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Thread: Doom, Quake, the original Team Fortress, etc.

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: under God's grace

    Doom, Quake, the original Team Fortress, etc.

    So I've had lots of time to play video games lately. I dunno, something about the AAA-stuff they release these days just rubs me the wrong way. Like it's mandatory for them to be generic and not surprising in any way. Anyways, I found the original Quake on GOG and decided to give it a go (I've never played it through, only a few levels from the shareware version when I was a kid). Well dayum this stuff rocks! None of that cover-based bullshit neither, no sir! You gotta have quick aim AND know how to bunnyhop and rocketjump properly to get stuff well done. I also installed the original Team Fortress mod and tried it out and instantly got the urge to play it with friends.

    Would anyone here be interested in duking it out in Quake deathmatch? Or the original Doom?

    EDIT: There's some Quake in Cargo Bay 5 if anyone wants. Go get the nQuake-client and connect to 80.241.209.47:28501.
    Last edited by Qooper; 15th Jan 2021 at 12:14. Reason: Progress on the Quake-server

  2. #2
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    You should be playing AA instead of AAA. That's where the creativity is these days.

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    I managed to play Quake just fine without ever bunnyhopping, thanks.

    I seriously don't understand why people hold that up as some kind of ideal?

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Somewhere
    yeh it was always about the rocket jumping

  5. #5
    Thing What Kicks
    Registered: Apr 2004
    Location: London
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless Voice View Post
    I managed to play Quake just fine without ever bunnyhopping, thanks.

    I seriously don't understand why people hold that up as some kind of ideal?
    Due to a glitch in the way movement physics works, bunny hopping, or more accurately, strafe-jumping, allows for increased movement speed. This movement glitch is present throughout the Quake series, although works slightly differently in each one. At a certain level of competetiveness, playing without strafe-jumping puts you at a distinct disadvantage.

    Mods frequently capitalise on these movement methods, with DeFRaG for Quake 3 in particular being all about them.
    I love a good DeFRaG video, and honestly believe they showcase some of the best skills in gaming. They're also frequently incredibly well edited and produced.

    Here's the DeFRaG World Cup 2019 movie:



    Just a couple of notes to help you interpret what you're seeing:
    Each round consists of two runs, one using normal "VQ3" physics, and one using Challenge ProMode Arena mod "CPM" physics.
    The UPS in the bottom-right stands for "Units Per Second", where a Unit is a world measurement. Under normal circumstances, a player in Quake 3 moves at 320 UPS.
    Last edited by Malf; 29th Dec 2020 at 04:47.

  6. #6
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Unreal > Quake.

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    I'm not saying I don't understand the mechanics of bunny-hopping, I'm saying that I don't understand the appeal.

    The fact that there's a bug that allows you to move incredibly fast by doing something ridiculous doesn't answer the question of why people like the bug and intentionally add it to other games, instead of wanting it fixed.

  8. #8
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    cuz hopping around like a bunny is COOL OK

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless Voice View Post
    I'm not saying I don't understand the mechanics of bunny-hopping, I'm saying that I don't understand the appeal.
    People like showing they've learned a skill and even more if they can show they're better at it than others. Even better if there's an opportunity for someone to show they've learned multiple skills that work together as a whole and they're better at it than others.

    It's the basis for anything competetive.

    As far as replicating the engine feature in future engines, the developers wanted to make the newer games appeal to those invested in the previous ones.

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: under God's grace
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    You should be playing AA instead of AAA. That's where the creativity is these days.
    You got me intrigued. Other than Dusk, which titles do you recommend? Also, can't wait for Gloomwood to be released!

  11. #11
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    Oh there's been a pile of 90's-inspired boomer shooters recently. I kinda feel like the Shadow Warrior and DOOM reboots from a few years ago got the ball rolling and the indie scene took it from there.

    Ion Fury is made with the Build engine and looks great. But like lots of these boomer shooters there's not much of a narrative which is kinda turning me off. I didn't think much of DUSK either. Sharpshooter3D is a Russian antifa FPS and just about the most punk thing I've ever played, only available on itch. Strafe came out a few years ago and disappointed a lot of people when it was less of a mindless Quake-y thing and more of a roguelite Teleglitch-esque thing. I loved it tho. Prodeus and Amid Evil look cool, haven't played em.

    Also of the top of my head: High Hell, Devil Daggers, Post Void, and Bunker Punks are some more games ya might wanna check out. The recent Wolfenstein games are worth mentioning too. Stay away from the Rise of the Triad reboot tho, it stunk.

    Honestly there's so many of theses dang boomer shooters I'm starting to get sick of em. I'm almost starting to long for the days of slow-paced cover-based shooters again.

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless Voice View Post
    I'm not saying I don't understand the mechanics of bunny-hopping, I'm saying that I don't understand the appeal.

