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Thread: Cheating combo stun

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2012
    Location: Moscow, Russia

    Cheating combo stun

    Is it possible to implement a delay for using blackjack after stunning to exclude cheating combo stun?

  2. #2
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2006
    Location: On the tip of your tongue.
    Probably not without changing the motions.

    I wonder if you could change the blackjack to use sword motions, and you can only knock someone out with an overhead swing.

    Problem is, any change like that to the game's basic mechanics is likely to be frustrating for players who are expecting things to work a certain way.

    I did put a few tweaks into Violent End - it's now much harder to knock out an alerted AI, but I scaled back my changes a lot after beta testing.

    On the whole, I wouldn't worry about it. If people want to cheat, that's on them.

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Location: Ireland/Poland
    What is a combo stun?

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: May 2017
    Location: USA
    You can use a flashbomb to blackjack guards regardless of their alert status. Suppose 3 or 4 guards are attacking you all at once— throw a flashbomb and dispatch them all in short order. Easy peasy.

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    That's not cheating, that's by design!

    If you don't want the player to be able knock out a bunch of guards at once while they're all stunned, then replace flashbombs with a different item that only stuns a single guard at a time. Don't try to weirdly nerf the stock tools so they work in confusingly different ways.

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Location: Ireland/Poland
    You can use a flashbomb to blackjack guards regardless of their alert status. Suppose 3 or 4 guards are attacking you all at once— throw a flashbomb and dispatch them all in short order. Easy peasy.
    Sounds like the correct use of the flashbombs to me - I have never seen this as a cheat. Having said that, I don't think I have ever BJed a group of guards this way - max 2, so I never over used it.

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: May 2017
    Location: USA
    Yeah, I agree- not a cheat. But [I assume] that's the mechanic Soul Tear is concerned with.

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by vfig View Post
    If you don't want the player to be able knock out a bunch of guards at once while they're all stunned, then replace flashbombs with a different item that only stuns a single guard at a time.
    Probably worth noting that NewDark 1.27 added the AI.Stun() script functions to Thief, so making objects that can stun single AIs is much more straightforward now. A squirrel script that converts a stim to a flashbomb-like stun effect is only a couple of lines (which I'd be happy to provide).

    Coming back to Soul Tear's original question:
    Quote Originally Posted by Soul Tear View Post
    Is it possible to implement a delay for using blackjack after stunning to exclude cheating combo stun?
    You could achieve this with a bunch of S&R chaining I think:
    • LightBright receptron: for two seconds, add a new receptron on self for Knockout
    • new Knockout receptron: add source on self for OnlyOneCheapKO stim, radial, firing once. And don't cancel the stim, so this first AI still gets KO'd.
    • OnlyOneCheapKO receptron: disable knockouts on self for two seconds.


    This way, the first guard in the flashed group to get KO'd will cause the other nearby flashed guards to become invulnerable to KO for two seconds. You'll need a bunch of metaprops to make this work. And off the top of my head, I forget how to make a metaprop that removes itself after a short time, but I know it's been done before; at the very least some more S&R could do it.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2012
    Location: Moscow, Russia
    It’s not only flash bombs that saddens me, but also the opportunity to knock out several guards from behind standing next to each other, or following one another.
    If I’m not mistaken, in Thief Gold if you knock out one of the two guards, then the other immediately reveals the player. Maybe it was a bug. In Thief 2 these guys seem to be mentally retarded.

    Quote Originally Posted by vfig View Post
    Probably worth noting that NewDark 1.27 added the AI.Stun() script functions to Thief, so making objects that can stun single AIs is much more straightforward now. A squirrel script that converts a stim to a flashbomb-like stun effect is only a couple of lines (which I'd be happy to provide).
    Thanks for clarifying. I would really appreciate it if you could help with the script. There are many places in my new missions where two guards protect the passage. I would like to exclude the possibility of using the "native features" of the Dark Engine. The player must build a strategy, buy / look for equipment, distract enemies, but do not expect to lure ten dudes into one corner, neutralize them in a couple of seconds, and then be happy to run around on an empty level.
    I would like to think of introducing more flexible mechanics into the gameplay. Last time I acted more rigidly, adding to the level many NoKO guys. This was not a problem if the player had a sufficient supply of gas arrows. But some players did not know what they needed to buy.

    Unfortunately, I have never used a squirrel - what should I do with it? Do I just need to install it as a gen, convict, and others in my fm, and then add a script to each guard?

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2006
    Location: On the tip of your tongue.
    One of the things I tried was making the Blackjack knockout noise slightly suspicious, so you get level one alerts when knocking someone out near another AI.

