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Thread: Doom, Quake, the original Team Fortress, etc.

  1. #26
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: under God's grace
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    If not I'll have to hard reset it and configure it from scratch, which is not something I want to take on near term.
    Not to worry, I think I can get my router configured, so lemme know when you'd like to play a round or two. I must warn, I'm pretty much a noob when it comes to Quake. But it's about having fun

  2. #27
    PC Gamering Smartey Man
    I <3 consoles and gamepads

    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: New Zealand
    Quote Originally Posted by henke View Post
    But like lots of these boomer shooters there's not much of a narrative which is kinda turning me off. I didn't think much of DUSK either. Sharpshooter3D is a Russian antifa FPS and just about the most punk thing I've ever played, only available on itch. Strafe came out a few years ago and disappointed a lot of people when it was less of a mindless Quake-y thing and more of a roguelite Teleglitch-esque thing. I loved it tho. Prodeus and Amid Evil look cool, haven't played em.
    Can I ask what did you go in expecting? Common sense would dictate that modern games trying to emulate games of a particular style and from a particular era would you know, be like the games that they're trying to emulate.

    I bought Wrath: Aeon of Fury a few months ago and refunded it swiftly. It's too "90s shooter for its own good" IMO. I got lost in a shitty Hexen-esque hub map. A real shame because the core mechanics I thought were tight and helluva lotta fun.

  3. #28
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    I was expecting em to keep the good parts of 90's shooters and improve on the bad parts. Both DUSK and Ion Fury just dumps you straight into the first levels and then you're running around shooting dudes, for... some... reason? Some kinda narrative to contextualize what's going on would've helped. Without it I got bored fast. And it's not like this stuff hadn't been invented by the 90's. Strife did a good job of worldbuilding and giving you some sense of purpose. I wish these new boomer shooters could've copied that instead of going with Quake and Doom as inspirations for how to tell their story. (that is: don't bother, just put it in the manual somewhere)

  4. #29
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Well, y'know, we moved on from those games for reasons. That being said, I know a lot of players that just flat out don't like story and skip it as much as possible. ...They're not by-and-large into retro gaming, though.

  5. #30
    PC Gamering Smartey Man
    I <3 consoles and gamepads

    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: New Zealand
    Quote Originally Posted by henke View Post
    Without it I got bored fast.
    That's a you problem, tough luck. If you see a hole in the market, you could try filling it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    Well, y'know, we moved on from those games for reasons. That being said, I know a lot of players that just flat out don't like story and skip it as much as possible. ...They're not by-and-large into retro gaming, though.
    Since HL and CoD set the trends they have gone so far in the opposite direction of "boomer shooters", for far too long. There's been such a heavy narrative focus; an over-abundance of cutscenes/scripted sequences; linearity of level design. I can totally see why the audience has pushed so violently against the tired genre trends of the last 20ish years.

    "we moved on from those games for reasons." Who're you to make this proclamation? That sentiment is just like the AAA industry abandoning entire genres which they perceived were dead, when in reality they had ravenous audiences. Eg Survival Horror, flight sims, space flight sims, CRPGs, RTSes.

    The obvious sentiments are let the free market decides what games we see more of; and if you don't like it, don't buy it.

  6. #31
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    Uh, yeah, I never said it was anything other than my issue with these games.

  7. #32
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    Quote Originally Posted by Qooper View Post
    Not to worry, I think I can get my router configured, so lemme know when you'd like to play a round or two. I must warn, I'm pretty much a noob when it comes to Quake. But it's about having fun
    I ran into a snag. I dug out my old (very old) Quake folder and not surprisingly, the exe wouldn't run on Win 10. So I tried the latest DarkPlaces GLQuake port and that had problems too which I haven't had time to research. Maybe I should try the Steam version? I was hoping to use my old Quake folder because I had it full of mods, models, skins, and server settings. I should have some time after the kids go to bed on Tues or Wed to try again.

    Quote Originally Posted by EvaUnit02 View Post
    That's a you problem, tough luck. If you see a hole in the market, you could try filling it?

    Since HL and CoD set the trends they have gone so far in the opposite direction of "boomer shooters", for far too long. There's been such a heavy narrative focus; an over-abundance of cutscenes/scripted sequences; linearity of level design. I can totally see why the audience has pushed so violently against the tired genre trends of the last 20ish years.

