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Thread: Cancel culture cancelled the thread on cancel culture

  1. #101
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2004
    I don't get any of this bathroom debate.

    Forget about trans or cis or whatever, if just a typical guy were to walk into a woman's bathroom to pee, would there be any chance of some poor lady getting a chance glance at his dick? Don't they go into stalls and close the door?

    Hell, if you're a man, in the men's room, you're still not letting it all hang out. With absolutely no concerns about gender coming into play, we all manage to figure out you don't just let your dick out in the breeze. It would be incredibly rude, so we don't do it. Is something very different going on in the women's room?

    I'm having real trouble imagining that there is anywhere out there a man, trans or otherwise, who would walk into a public bathroom and expose himself, who would actually be stopped from doing that by a law against trans people using a particular bathroom.

  2. #102
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    No one really knows what goes on at that Circle K off Hwy. 58 at 3AM, but other than that, I don't think it's much of a problem.

  3. #103
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: The Plateaux Of Mirror
    Quote Originally Posted by faetal View Post
    Do people seriously believe that there are straight male rapists out there who are going to dress as women so that they can enter female spaces to commit rape?
    I always assumed it was limited to people who fantasize about that constantly.

  4. #104
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    Quote Originally Posted by faetal View Post
    Do people seriously believe that there are straight male rapists out there who are going to dress as women so that they can enter female spaces to commit rape?
    This is literally what JK Rowling said in her spiel. It's pretty damn stupid because it passes an improbability as a highly real and present danger, and uses that to discriminate an entire minority. It's clearly shitty reasoning at best, and a sign of masked transphobia at worst.

  5. #105
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    SD,

    I don't see dethy misrepresenting you. You quite literally said that penises are the source of danger.

    Your concern about trans women assaulting cis women in bathrooms or changing rooms is the strawman.
    No. No. No. No.

    Not once have I said women are at particular risk of assault from transwomen. Why can't people just read what is written? Why do they have to make things up?

    The concern is that if you allow self-identification, alone, to be the sole criterion for allowing someone with a dick into women's safe spaces, then you necessarily expose those women to increased risks and you make them feel uncomfortable.

    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    An even more absurd strawman is saying that "hetero men are called transphobic because they don't want to date a woman with a cock."
    No, this is not a straw man, this is a fact. There are multiple examples of trans activists labelling hetero men and lesbians as transphobes if they don't want to date a transwoman. Here is one:

    https://medium.com/@QSE/when-you-say...y-aa6fdcf59aca

    Here is another:

    http://www.cambridgeblog.org/2019/06...-trans-person/

    Here is a third. This one comes with a video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X-PgHSZh6U

    I could post more examples, but I don't need to. This is mainstream thinking now among trans activists.

    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    Now you're saying the idea of a woman seeing a dick is barking mad. Are you serious? That's Islamic State thinking.
    I think it's a bit more than the idea of them seeing a dick, isn't it? You're talking about women and girls when they are at their most vulnerable, naked in a locker room, and telling them they must share that space with nude people with penises, perhaps even erections. You don't need to be Islamic State to see why they might just be ever so uncomfortable about that.

  6. #106
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by Aja View Post
    You may not intend it to be about that, but that is most certainly the result. You can't say you support trans rights while denying trans people the essence of their identity. Your position necessitates prejudice against trans people, and your justification for it, as dethtoll pointed out, doesn't even make sense because it relies on gender essentialism, which is demonstrably false. There's too much variety, too much of a spectrum of human sexuality to argue bluntly that if you have a penis, you're a man, end of story. What about intersex people? Should we have a genital-inspection committee to decide where they are and aren't allowed? And if you're going to reduce people's sexuality to whether or not they have a penis, then you'd really better not allow gay couples to adopt a child because two penises could potentially do twice as much molesting as one.
    This is utterly absurd, and especially the raising of intersex people, who by all accounts are fed up of being invoked in the trans debate.

