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Thread: Mission by Type thread is being updated.... Your feedback would be appreciated

  1. #26
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: UK
    I think I agree with Galaer's point. Perhaps it is down to the use of "small" - everyone's definition of how small "small" is may differ?

    However, the term "5-minute wonder" says what it is on the tin! (I do feel anything that takes less than, say, 15 mins to complete, would fall under this term.) So, I do like a category that points out an FM is short - it is agreeing the terminology/definition I guess!

  2. #27
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    If we introduce a Demo section and include all the Drome Beauty Contest missions in that section that would reduce the number of 5 mins mission to about half of what the current list shows.

    And yes that 15-20 minute rule is rather semantic, it's impossible to have a definitive rule for what makes a mission a small mission, so lets think 'Can you finish in under 30 minutes', and no I would not include Sabotage in Eastport in the small section, general feelings once you have played the mission is the best guide to what should fit into that category, was it something that was really easy, bite sized mission that you could finish in your coffee break, but there will of course be exceptions, there always are.

    Maybe we should have Demo + 5 Minutes Wonders as well as Small Missions, that would accommodate your concerns, and keep the a section for missions that are described and renowned as demos.

  3. #28
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Here's my list of sewer missions, I've striked out those those that I would rather not include in any sewer section because they are just not significant enough, leaving approx 25 sewer missions, and I'm guessing you could remove some of those as well as a lot of them are not that significant, extensive maybe but not game critical.

    So are 25 missions a big enough group of missions to justify their own section? Or would those left on the list be justified in the underground section?

    Sewer Missions

    T1/TG
    Careless Hand, The..................................yes
    Chalice of Souls.......................................Yes, significant and large
    Dirty Money.............................................Possible. Not really important but memorable
    Short Sewer.............................................Yes. escape the sewers mission
    Station to Station.....................................Yes. escape the sewers mission
    Trial by Night...........................................No. extensive but only really a way to get across town.
    Vigil, The................................................No. not huge or important



    T2 Missions
    About Rats, Spiders and an Escape..............No. Too small
    Among Two Storms....................................yes, important
    Ashen Age Part 1.......................................No. extensive but only really a way to get across town.
    Ashcourt...................................................No, it's supposedly set in the sewers but really there are no one as we know of them

    Benny's Dead............................................Hugely memorable so yes
    Better Tomorrow, A....................................Yes, hugely memorable
    Book of Prophecy, The 2 :Hidden City............No, only small at start
    Broken Gears.............................................Yes
    Cathedral of St. Vincent...............................not important
    Chain of Events..........................................no

    Cistern, The...............................................yes, significant at start of mission
    Drymian Codex,The.....................................yes, significant at start of mission
    Durant.......................................................no
    Evil Thievery...............................................Yes
    Evirath's Misery............................................No
    Good Samaritan, The....................................No, not massive or really important
    Greenbay....................................................No

    Greyquarter Heist, The.................................Yes, small but memorable
    Hidden Agenda............................................No, but do lead to large underground complex which some may consider to be part of sewers.
    Horns of Canzo pt2: The Dragons Cla.............Yes, significant
    Horror in St. Urbain.....................................Yes
    In dubio pro Garrett.....................................No, big but only there to get into the mansion.
    Into the Odd...............................................Yes.
    Konkurrenten..............................................Yes, extensive
    L'Arsene......................................................No
    Lord Alan's Basement....................................No

    Mistrz: Demo...............................................Yes (just)
    Moth to a Flame...........................................No
    Mountain Maya.............................................No

    Night in Rocksbourg, A: Discovery...................Yes
    Old Friend, An..............................................No, not really important or extensive
    Out for A Revenge.........................................No, not really important or extensive

    Overlords Ending............................................Yes
    Schizophrenica.............................................No
    Shadow of Lord Rothchest, The.......................No

    Shadows of Eidolon.......................................Yes
    Sir William's Keep.........................................No, not big and only at start of mission.
    Sluggs Fan Missions......................................Yes, mission 3 is an escape from the sewers mission
    Smuggler's Request, A..................................Possible, reasonable size but not important
    Strange Meeting...........................................No, only at start of mission, less than 5% of gameplay
    Strife Campaign...........................................Yes, mission 2 set in sewers
    Thieves Guild.................................................Yes
    TiC Part I: Conspiracies in the Dark.................No, very small part of map
    Viktor Gaspar...............................................Yes
    What Lies Below...........................................Yes
    When Still....................................................Yes
    Last edited by fortuni; 9th Jul 2021 at 06:39.