    "we moved on from those games for reasons." Who're you to make this proclamation? That sentiment is just like the AAA industry abandoning entire genres which they perceived were dead, when in reality they had ravenous audiences. Eg Survival Horror, flight sims, space flight sims, CRPGs, RTSes.

    The obvious sentiments are let the free market decides what games we see more of; and if you don't like it, don't buy it.
    When it comes to single-player gaming, Henke and Pyrian are right. Doom started out as basically a fancy tech demo. As soon as most gamers got over the initial awe of being able to run around a 3D environment from the first person perspective, they wanted something more than the basic shooting gallery gameplay. Multiplayer was great fun on a LAN for those who had the opportunity, but otherwise people were quick to move on to first person games with more story and/or gameplay depth like Hexen, Dark Forces, Duke 3D or System Shock. Quake also started out like a tech demo. Nobody I knew bothered to finish the single player campaign, and sales didn't take off until QuakeWorld. Even id knew they weren't going to get away with that again, which is why Quake II has an interactive story to drive it along. Multiplayer and the mod scene kept these games popular for a long time, not the single player gameplay. That's the point I think retro shooters are missing.

  8. #33
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    I'd suggest quakespasm - I seem to recall that was the sourceport which worked the best for me.

  9. #34
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Netherlands
    Quakespasm also was easy to work with for me last time I tried it, but I didn't do any server-related stuff. Those fancy source ports with all kinds of graphical upgrades always gave me graphics glitches or something else that didn't work right.

  10. #35
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    I don't think Quakespasm has any fancy graphics upgrades other than higher resolutions?

  11. #36
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    Doom started out as basically a fancy tech demo.
    Literally every game that uses a custom engine "starts out" as a demo of that technology, which then becomes "fancied" into an actual playable game, so how is this in any way a useful statement?

    Or are you saying that Doom, the game, is little more than a tech demo? Because if you're saying that, then y'know... fuck you. Doom is a legitimately great game. There's a reason people are still making single-player maps for it almost 30 years later.

    Quake, on the other hand, kind of sucked as a single-player game.

  12. #37
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Netherlands

    Doom, Quake, the original Team Fortress, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless Voice View Post
    I don't think Quakespasm has any fancy graphics upgrades other than higher resolutions?
    Yes thatís what I meant. Quakespasm worked fine, all the other ones I tried that DID have graphics upgrades like Quake HD or Epsilon or whatever glitched out on me or had other things that didnít work correctly. So thatís why I recommend Quakespasm and besides, the original textures have their own charm.

    I agree with ZylonBane that Doom is awesome, every few years or so the urge to replay Doom 1/2 rises in me.

  13. #38
    Thing What Kicks
    Registered: Apr 2004
    Location: London
    heywood, if you want to move custom maps, models, etc. those can be easily moved to a new installation.

    I just got AD back up and running again with Quakespasm on Win10, and it was pretty simple.

    I downloaded Quakespasm, extracted it then copied the Id1 folder from the Steam installation directory in to the Quakespasm folder (right-click Quake in Steam, choose Manage>Browse Local Files).
    That got Quakespasm up and running.

    I then downloaded Arcane Dimensions and the patch.

    I then created a folder called ad in the Quakespasm folder alongside the Id1 folder and extracted the contents of the Arcane Dimensions archive in to that folder. I then did the same for the patch, choosing to overwrite files when prompted.

    I then created a new shortcut on the desktop and pointed it at the quakespasm.exe file, and named it Arcane Dimensions.
    Finally, I right-clicked the shortcut, chose Properties and added -game ad to the target line after the speech marks. Once I Okayed that, I was able to launch straight in to Arcane Dimensions using the shortcut.

    Bish, bash, bosh, job's a goodun.

    The same should be true for any other mods and maps you want to run.

  14. #39
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    Thanks Malf.

    ZB - It depends on what Doom you're talking about, the single player game originally released in 1993, or the open game platform it evolved into. If not for the reverse engineering and early availability of an editor, and id's unofficial support for it, it would not have attracted the community of map makers and modders that have kept it alive all these years. Doom editing was also easy to get into because of its design and the limited capabilities of the engine. My point is that the lasting appeal of Doom comes from the engine & platform that people can create with, not the original DOOM.WAD.