    You say my position necessitates prejudice. But all freedoms that we enjoy need to be balanced against the freedoms of others. I freely admit that I would bar transwomen with penises from a handful of women-only safe spaces, because I consider the freedom of women and girls (including post-operative transwomen) to trump the freedom of transwomen who want to retain possession of their man bits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aja View Post
    Like everyone else has said, anyone deranged enough to want to rape a woman doesn't need the cover of being trans to do so.
    This is incredibly naive. Sex crimes, like other crimes, require means, motive and opportunity. It stands to reason that if you increase opportunity - say, by permitting people with penises free roam in spaces for vulnerable women - you run the risk of increasing the number of sex crimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aja View Post
    What's actually easy is for someone who is uncomfortable with or doesn't understand what it means to be trans to say that trans people can't be permitted to live the way that makes them feel whole because they're a potential threat to society.
    Hold on now. As a man in possession of the tool which is a prerequisite for rape, I already accept that I am theoretically a threat to vulnerable women in their safe spaces. Why shouldn't anyone else with a penis have to accept they're a potential threat too?

  7. #107
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    This is incredibly naive. Sex crimes, like other crimes, require means, motive and opportunity. It stands to reason that if you increase opportunity - say, by permitting people with penises free roam in spaces for vulnerable women - you run the risk of increasing the number of sex crimes.
    Let's examine this a little deeper. If this is really increasing the opportunity for a man to saunter into a restroom as a woman, what's stopped a man from literally doing this at any point in history anyway? They put on a gender-conforming disguise and walk in.

    You also seem to be misunderstanding the idea that rape is not about sex, it is about power. And a straight man dressing up as a woman to perpetrate a sex crime would be antithetical to that to begin with. Is it still a possibility? Yes. How possible is it? It's incredibly low to the point where marginalising an entire other section of the populace because of that is patently absurd.

  8. #108
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by faetal View Post
    Do people seriously believe that there are straight male rapists out there who are going to dress as women so that they can enter female spaces to commit rape?
    Like, is this an actual thing which is occurring and that we are making effort to reverse, or are people just tilting at windmills?
    This is an actual thing which is occurring.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8579146.html

    A transgender prisoner has been jailed for life after she admitted sexually assaulting two female inmates and previously raping two other women.

    Leeds Crown Court heard Karen White, 52, was a “predator” who posed a danger to women and children.

    White, who was born male but now identifies as a woman and is transitioning, was jailed for two counts of rape, two sexual assaults while being held on remand and one offence of wounding.

    She used her “transgender persona” to put herself in contact with vulnerable women, the court heard.

    White – described by Judge Christopher Batty as “highly manipulative” – has previous convictions for gross indecency involving children, indecent exposure, indecent assault, dishonesty and violence.

    Judge Batty told her: “You represent a significant risk of serious harm to children, to women and to the general public.”

    White must serve nine and a half years behind bars before she can be considered for parole.

    Prosecutors said there was evidence to suggest her “approach to transitioning has been less than committed” and in fact designed to allow White access to vulnerable victims.

    Now just remember - you're a bigot and a transphobe if you oppose putting people like Karen White into women's prisons with the most vulnerable women in our entire society. Because if Karen White says she's a woman, despite being a rapist in possession of a penis, who are we to argue?

  9. #109
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    congratulations, you found the one trans woman predator, clearly that makes all trans women (oh, i'm sorry, "pre-op" transwomen, because you're obsessed with genitals) a threat to precious cis women

  10. #110
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulphur View Post
    Let's examine this a little deeper. If this is really increasing the opportunity for a man to saunter into a restroom as a woman, what's stopped a man from literally doing this at any point in history anyway? They put on a gender-conforming disguise and walk in.
    Because they'd be chucked out and arrested the moment they got their knob out, if not before then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sulphur View Post
    You also seem to be misunderstanding the idea that rape is not about sex, it is about power. And a straight man dressing up as a woman to perpetrate a sex crime would be antithetical to that to begin with. Is it still a possibility? Yes. How possible is it? It's incredibly low to the point where marginalising an entire other section of the populace because of that is patently absurd.
    I think sex is kind of intrinsic to rape. And I've literally just posted an example of a man dressing as a women to perpetrate sex crimes against vulnerable women.