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by Soul Tear View Post
    Unfortunately, I have never used a squirrel - what should I do with it? Do I just need to install it as a gen, convict, and others in my fm, and then add a script to each guard?
    You don't need to include squirrel.osm in your fm, it's included with newdark (although I don't understand why people tend to include convict.osm and gen.osm in their mission zips either, since they're already in the game install??)

    1. script_load squirrel (just as you would for any other .osm)
    2. Create a subfolder called sq_scripts in your fm's folder.
    3. Using notepad or any other text editor, paste the script below into a new file; save it in the sq_scripts folder and call it stimstun.nut.
    4. Add to your guards or their archetypes a receptron for WaterStim, with: No Min, No Max, Effect: Send to Scripts.
    5. Add to your guards or their archetypes the script StimStun
    6. Enter game mode and stimulate those guards with a water arrow...
    7. Edit the script as per its comments to change the stim type.


    Code:
    // Stuns this AI when hit with a stim.
    // Requires NewDark v1.27 or higher.
    //
    // This uses WaterStim as an example. To use a different stim, edit
    // this and rename OnWaterStimStimulus to e.g. "OnMyStimNameStimulus";
    // the "On" prefix and "Stimulus" suffix must remain unchanged.
    //
    // To use:
    //
    // 1. Add a receptron for WaterStim to the AI (or archetype), with:
    //      No Min, No Max, Effect: Send to Scripts.
    //
    // 2. Add the StimStun script to the AI (or archetype).
    //
    class StimStun extends SqRootScript
    {
        function OnBeginScript() {
            // Version check: complain if on an old version of NewDark.
            if (GetAPIVersion() < 11) {
                DarkUI.TextMessage("ERROR: NewDark 1.27 required for StimStun!");
                Object.Destroy(self);
            }
        }
    
        function OnWaterStimStimulus() {
            DoStun(message().intensity);
        }
    
        function DoStun(intensity) {
            if (intensity >= 0.2) {
                // This will have no effect at intensities below 0.2,
                // and at higher intensities will stun the AI for between
                // 4 and 12 seconds (the latter at intensity 4.0+). This
                // mimics exactly the flashbomb intensity-to-stun-duration
                // calculation.
                if (intensity > 4.0) {
                    intensity = 4.0;
                }
                local stunDuration = 4.0 + (2.0 * intensity);
                // Initially, play a motion with these tags (or if null,
                // just use the loop motion tags for the whole stun duration).
                local startMotionTags = null;
                // Then, play motions with these tags continually until the
                // stun duration has elapsed.
                local loopMotionTags = "Blinded 0, Stalled 0";
                // Now do it:
                AI.Stun(self, startMotionTags, loopMotionTags, stunDuration);
            }
        }
    }

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2015
    Location: Hungary
    Quote Originally Posted by Soul Tear View Post
    It’s not only flash bombs that saddens me, but also the opportunity to knock out several guards from behind standing next to each other, or following one another.
    If I’m not mistaken, in Thief Gold if you knock out one of the two guards, then the other immediately reveals the player. Maybe it was a bug. In Thief 2 these guys seem to be mentally retarded.
    It happens in certain T2 OMs. Most notably in Kidnap, on expert. The first KO makes the others mad if they're very close, like walking in groups of 2-3 (such as knocking out Cavador). I've seen the same in quite some FMs, it's probably something related to alertness, but I've never checked it in dromed to be honest.

    (Of course most of the time it doesn't apply, such as in the Bank those 3 men patrols can be taken out without an issue, even on expert)

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2012
    Location: Moscow, Russia
    Quote Originally Posted by nicked View Post
    One of the things I tried was making the Blackjack knockout noise slightly suspicious, so you get level one alerts when knocking someone out near another AI.
    It is interesting. If this works without bugs, perhaps this is the best solution. Need to check.

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2012
    Location: Moscow, Russia
    Quote Originally Posted by vfig View Post
    You don't need to include squirrel.osm in your fm, it's included with newdark (although I don't understand why people tend to include convict.osm and gen.osm in their mission zips either, since they're already in the game install??)
    As far as I remember, there is no problem with convict, but there was a problem with different versions of gen, and Zontik advised me to include gen in my mission.

    1. script_load squirrel (just as you would for any other .osm)
    2. Create a subfolder called sq_scripts in your fm's folder.
    3. Using notepad or any other text editor, paste the script below into a new file; save it in the sq_scripts folder and call it stimstun.nut.
    4. Add to your guards or their archetypes a receptron for WaterStim, with: No Min, No Max, Effect: Send to Scripts.
    5. Add to your guards or their archetypes the script StimStun
    6. Enter game mode and stimulate those guards with a water arrow...
    7. Edit the script as per its comments to change the stim type.
    Thank you, I will check it.

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