  15. #40
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    "Doom is great as a game and not just as an engine because people are still using it as an engine as opposed to playing the game" is a strange take.

  16. #41
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: under God's grace
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    I ran into a snag. I dug out my old (very old) Quake folder and not surprisingly, the exe wouldn't run on Win 10. So I tried the latest DarkPlaces GLQuake port and that had problems too which I haven't had time to research. Maybe I should try the Steam version? I was hoping to use my old Quake folder because I had it full of mods, models, skins, and server settings. I should have some time after the kids go to bed on Tues or Wed to try again.
    I also encountered a slight obstacle. My ISP won't open any ports, so I'm going to have to rent a server from Germany. It'll take a day or two, but at least it's cheap. Also I sent ye a PM.

  17. #42
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    I unashamedly love both Doom and Quake 1 SP.

  18. #43
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2006
    Location: On the tip of your tongue.
    Yup, gotta agree. Quake 1 single player is great - lean, tight, well-designed shooting. Certainly better than the clunky brown fetch quests of Quake 2.

    And it's hard to recall these days, now that it feels more like a cartoonish shooting gallery, but playing Doom when it was new, it was a heart-pounding, terrifying experience.

    But if you're judging either game by the depth of narrative, you're doing it wrong...

  19. #44
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    I've never actually played Quake beyond the demo. I keep meaning to, but every time I look at it, it's just so very ugly. The aesthetic really has nothing to recommend it. Even the monsters are barely-defined blobs of polygons.

    Now Realms of the Haunting, that's something I'd like to power through some time.

  20. #45
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    See, that's how I feel about Quake 2. Quake 1 has loads of atmosphere, largely due to the soundtrack. You can't play it without the music or it loses half the essence.

  21. #46
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2016
    Location: The Mystic's Keep
    Quote Originally Posted by henke View Post
    Both DUSK and Ion Fury just dumps you straight into the first levels and then you're running around shooting dudes, for... some... reason?
    Bit late on the reply, but DUSK does actually have context for who you are and what's going on later in the game, though it's told mostly through the environment. It's not perfect by any means, but it is better at storytelling than most of the first episode would have you believe.

  22. #47
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Maupertuis
    Quake's aesthetics do have some depth. It was originally limited to 256 colors. Most games of that color depth chose a broad, general palette evenly divided between various hues, saturations and values. Quake, however, uses a highly constrained, custom-designed palette, allowing greater variety within the colors it relies most on. When I actually looked it up one time, I was startled by how few greens and blues its palette possessed.

    Yes, one effect of this palette is that Quake is very brown. There was a brief period of gaming in which this was a good thing.

  23. #48
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchic Fox View Post
    Yes, one effect of this palette is that Quake is very brown. There was a brief period of gaming in which this was a good thing.
    I'm going to designate that period "Never". Software 3D games like Thief and Terminator: Future Shock somehow managed to depict much more colorful yet also pleasingly-lit worlds with the same 256-color limitation.

  24. #49
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Maupertuis
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    I'm going to designate that period "Never". Software 3D games like Thief and Terminator: Future Shock somehow managed to depict much more colorful yet also pleasingly-lit worlds with the same 256-color limitation.
    Thief looks way better, but its aesthetics are (IMO) the best of the era, and... it uses the very same trick. You can see there are far fewer saturated and bright colors on the Thief palette than a standard one. So, I'm not going to knock Quake because Thief implemented one of its graphical innovations better.

    Another good thing about Quake's aesthetics is the way every monster has a distinctive silhouette, aiding quick identification. This is an easy and helpful trick that, even now, many games fail to implement. Sure, some of these shapes are very crudely defined, but I felt this added to the cosmic-horror feel of the game: you're fighting monstrosities that don't obey physics. Yon shambler is a wall of flesh, and a fiend is all claws, mouth and legs, which works for this game.

    There's no helping it if Quake runs contrary to your tastes, but it deserves better than "the aesthetic really has nothing to recommend it."
    Last edited by Anarchic Fox; 13th Jan 2021 at 03:10.

  25. #50
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    Terminator: Future Shock somehow managed to depict much more colorful yet also pleasingly-lit worlds with the same 256-color limitation.
    What? Terminator Future Shock more like 256 Shades Of Grey.

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