  11. #111
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Karen White is an extreme example, but kind of the ultimate example of this. Google will help you.

    But really I'm not even thinking rape is the issue.

    Why do we have to talk rape?

    Isn't it enough that this would facilitate men who wish to look at women or girls undressing or expose themselves?

  12. #112
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by june gloom View Post
    congratulations, you found the one trans woman predator, clearly that makes all trans women (oh, i'm sorry, "pre-op" transwomen, because you're obsessed with genitals) a threat to precious cis women
    Nobody said anything about all transwomen being a threat. Keep on railing against those straw men.

    Still, at least you now accept that people with dicks posing as women to attack women is not just a product of my diseased, bigoted mind, and that these things actually happen in reality. I call that progress. Eventually you may even accept that the right of women not to be raped is more important than the right of transwomen to be indulged.

  13. #113
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    Because they'd be chucked out and arrested the moment they got their knob out, if not before then.
    I'm pretty sure if you're a trans person with a penis and need to pee, you'd use a stall in the women's restroom, unless you somehow foresee people needing to pee in the sink. If everyone really does have a problem with a trans person's penis, I think it's fairly clear that the stall still exists for changing.

    I think sex is kind of intrinsic to rape. And I've literally just posted an example of a man dressing as a women to perpetrate sex crimes against vulnerable women.
    You have posted an incident, of a convicted criminal, committing crimes in a jail. How does this signify that the vast majority of women on the planet are unsafe from the wiles of a legion of cross-dressing rapists that use a trans identity as a cover?

  14. #114
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulphur View Post
    I'm pretty sure if you're a trans woman with a penis and need to pee, you'd use a stall in the women's restroom, unless you somehow foresee people needing to pee in the sink.
    Okay, you're talking about restrooms; I was talking about changing rooms, refuges and prisons. Sorry, I didn't notice the goalpost move when I replied to your earlier post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sulphur View Post
    You have posted an incident, of a convicted criminal, committing crimes in a jail. How does this signify that the vast majority of women on the planet are unsafe from the wiles of a legion of cross-dressing rapists that use a trans identity as a cover?
    You only need a single black swan to disprove the notion that all swans are white.

    If people are going to argue that they're aware of the risks, and they think women should be made to accept those risks, then at least that is intellectually honest. It's the claim that there's no risk which is offensive and untrue.

  15. #115
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    I didn't know that not wanting to date a trans woman was considered trans phobic. Interesting. Ridiculous.

  16. #116
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    Okay, you're talking about restrooms; I was talking about changing rooms, refuges and prisons. Sorry, I didn't notice the goalpost move when I replied to your earlier post.
    We were talking about the JKR thing before you stepped in, and I singled out restrooms from her post. I don't discount changing rooms being uncomfortable, but let's talk about the bare minimum first before we even get there, yes?

    You only need a single black swan to disprove the notion that all swans are white.
    No one ever said that? The possibility is true of everyone. And the reverse notion stands: a cis-gendered criminal does not make all cis-gendered people criminal.

    If people are going to argue that they're aware of the risks, and they think women should be made to accept those risks, then at least that is intellectually honest. It's the claim that there's no risk which is offensive and untrue.
    Everything has a risk %. I don't think anyone is discounting the possibility of a bad actor in any population. The point is how much discrimination and marginalisation are you proposing over the low, low possibility of this eventuating given your incident of one person across a population that is far higher than that?

  17. #117
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    I didn't know that not wanting to date a trans woman was considered trans phobic. Interesting. Ridiculous.
    It is ridiculous, but if you think about it, it's the logical conclusion of the argument that transwomen are women.

    For instance: I am a heterosexual man. I am attracted to women. Therefore, if transwomen are women, I ought to be attracted to transwomen.

