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Thread: Cancel culture cancelled the thread on cancel culture

  1. #76
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: I think I've been here
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDuck View Post
    *Scratches beard*

    Boy...the level of entrenchment in this thread would give a WW I soldier the biggest hard-on or send them shaking with PTSD-flashbacks.

    I'm with 'toll: this thread sucks.

    I agree with the assessment, but I'm not sure that meta commentary is helpful to raise the quality level.


    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    SD,
    Your concern about trans women assaulting cis women in bathrooms or changing rooms is the strawman. I'm not saying it can't happen, but how many cases have you ever heard of? Me - none. It's a made up hypothetical. On the other hand, there are LOTS of cases of trans women being assaulted by men. Now that is an actual problem, and a big contributor to it is homophobic men who don't understand gender assuming that trans women are just crossdressing sissies or straight perverts who want to stalk women in bathroom stalls.
    I don't think there'd be a problem with actual trans women in bathroom stalls for women. As you said, they are more likely to be victims.
    However if dick possession isn't a criteria anymore, how do you stop anyone from falsely claiming another gender for nefarious purposes. I think that is the (exaggerated) fear.
    Last edited by Kolya; 7th Jul 2020 at 16:34.

  2. #77
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    You shouldn't restrict individual liberty for a hypothetical problem that doesn't really exist in real life.

    Besides, SD already revealed the root of his concern. What this really boils down to is keeping women from potentially seeing dicks.

  3. #78
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    On your first point, it's not about invalidating how trans people feel. It's not really even about genuine trans people. It's about the practical danger penises pose to people without penises. It's unfortunate that we have to balance the fee-fees of trans people against the increased risk of sexual violence against women, but I make no apology for coming down on the side of the latter.
    You may not intend it to be about that, but that is most certainly the result. You can't say you support trans rights while denying trans people the essence of their identity. Your position necessitates prejudice against trans people, and your justification for it, as dethtoll pointed out, doesn't even make sense because it relies on gender essentialism, which is demonstrably false. There's too much variety, too much of a spectrum of human sexuality to argue bluntly that if you have a penis, you're a man, end of story. What about intersex people? Should we have a genital-inspection committee to decide where they are and aren't allowed? And if you're going to reduce people's sexuality to whether or not they have a penis, then you'd really better not allow gay couples to adopt a child because two penises could potentially do twice as much molesting as one.

    I think it's easier if people pretend their opponents are all grossed out bigots, because that saves them having to rationally justify allowing potential rapists into women's changing rooms and refuges.
    Like everyone else has said, anyone deranged enough to want to rape a woman doesn't need the cover of being trans to do so. What's actually easy is for someone who is uncomfortable with or doesn't understand what it means to be trans to say that trans people can't be permitted to live the way that makes them feel whole because they're a potential threat to society. And how many times have we heard that argument? Black men are a threat to white women. Gay men are a threat to children. It's a fear of the other, plain and simple. And JK Rowling's argument boiled down to her finding it annoying that people want her to be considerate of their feelings. Fine, she can have that opinion, but it makes her an asshole, and if she's going to use her enormous platform and influence over millions of readers to broadcast those views, then she absolutely deserves to be called out on it.

  4. #79
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2004
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    However if dick possession isn't a criteria anymore, how do you stop anyone from falsely claiming another gender for nefarious purposes. I think that is the (exaggerated) fear.
    What nefarious purposes would those be?

  5. #80
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: I think I've been here
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    You shouldn't restrict individual liberty for a hypothetical problem that doesn't really exist in real life.
    It's not that hypothetical. In fact it happens regularly that men enter women's stalls, especially when couples fight.
    Right now other women can argue him out with some authority, because "this is a women's bathroom! get out!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeshibu View Post
    What nefarious purposes would those be?
    Well any reasons why people harm other people. eg to drag out their drunken girlfriend who may have looked at another guy. Do I really need to explain this?

  6. #81
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    Can you point me to an example of a cis man masquerading as a trans woman who went into a women's bathroom or changing room and assaulted (even verbally) a woman?
    Even one example will be more than what I've heard so far.

  7. #82
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    I've yet to see a persuasive argument for why women and girls at, for instance, a public swimming pool should be made to undress in front of naked people with dicks. There's not a shred of concern on the trans extremist side for women who would feel uncomfortable about that. How can we allow our womenfolk to be exposed, literally, to that and be comfortable with it? It's absolutely barking mad.
    I guess to this I would say that Black folks weren't welcome in the movie theatre because how could we expose our women to such a theat? But the times, they are a-changing, and I think in the end what's between your legs won't matter as much. People will adapt; people will be fine. Kids today understand what it means to be trans or nonbinary way better than adults, and it's just not an issue for them.

  8. #83
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    I guess the other option, if we're going to be prudes for the rest of our existence, is individual changing stalls, which already exist in pretty much every change room.

  9. #84
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post

    Now you're saying the idea of a woman seeing a dick is barking mad. Are you serious? That's Islamic State thinking.
    Are you serious? Are you actually serious?

    You'd be happy with your wife going into a women's changing room and some dudes just going in there and pulling out their cocks in front of her whilst she's changing?

    I don't think SD mentioned physical assault at all, but he did mention this potential scenario. And you're happy with that, maybe your wife isn't.

    I want to know what Dia would think of that, so Dia, if you're reading this, please tell us how you'd feel about a stranger coming into the changing room at the gym, pulling his pants down and flopping out a dong in front of you.

