fully ready, a common error by new authors who are keen to present their work the wider community, but as suggested earlier beta testing both missions with experienced testers would told you what works and what doesn't. Beta testing isn't just about finding bugs, it's about letting the author know what the testers like, what they don't like, whether a room is aesthetically pleasing or not, whether you can mantle out of the water or not, if not lets put a ladder there, guard placement and AI pathfinding, misaligned textures etc, it goes on and on and can take many weeks, but in the end a well tested mission is usually a well received mission.

    But do not let any criticism of these 2 missions put you off from releasing the 3rd instalment, just take on board what players like and don't like, accept all comments, both harsh and friendly, and we'll make you a very much better author than you can possibly imagine atm.

  14. #64
    Member
    Registered: May 2018
    I think you're trying to force people to think like you. I'm a different person, i prefer bigger and empty missions like Thieves Guild. People are free here to build what they like, don't try to force them to build your way.
    LOL. What you read from just an opinion about your mission is hilarous.
    Itīs not that I expect anyone to build only missions that are to my taste.

    But then Thieves Guild is a bad example. I donīt know many people who like it. Iīm not that fond of that level, but then again I made my peace with it. But even Thieves Guild is better than yours. I just checked a video of "A tough night" and it seems just like Guild with missing tapestry.

    I don't know why you said i can't build levels as good as Bank or Soulforge, you don't know me at all. Be assured i can if i will.
    Well, then just do it, but it seems you prefer to bicker here or on other sites. Action speaks louder than words. So, where are your promised awesome missions then? I donīt mind if you would release them.

    Maybe you should your sights lower in the current stage. If someone calls himself "Master" of something not only me expects awesome work from him. Currently the name seems more to be ironic .
    Itīs like I would call myself "Master of Thief speedrunning" and would post a 2 hour long normal run of TDP and would attack everyone who says itīs bad. So, I wouldnīt do it.

    Also how do you know people will not replay my missions? Just because you don't like them that doesn't mean others will think like you.
    Well, of course just my opinion, but being a Thief player since TDP I just might presume which missions have more replay value than others.
    Aside that, itīs not that you have made yourself a name like GORT or other better-known FM makers. Maybe you should do that first - and then weīll see.

    You try to demotivate people or something?
    I just state my opinion and if you take it, agree/disagree or be offended is up to you. Why should I care. In the end, you release your work into public, so I donīt see why you just expect flattering reviews.
    But yeah, in the current situation IMHO it wouldnīt be any loss if you would stop making FMs. Just because you canīt handle criticism.

  15. #65
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Sheffield, UK
    I'm getting a weird error when loading a savegame

    If I save just before dealing with the last burrick before the mages area & the stone elemental it's fine, once that last burrick is dealt with then I can't save & reload

    I tried ironmanning from there but my weapons started acting screwy I'd try shooting a water arrow & I shot a cheese wedge, then the weapons stopped working altogether I didn't even get the animations

    I'm sorry but I'm using newdark, olddark is not an option, any suggestions are welcome

    --EDIT--

    I have a savegame from just before this starts happening & one from immediately after, first one loads second one doesn't, if that's any help
    Last edited by Esme; 29th May 2020 at 16:52.

  16. #66
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by Esme View Post
    I'm getting a weird error when loading a savegame

    If I save just before dealing with the last burrick before the mages area & the stone elemental it's fine, once that last burrick is dealt with then I can't save & reload

    I tried ironmanning from there but my weapons started acting screwy I'd try shooting a water arrow & I shot a cheese wedge, then the weapons stopped working altogether I didn't even get the animations

    I'm sorry but I'm using newdark, olddark is not an option, any suggestions are welcome

    --EDIT--

    I have a savegame from just before this starts happening & one from immediately after, first one loads second one doesn't, if that's any help
    That never happened to anyone until now, so strange, i have no idea what can cause this. It's not because the NewDark this works fine in NewDark, except the map. Maybe something related to your Thief installation? Maybe is anyone here who knows something about this weird error.

  17. #67
    Desperately Dodgy Moderator
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: France
    Everyone, I see that things have gotten a little tense in this thread the last few days. I'd just like to remind folks in general to be civil especially when presenting criticism. I don't see anything egregious going on, aside from a poke at the author's user name, which was out of line - just a reminder to keep it positive. And I'm not at all saying to refrain from criticism, just do it the right way.

  18. #68
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Sheffield, UK
    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Dromed View Post
    That never happened to anyone until now, so strange, i have no idea what can cause this. It's not because the NewDark this works fine in NewDark, except the map. Maybe something related to your Thief installation? Maybe is anyone here who knows something about this weird error.
    OK I loaded the good save with dromed, went into game mode, took 10 steps & dealt with the last burrick & went back to the editor

    The mono window was full of the following messages endlessly repeated

    A Prisoner4X (1597) in bad cret pos: -787.49817,-657.422,305.86316 rad: 0.69999999 0.84000003
    A Prisoner2X (1667) in bad cret pos: -792.88245,-538.61359,275.87094 rad: 0.69999999 0.84000003
    & there was a popup for "Assertion Failed" saying "Index -32768 out of range (File: dynarray.h, Line:384) (Yes to trap, No to Exit, Cancel to ignore)"

    Is that any help ?

  19. #69
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by Esme View Post
    OK I loaded the good save with dromed, went into game mode, took 10 steps & dealt with the last burrick & went back to the editor

    The mono window was full of the following messages endlessly repeated



    & there was a popup for "Assertion Failed" saying "Index -32768 out of range (File: dynarray.h, Line:384) (Yes to trap, No to Exit, Cancel to ignore)"

    Is that any help ?
    No.. i can't figure out why this is happening only to you, almost all players played this in New Dark, no one reported that until now. If you don't kill the burrick, just snick past him maybe you can continue the mission in normal circumstances? If you have an older save maybe you can try resuming from there?

    --EDIT--
    Went in Dromed (Old Dark) followed the path to the burricks cave, killed all burricks.. everything worked fine after. Opened monolog - no error.
    Also played this in New Dark, killed all burricks - no error.
    Last edited by Master of Dromed; 1st Jun 2020 at 13:47.

  20. #70
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Sheffield, UK
    It may be something to do with me being on Linux & running with wine, played pretty much everything else without complaint though, maybe the dl was corrupted somehow

    Bit of a shame as I was enjoying it too, I'll put it on the back burner for now

    Thanks for having a look

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