    However, the fact that I'm not attracted to transwomen (like the overwhelming majority of straight men) is obviously a grave threat to the new trans orthodoxy. Therefore I must be marked out as a heretic and a bigot.

  18. #118
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    lotta straight men obsessed with other peoples' junk ITT

    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    You only need a single black swan to disprove the notion that all swans are white.
    by this logic, we shouldn't let immigrants into "western" nations because some of them might be terrorists

  19. #119
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Most of them probably aren't terrorists, but I'd still argue the state shouldn't provide any of them with a rucksack full of gelignite.

  20. #120
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    it's honestly amazing that you think trans people just being able to live their lives is equivalent to "the state giving immigrants explosives"

    like literally what is wrong with your brain, are you going to stand in front of every women's bathrooms and demand a strip search so you can make sure they have the "correct" anatomical configuration?

  21. #121
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    why the fuck you so obsessed with genitals anyway

  22. #122
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: melon labneh
    For me the question boils down to how many lives will be improved by accepting a group that is already one of the most vulnerable (due to daily bigotry and dysphoria) in spaces where they can be themselves Vs. how many lives will be improved by assuming malicious self-gendering by default when it comes to women spaces.

    I don't know how to predict either but my anecdotal experience is that I know several transgender people and all of them have considered suicide at some point. I know women who have been sexually assaulted but as far as I know none was by a trans woman. Of course, it will and has happened. I'm just very doubtful about the actual numbers, and in doubt I'd rather take the option that will allow more people to actually feel validated.

  23. #123
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    This is utterly absurd, and especially the raising of intersex people, who by all accounts are fed up of being invoked in the trans debate.
    I don't mean to conflate intersex and trans people, but you can see how this issue might overlap, and if you start trying to lay down the law about genitals and where they're permitted, you're just going to run into further problems and be forced to make more arbitrary decisions about who is allowed where.


    You only need a single black swan to disprove the notion that all swans are white.
    No one is trying to disprove that it's not possible; I've said over and over throughout this thread that it's about it being a very slim possibility. You talk about balancing freedoms; well, I'm willing to weigh the freedom of trans people's acceptance in society against the very marginal possibility of someone abusing that freedom. Citing the one anomalous example (that every person who makes your argument cites) doesn't help your argument at all because it's not backed by statistical evidence.

    Now just remember - you're a bigot and a transphobe if you oppose putting people like Karen White into women's prisons with the most vulnerable women in our entire society.
    No, you're a bigot and a transphobe if you refer to all trans women as "people like Karen White," which you just did.

  24. #124
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by june gloom View Post
    it's honestly amazing that you think trans people just being able to live their lives is equivalent to "the state giving immigrants explosives"

    like literally what is wrong with your brain, are you going to stand in front of every women's bathrooms and demand a strip search so you can make sure they have the "correct" anatomical configuration?
    Again with the bathrooms straw man. It's really quite something that no matter how much I keep talking about safe spaces like refuges, changing rooms and prisons, you keep shifting it back to toilets. When literally nobody here has an issue with trans people using whichever toilet they want.

    My actual argument is really quite easy to grasp: the existence of transwomen who make no effort towards transition means that anyone in possession of a penis can self-identify into any area, rendering gatekeeping impossible. And I happen to think that to be a bad thing.

  25. #125
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    I'm all for trans people having their own safe spaces. I'm just not sure they should be the same safe spaces as women, especially if you make women uncomfortable.

    We seem to be getting into the detail rather than looking at the bigger picture. There is a reason for male and female changing rooms isn't there, or are you all so liberal you think that's outdated and the women who like this set-up are all prudes or something?

    And since you all like going into detail, for me the problem scenario is trans women, with cocks, going into female changing rooms and either purposely or not purposely exposing those cocks to women who do not wish to see them. It doesn't matter if the trans man is getting erect, flopping their cock around or otherwise trying to expose their genitals to these women (or girls for that matter), or if they are just going about their business getting changed to go swimming or whatever - what matters is the women feeling uncomfortable with that.

    But fuck them I guess. No pun intended.

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