  4. #29
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    I'm fine with classification of Demo + 5 Minute Wonders. Also how about Exploration section? Into this section would go mission where you explore without any danger. Some Cardia's missions allow that like Melancholy in Porto or FTM Life (there are usually 3 hostile AI, but they are never any problem in these huge cities). Ricebug and Christine when they submitted big campaigns, they sometimes include city mission where you can observe common people life. For example 1st mission of Raven Creek. Also I'm not talking about small room missions or camvator missions.

    Also to your Sewer list you can add Overlord's Ending. Since it's based on Thieves Guild, main attraction are sewers.

  5. #30
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Exploration doesn't grab me, after all aren't all Thief missions about exploring? You might have to find a key or solve a puzzle to get to the next area, and again it's other category that would be a nightmare to decide what should go in and what should stay out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaer View Post
    Also to your Sewer list you can add Overlord's Ending. Since it's based on Thieves Guild, main attraction are sewers.
    Added + added Thieves Guild T2 Conversion

    That makes 29 missions in sewer section, big enough to justify it's own section and arguably too may to add to underground section that probably is stretching already to be as big as city section or mansion section.
    Last edited by fortuni; 9th Jul 2021 at 06:38.

  6. #31
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2020
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by Galaer View Post
    You are incorrect with this one. Small missions usually are longer than 15 min. Usually you can beat them under 1 hour (30-45 min usually). And there is actually big difference between 45 min long mission and 5 min long mission. For example: Sabotage in Eastport is small, but not short mission. It took me around 1 hour to beat it the first time. Unless you are gonna change current list. Also current 5 Minute Wonder list isn't small, so if added to Small section, it will make large list and don't you want to avoid that?
    You seem to misunderstand. Missions we put under "small" are missions that dont take longer than 15 minutes, so its the same as the 5 minutes wonder only with the difference that we extended the time span to 15 minutes.

  7. #32
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    I get where Galaer is coming from, he thinks really very small (tiny) and those missions you can complete in your lunch break, but are significantly more fleshed out than 1 objective and 250g loot.

    Personally I don’t really care what the criteria is 5/10/20/30 mins but I don’t think we need more than 2 section covering the smaller missions, so Demo + 5 minutes wonders as well as small missions (approx 20-30 mins) will do me fine.

  8. #33
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by Samantha1 View Post
    You seem to misunderstand. Missions we put under "small" are missions that dont take longer than 15 minutes, so its the same as the 5 minutes wonder only with the difference that we extended the time span to 15 minutes.
    I think it's you who misunderstood. I indicated missions to ghost on my list by using Short category and my casual run in most of them takes usually 30-45 min (without searching for hard to find keys or switches). That's why I always thought that Small/Short represents missions to beat under 1 hour. I was really surprised when you mentioned that this section should have 15-20 min long missions. Of course, these kind of missions happens on the list, but a lot of them are twice or thrice longer than that. Unless you are planning to make revision of this list and only put 15-20 min long missions into it. But for now it's not the case.

  9. #34
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Quote Originally Posted by Galaer View Post
    Unless you are planning to make revision of this list and only put 15-20 min long missions into it. But for now it's not the case.
    That's exactly what we are doing, Samantha and I have gone through every mission with a fine tooth comb and discussed every possible category, we think we have done a reasonably good and accurate job, but of course there will always be differing opinions as to what goes into where.

  10. #35
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Well, good luck with that. By the way, are you planning to create new thread for new lists or are you planning to edit existing lists?

  11. #36
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Editing the current lists would be a nightmare, too much coding in there, one mistake and it can do you head in for hours whilst you track down which ‘>’ or ‘/‘ you’ve accidentally deleted, then again making new lists is even more of a headache.

    I’m promised myself 8 years ago I would never update this thread ever again…..

  12. #37
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2015
    Location: Hungary
    Heyoo All

    I put my 2 cents here.

    Removing City+Mansion was the first thing that came in my mind when I've read the title, so totally agreed
    Also Phobic (Spiders) is something I also think unnecessary, but I can respect the intent of keeping it. Personally I like spiders, also I don't really mind if they're present or missing from an FM. But putting that aside, that category is seriously lacking. There's huge amount of FMs with numerous spiders but excluded from that list.
    For sewers, I'd propose keeping that category, but as far as I've seen, you've already come to that conclusion.

