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Thread: Cancel culture cancelled the thread on cancel culture

  1. #126
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    the existence of transwomen who make no effort towards transition
    maybe you haven't figured this out but a shocking majority of trans people are poor and cannot afford GRS

    your entire argument isn't just transphobic ("trans women are men, especially if they have a penis, which i am absolutely obsessed with") it's classist

  2. #127
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    I'm not sure if it's classist dethtoll, but aren't there trans people who don't want GRS anyway? It's not a requirement of "being trans" is it?

  3. #128
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by Aja View Post
    I don't mean to conflate intersex and trans people, but you can see how this issue might overlap, and if you start trying to lay down the law about genitals and where they're permitted, you're just going to run into further problems and be forced to make more arbitrary decisions about who is allowed where.
    Really, because so far as I can see, our society has tolerated the existence of intersex people for thousands of years without any major issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aja View Post
    No one is trying to disprove that it's not possible; I've said over and over throughout this thread that it's about it being a very slim possibility. You talk about balancing freedoms; well, I'm willing to weigh the freedom of trans people's acceptance in society against the very marginal possibility of someone abusing that freedom. Citing the one anomalous example (that every person who makes your argument cites) doesn't help your argument at all because it's not backed by statistical evidence.
    Actually there's more statistical evidence than you think ("Transgender prisoners are five times more likely to carry out sex attacks on inmates at women’s jails than other prisoners are, official figures show") but let's put that aside for a moment.

    You talk about acceptance in society. But society accepts the existence of transpeople already. In this country we even pay for their treatment. What you're really demanding is that everyone believes whatever transpeople want everyone to believe about them in order to make them feel better. That's not going to happen, and in fact, if you're pinning your happiness on the approval of others, then you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aja View Post
    No, you're a bigot and a transphobe if you refer to all trans women as "people like Karen White," which you just did.
    I did no such thing. That is a vicious lie. When I wrote "people like Karen White" I was referring to "people like Karen White". Quite how you get from that to "all trans women" is bizarre.

  4. #129
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    I'm not sure if it's classist dethtoll, but aren't there trans people who don't want GRS anyway? It's not a requirement of "being trans" is it?
    don't call me dethtoll, thanks

  5. #130
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    Again with the bathrooms straw man. It's really quite something that no matter how much I keep talking about safe spaces like refuges, changing rooms and prisons, you keep shifting it back to toilets. When literally nobody here has an issue with trans people using whichever toilet they want.
    It's not a strawman when it's literally the first thing in this sentence from the essay:

    Quote Originally Posted by J K Rowling
    'When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman'
    And that's fairly intolerant phrasing to begin with.

    You say you're worried about men making safe spaces for women unsafe, but what you actually seem to be saying is you're okay with invalidating the identities of people who identify themselves as trans as collateral damage. Let's give you the benefit of a doubt - if you've got a solution to this outside of discrimination, let's hear it.

  6. #131
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    threads like this make me really glad i'm not cishet, imagine living in the world SD and subjeff and icemann do

  7. #132
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    No one is saying that though Sulphur.

  8. #133
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by june gloom View Post
    maybe you haven't figured this out but a shocking majority of trans people are poor and cannot afford GRS

    your entire argument isn't just transphobic ("trans women are men, especially if they have a penis, which i am absolutely obsessed with") it's classist
    Sorry, you're just talking bollocks.

    One of my colleagues in work came out as transgender a short while ago. I was one of the first people in the office she told, as it happens. The state pays for her hormone treatment. The state pays for her counselling. The state, who is also our employer, allows her all the time off she wants if she's feeling unwell (because transitioning takes a heavy toll on the body), and time off to attend therapy sessions. When the time is right, the state will also foot the bill for any surgery.

    I'm sorry for you that you live in the only western country that doles out healthcare on ability to pay rather than medical need, but what is true for the United States is certainly not true here. No transgender person in the UK needs to suffer for lack of money.

  9. #134
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by june gloom View Post
    threads like this make me really glad i'm not cishet, imagine living in the world SD and subjeff and icemann do
    Err, I'm all for equal rights for all people dude.

    That statement is actually hilariously discriminatory, like you think my cishet status is a bad thing. What next, my race? My religion? You're accusing me of being intolerant (which I'm not) whilst at the same time dissing all cishet people.

    Good job.

  10. #135
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    Sorry, you're just talking bollocks.

    One of my colleagues in work came out as transgender a short while ago. I was one of the first people in the office she told, as it happens. The state pays for her hormone treatment. The state pays for her counselling. The state, who is also our employer, allows her all the time off she wants if she's feeling unwell (because transitioning takes a heavy toll on the body), and time off to attend therapy sessions. When the time is right, the state will also foot the bill for any surgery.

    I'm sorry for you that you live in the only western country that doles out healthcare on ability to pay rather than medical need, but what is true for the United States is certainly not true here. No transgender person in the UK needs to suffer for lack of money.
    and that makes your argument okay? that makes it not classist? that american trans women should be barred from living the life they want to live because they can't afford GRS and therefore aren't "real" trans women?

    christ, boy

  11. #136
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    I'm sorry for you that you live in the only western country that doles out healthcare on ability to pay rather than medical need, but what is true for the United States is certainly not true here. No transgender person in the UK needs to suffer for lack of money.
    Actually this might be why june has made this mistake. He (she?) may not have been aware of this fact here in the UK (where SD and I are).