    The fact that there's a bug that allows you to move incredibly fast by doing something ridiculous doesn't answer the question of why people like the bug and intentionally add it to other games, instead of wanting it fixed.
    For what it's worth, a movement glitch being exploited and then embraced by the community is what turned Tribes from a fairly generic team-based FPS into something unique. The developers then turned it into a core mechanic for the sequels.

    There's a niche for competitive games where basic movement involves a degree of skill- Titanfall is a good modern analogue, although that's deliberate rather than a bug.

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    I'm with NV on this one. I loved playing Quake 1 online in the early days before the movement tricks, clans, rocket arena, etc. And before the cheats became commonplace. Back then, before it became a competitive e-sport, it was just pure fun. After it got big though, I lost interest in playing on public servers. I still played on a LAN with friends or coworkers whenever I had the chance. Playing Q1 CtF and Painkeep on a LAN with friends or coworkers is the most fun I've ever had in gaming. When friends settled in the burbs and weren't into LAN parties anymore, one of us would still host a server occasionally so we could get together online. But the last time we did that was probably 2002?.

    After I gave up playing Q1 on public servers, I switched to Q2. It was more balanced, less tricks, less twitch, no cheats. But it was missing some of the raw energy from Q1. Team Fortress was also fun at first, but it quickly got to be too competitive. You really had to dedicate yourself to it.

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: under God's grace
    Quote Originally Posted by henke View Post
    Oh there's been a pile of 90's-inspired boomer shooters recently.
    Thanks henke! I gotta check out all those you mentioned. Devil Daggers looks so fine! More Quake than Quake

    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    When friends settled in the burbs and weren't into LAN parties anymore, one of us would still host a server occasionally so we could get together online. But the last time we did that was probably 2020?
    You are correct. In fact the last time you did that was tomorrow. I'll host a Quake server. We're friends now

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Somewhere
    Yeh I have huge nostalgia for the LAN days, had a group of good mates who would meet up at someones house almost weekly, stuff like q3, UT and BF1942. Good times.

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: under God's grace
    Any network geniuses here? I've got a TeleWell TW-EAV510 v2 ADSL-router. I need a public IP so I'm trying to set it to bridge my connection. When I do that, I get no IP from my ISP. However, shouldn't I at least get one IP? I can't host a Quake server without a public IP unless I set the router to do some tunneling magicka.

    Quote Originally Posted by PigLick View Post
    Yeh I have huge nostalgia for the LAN days, had a group of good mates who would meet up at someones house almost weekly, stuff like q3, UT and BF1942. Good times.
    Well hey, let's play Quake Can you host? I gotta run but I'm available later today if you're up for some deathmatch.

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    Bridging is for when you want to connect two routers together in a chain, usually when the first one is a modem-router, and the second is a high-feature "fancy" router.
    The first router, in bridging mode, basically acts as a single-device modem, and lets the second device do all the actual routing and control.

    You really do not want to expose your PC on the internet directly.

    Instead, you need to set up manual port-forwarding for this use case, or use a VPN service like Hamachi, ZeroTier, etc.

  18. #18
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless Voice View Post
    I'm not saying I don't understand the mechanics of bunny-hopping, I'm saying that I don't understand the appeal.

    The fact that there's a bug that allows you to move incredibly fast by doing something ridiculous doesn't answer the question of why people like the bug and intentionally add it to other games, instead of wanting it fixed.
    From the nature of your post, I get the impression you don't particularly want someone to explain it to you, but I'll try anyway.

    Why do people like it? Because it feels fantastic; there's a unique and elegant kinetic and mechanical satisfaction to skillfully strafe-jumping.

    "Bunny-hopping" is an inaccurate term that misrepresents the specific inputs involved. So set that term aside.

    For me, a large part of the appeal is the swish of your mousing hand as you strafe-jump. Imagine the fluid, rhythmic swishes of a music conductor's baton, with subtle variations made to account for subtle changes in dynamics and rhythm. This fluid, rhythmic swishing is what proper strafe-jumping feels like in your mousing hand, with subtle variations made to the swishing to account for the varying levels of speed required to make it over varying gulfs, hazards and heights.

    (The critical role of this mousing feel in its movement skill is also why in Quake games -- and only in Quake games -- I have Jump bound to the second mouse button rather than to a key on the keyboard.)

    I know it seems janky and odd when you first try to learn how to strafe-jump. I dismissed it at first, too. And yes, even Carmack wasn't crazy about it. But once you accept its comical origins and move beyond the learning curve, it just feels fantastic. It becomes second nature. This was a serendipitous bug.

    Sometimes when I haven't played any Quake game in a while, I'll load an empty deathmatch map offline just to feel that swift, fluid flow through the geometry.