  10. #85
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by Aja View Post
    I guess to this I would say that Black folks weren't welcome in the movie theatre because how could we expose our women to such a theat? But the times, they are a-changing, and I think in the end what's between your legs won't matter as much. People will adapt; people will be fine. Kids today understand what it means to be trans or nonbinary way better than adults, and it's just not an issue for them.
    Are you seriously comparing a black man sitting somewhere in the theatre you're in to a person coming into a woman's changing room and pulling out a cock in front of female children and women who themselves may be naked?

    Does it matter if the cock is erect or not? Not to you I guess.

  11. #86
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: I think I've been here
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    Can you point me to an example of a cis man masquerading as a trans woman who went into a women's bathroom or changing room and assaulted (even verbally) a woman?
    Even one example will be more than what I've heard so far.
    You honestly cannot imagine someone using this? There would be no masquerading needed. Just say "I'm a woman too, bitch! Now what!?".

    You see, the bathroom is some sort of sanctuary for many women. Where they go to cry for example. I'm sure there are better ways to protect this space than disallowing actual trans women from entering. But they're not as feasible in any situation. You cannot post a guard on any highway gas station stall. You cannot simply put camera surveillance there. I don't know? Make a suggestion! Just don't completely ignore this.

  12. #87
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Word Koyla.

    And it's not men saying this for the most part. A lot of women are worried about this, and not because they are phobic of anyone, but because they are concerned that their safe spaces will cease to exist. You can call them phobic if you like, but it can't be true for everyone.

  13. #88
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    You honestly cannot imagine someone using this? There would be no masquerading needed. Just say "I'm a woman too, bitch! Now what!?".
    Anyone can do this anyway.

  14. #89
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: I think I've been here
    Yes, but as I said, right now women can argue him out with some authority. If you take that moral backup away you're making it harder for them.

  15. #90
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    Well, at least we've gotten past the strawmen and are at the root of the issue now. This is all about the risk of a woman seeing a dick. Grow up. If you don't want to look at someone's body in a changing room, don't look at it. You talk as if trans women are just waiting for the opportunity to whip out their dick and show it off to cis women, which is about as far from reality as it gets. Where has this supposed problem occurred? Just give me one example.

  16. #91
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    Are you seriously comparing a black man sitting somewhere in the theatre you're in to a person coming into a woman's changing room and pulling out a cock in front of female children and women who themselves may be naked?
    I think it's pretty clear that I am because in both cases we're talking about an unlikely threat being used to justify the exclusion of an entire group of people. Again, there's nothing preventing a man with an erect penis from going into a change room now and exposing himself. If a cis woman is uncomfortable with a trans woman minding their own business in the change room, I think that's understandable but it doesn't justify bigotry. It's time that we as a society grew up.

  17. #92
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    There most certainly is something stopping a man doing that.

    They'd be kicked out of the gym, likely permanently.

    Here in the UK they would likely be charged for indecent exposure under the Sexual Offences Act 2003.


    I'm not going to say you're stupid, but it's really beginning to sound like it.

  18. #93
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    You know, it's really amazing to me that we've got two people in here convinced that someone committing what could be a crime punishable by a prison sentence is no big deal and we "as a society" need to "grow up".

    It's fucking incredible.

  19. #94
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    If a cis man did pretend to be trans in order to flash women, they would be kicked out of the gym too. And should be charged with indecent exposure. Same as if they didn't pretend to be trans. Nobody is suggesting that standard should be changed. I'm still waiting for an example of this supposed problem.

  20. #95
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    You know, it's really amazing to me that we've got two people in here convinced that someone committing what could be a crime punishable by a prison sentence is no big deal and we "as a society" need to "grow up".
    That's not what I said at all. What I said is that the mere possibility of someone committing a crime is not justification for denying the rights of an entire group of people.

  21. #96
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: I think I've been here
    I'll take that as 'yes' for my invitation to the nudist beach.

    Seriously though, you did say women who don't want to see another guy's dick should grow up.
    It seems to me you're seriously underestimating the drive of many men to show their dicks to women and how much that annoys women. Like you never heard of dick pics.
    Last edited by Kolya; 7th Jul 2020 at 18:43.

  22. #97
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    No, I said YOU should grow up. Guys don't need to pretend to be trans to text dick pics or flash women in public. In fact, pretending to be trans would pretty much defeat the purpose. Give me an example of a cis guy pretending to be trans in order to flash women. Just one single example.

  23. #98
    It's funny how this restroom so-called debate is always one sided.



    Being transgender is fucking hard. It's mentally and psychologically exhausting. Absolutely no-one wishes they were trans, just because they want to go to the ladies room. People who would do that are simply not trans. Trans people are still getting KILLED just for existing, ffs.

    Rowling is stirring flames and creating a very toxic atmosphere, and not only excludes trans women but acts as if trans men did not exist, which is very telling. She is a TERF (imho) because she explicitly rejects the validity of transgender identity, and she seems to me more and more one of these feminists that pit feminism and trans activism against each other, when it makes absolutely no sense. Both cis and trans women, AND trans men, are victims of violence. They should be allies, and thank goodness the great majority of feminists in my experience are actually inclusive and intersectional.

    I don't think most of the participants in this thread are transphobes, but good grief there's a lot of education needed. June is pretty much the only one who seems to have a clue about the issue here.

  24. #99
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2009
    Location: thiefgold.com
    Looks like cancel culture might cancel skyscrapers too.

  25. #100
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Do people seriously believe that there are straight male rapists out there who are going to dress as women so that they can enter female spaces to commit rape?
    Like, is this an actual thing which is occurring and that we are making effort to reverse, or are people just tilting at windmills?

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