    I guess in the USA there IS a class aspect to this.

    Would any of our European members like to chime in on the costs for GRS? And Sulphur, what's the situation there?

  12. #137
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    He (she?)
    neither, i put the mayhem in the they/them, but "she" is fine too i guess if that helps your poor brain

  13. #138
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulphur View Post
    It's not a strawman when it's literally the first thing in this sentence from the essay:

    And that's fairly intolerant phrasing to begin with.

    You say you're worried about men making safe spaces for women unsafe, but what you actually seem to be saying is you're okay with invalidating the identities of people who identify themselves as trans as collateral damage. Let's give you the benefit of a doubt - if you've got a solution to this outside of discrimination, let's hear it.
    Well, I'm not JK Rowling, so I don't feel the need to defend her precise phrasing, which I agree was clumsy. If people are going to attack me, I'd prefer it to be over things I've actually written rather than things other people have written.

    I don't think there is a solution outside of discrimination. I'm more than happy for untransitioned transwomen to be treated like women 99.9% of the time. It's just that handful of safe spaces I'm uneasy with. I've said why I'm uneasy with it, I've given real-world examples that support my stance, and at no point have I attempted to invalidate anyone's identity.

    We live in a world where abuse perpetrated by men against women is absolutely rife. Sue me if I place the highest priority on not making it any easier for that abuse to occur. If this hurts the feelings of a small minority of people, it's extremely regrettable, but unavoidable. Lop your meat and two veg off if it's that important to you to be allowed into women's changing rooms and prisons.

  14. #139
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by june gloom View Post
    and that makes your argument okay? that makes it not classist? that american trans women should be barred from living the life they want to live because they can't afford GRS and therefore aren't "real" trans women?

    christ, boy
    If you're asking me if I think transgender people in the United States should have their medical costs met by the state, it's a resounding yes.

    But let's face it, transgender people are hardly the biggest victims of the lack of universal healthcare in our former colony.

  15. #140
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    can you like, make literally any argument that doesn't center around genitals, it's creepy

    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    dick
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    scrotum
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    lady-dick
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    cock
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    dicks
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    dicks
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    dicks
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    penises
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    penises
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    dicks
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    dick
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    dick
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    penises
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    man bits
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    penises
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    penis
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    penis
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    knob
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    dicks
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    meat and two veg

  16. #141
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    hell you even said "bollocks" which in any other case would be innocuous but in this situation i gotta wonder!

  17. #142
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by june gloom View Post
    can you like, make literally any argument that doesn't center around genitals, it's creepy
    No, because it's at the heart of the matter.

    All the women I've known that have been raped have been raped by dicks. There is no getting away from that fact.

  18. #143
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    and who owned those dicks?

  19. #144
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    The rapists?

    Your sidetracking is on another level june.

  20. #145
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    I did no such thing. That is a vicious lie. When I wrote "people like Karen White" I was referring to "people like Karen White". Quite how you get from that to "all trans women" is bizarre.
    You want to ban all trans women from women-only spaces on the basis that they might be offenders. How is that functionally different than what I accused you of when you treat every trans women as a potential Karen White?

  21. #146
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    You know what's hilarious? You two have been my biggest adversaries in discussions on here. SD years ago, june gloom in more recent years.

    And I know both of you aren't dicks. Both of you actually agree much more than I think either of you realise. I know this from years of being on the other side of arguments with.

    If you'd stop the over reactions june, I think you'd see you both have a lot more in common than either of you have with me because you're both more liberal and less authoritarian than I, and both more left wing.

    It's quite a thing, for me, to be largely on SD's side in a discussion.

  22. #147
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    the fact that you actually agree with him on this just tells me that we have nothing in common

    and anyway i wasn't asking you

  23. #148
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by Aja View Post
    You want to ban all trans women from women-only spaces on the basis that they might be offenders. How is that functionally different than what I accused you of when you treat every trans women as a potential Karen White?
    Is it on the basis that they might be offenders, or on the basis that women find it problematic?

    It's certainly the latter for me, mostly, but with the acknowledgement that the former is possible.

    And if only a few assaults occur because of letting trans men into female spaces, even if it's fake trans criminals, I still think it's not worth it.

    What's wrong with a trans changing room?

    Where is Dia when you need her?

  24. #149
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by june gloom View Post
    the fact that you actually agree with him on this just tells me that we have nothing in common
    This is illogical. An ad hominem of no use.

    SD and I also agree that urination is necessary, so hold in you pee and lets see you squirm even more.

  25. #150
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: they/them mayhem
    jesus what a head-in-ass argument, is this seriously what you're going for, "LOL WE THINK YOU MUST PEE SO DO YOU JUST HOLD IT IN?"

    you don't get to complain about my debate tactics (read: i refuse to debate you, i've gone down that road many a time and there ain't nothing at the end of it but disappointment, and you hate it) and then pull this kind of 12-year-old shit

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