    Unfortunately, it's not easy to learn, which may be why people are so dismissive of it. Because of the "bunny hopping" term, I suspect many people don't even realize that they haven't really learned it.

    I'm sure I could explain the mechanics of it to ten experienced gamers, and seven or eight of those experienced gamers (or more) probably couldn't pick it up at first. There's much, much more to it than just jumping over and over.

    But whatever. There you go.

    I know you can live an entirely happy and fulfilling life without ever discovering the fluid joy of strafe-jumping, but try not to sound outright dismissive of something people enjoy just because you don't understand it.

  19. #19
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: the Sheeple Pen
    You make the bunny hopping sound like a form of art. I played Quake back in the day (it was a bit disappointing after Doom and Duke3D) and was blissfully unaware of such thing. My only bunny-hopping experiences are from Thief: The Dark Project, although I'm not even sure if we're talking about the same thing. It felt rather silly, but I just had to do it when I got a chance, so I guess it was fun in a way. I think it'd be annoying in a multiplayer game though, seeing everyone bunny-hopping around...

  20. #20
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Yeah, I guess any niche skill or niche interest can sound silly when someone within that niche expresses their enthusiasm to someone outside of it. I think that's why I punctuated the end of my post with, "But whatever. There you go."

    As for "everyone bunny-hopping around" in a multiplayer game, well, I can't speak for all games, but in Quake strafe-jumping is usually employed more precisely. Skilled players aren't jumping constantly. It's a string of jumps here to accelerate down a hall to out-flank an opponent, a couple of jumps there to build just enough acceleration to make it over a wide gulf.

    Reading and anticipating your opponent's movements while misdirecting them from being able to read and anticipate your movements is a critical skill, and to pay attention to that stuff you can't always jump around like mad. In Duels (1v1), in particular, the sound of jumping can give away your position or the direction you're heading, so often times you may even avoid jumping.

    Also, certain powerful weapons, like the lightning gun, don't lend themselves to jumping, so you never see pro players jumping when attacking with it.

    Regardless of strafe-jumping, you should give the Quake custom mapping community a look. They're prolific and incredibly talented. Many currently employed and active AAA developers still release mods and maps for the original Quake. I would guess that even people who weren't crazy about the original Quake might be impressed by much of what the community produces these days.

  21. #21
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    This reminds me of how hard I roll my eyes when I see someone running diagonally in a Thief or SS2 video. Yeah you move like 10% faster but you also look like a fool doing it.

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    It's really quite a bit different than that with strafe-jumping in Quake, but I know better than to pick a fight with you, so bring on the eye rolls.

  23. #23
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    I think my point was more that, because bunny-hopping exists, and because it is effective, you are at a large disadvantage if you don't use it.

    So, if you don't like that kind of gameplay, you're crippling your ability to compete.


    Not that I really have any interest in competitive games these days, so my opinion on that might not matter. But it certainly annoyed me that most competitive multiplayer games devolve into who can pick the most effective/cheesy path (be it a movement style, weapon/item set, character), and abuse that most effectively, which in turn marginalises or negates a lot of the game's other content.


    ... I'll admit that I have been known to run diagonally in Thief occasionally, when wanting to travel large distances. Garrett moves really slowly, even when running.


    Also, while I'm not the biggest fan of Quake in general, I'd definitely second the custom map scene. Played some of recent maps a while back, and they had some great design.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless Voice View Post
    Not that I really have any interest in competitive games these days, so my opinion on that might not matter. But it certainly annoyed me that most competitive multiplayer games devolve into who can pick the most effective/cheesy path (be it a movement style, weapon/item set, character), and abuse that most effectively, which in turn marginalises or negates a lot of the game's other content.
    If you're competing or training for a competition, it would be folly to not chose the most optimal path to victory.

    Different people have different thresholds for when they become competetive. And most people have variable levels of interest in being competetive depending on the actual scenario.

    I know that if I were to play Deathmatch in Quake or UT, I'd do whatever I could to perform as well as possible (without cheats/hacks obviously), I'd try to figure out paths, pickup timings, what specific sounds indicate my opponents are doing and so on. But hand me just about any other multiplayer FPS game and you'd have to be very persuasive to get me to try out any kind of competetive mode.

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    Quote Originally Posted by Qooper View Post
    You are correct. In fact the last time you did that was tomorrow. I'll host a Quake server. We're friends now
    Sorry, I had to work yesterday. And today I'm cleaning house and preparing food because relatives are coming over. Tomorrow when I'm nursing my hang over I'll try to get Q1 installed and up again. I doubt I can host though. I seem to have forgotten the admin password to my firewall/IPS/IDS. Doh! If I can remember that I can whitelist a path to my home server/NAS and host a Quake server on it. If not I'll have to hard reset it and configure it from scratch, which is not something I want to take on near term.

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