    The others you propose to remove I'm mostly agreeing with, maybe with the exception of Mountains, not that it's a large or significant type, but definitely interesting and unique.


    I put here my idea. Maybe it's stupid, maybe it's pointless, but in case if you like it (and/or think it's a viable, good idea), it will worth it
    Maybe putting labels behind certain FM entries. That way, we could bypass some of the minor (but worth mentioning) types like Mountains.
    Also it could solve the spider phobia problem if the point is to warn arachnophobic players about spiders in the mission, and not keeping that as an exact separate category itself.
    I mean something like this:
    T2---Screenshots---Download---FM name---Mountains, Spiders
    T2---Screenshots---Download---FM name---
    T2---Screenshots---Download---FM name---
    T2---Screenshots---Download---FM name---Spiders
    T2---Screenshots---Download---FM name---(Special stuff that would get a category if there were 9 more FMs like this)

    Of course keeping these down to very few generic ones, and a few special for things like mountains, to avoid overcluttering entries (if this isn't already overcluttering)

  13. #38
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Phobic (Spiders) is something I also think unnecessary, but I can respect the intent of keeping it. Personally I like spiders, also I don't really mind if they're present or missing from an FM. But putting that aside, that category is seriously lacking. There's huge amount of FMs with numerous spiders but excluded from that list
    I agree that section is frighteningly small bearing in mind how many mission have spiders in them. I've only ever put a mission in the section if there are an excessive number of spiders as there is no way we can put every mission in this one section, that would be ridiculous. I would be grateful for people to suggest extra missions for this section, arachnophobes considerations would be most appreciated, so please suggest other spider top heavy missions and I'll get the added.


    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    sewers, I'd propose keeping that category, but as far as I've seen, you've already come to that conclusion.
    No, not yet, still hoping to get other opinions as to whether we should bundle these missions into the underground section or have a separate sewer section.

    Mountains Honestly I can't remember the last time I placed a mission in this section, it is so off my radar screen when I think which categories to choose, and yes it's nice to have a pretty vista but when choosing the entries I'm thinking game play, not skyboxes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    I put here my idea. Maybe putting labels behind certain FM entries.
    T2---Screenshots---Download---FM name---Mountains, Spiders
    T2---Screenshots---Download---FM name---
    T2---Screenshots---Download---FM name---
    T2---Screenshots---Download---FM name---Spiders
    T2---Screenshots---Download---FM name---(Special stuff that would get a category if there were 9 more FMs like this)
    Your idea is similar to Galaer's
    As for me I would like to see list of every mission and near names put what type it represents. For example: Insanity Crescendo (mansion, undead). Right now player choosing mission from one section has no idea what else is awaiting for him. On example of Insanity Crescendo - player chose this mission, because he likes playing mansion missions, but dislike undead missions. So in 1st half he has fun, but then undead half of mission starts and suddenly he hates it. So just playing based on this thread, you may encounter some unpleasant surprises.
    The problem with your idea is most peoples screens are not 2 meters wide, if you were going to list 10-15 different categories at the end of end mission the thread would seriously look a mess, at least at the moment every mission is on just one line. I'm thinking when we do post the new thread I could post a pdf of which categories every mission is in, then you guys could use that to check what else are the main aspects of the mission, but that would only give you 4 other selections, but honestly it's just as easy to use the search function at the top of he page, rather than scrolling through 50 pages of a spreadsheet.

  14. #39
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    I was actually thinking about separate list with all missions and next to them all types. Since all links would be in MbT thread, there would be no need to put it into this list. Besides I'm sure that all people here know how to find FMs on their own and if they don't, they should visit Mega Sticky thread for links to download sites. Well, list in pdf will work too.

  15. #40
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2015
    Location: Hungary
    In what my idea differs from Galaer's that I'd only include a few very specific things as a regular. Not to spam the topic with common categories such as "mansion" and "city" labels. Those should get their own list and be represented there anyways

    I mean marking only those specific things such us phobic stuff: spiders and maybe undead. Things some players tend to strongly dislike and thus avoid. Not common and more or less neutral ones such as hammerites, thieves etc.
    Other than that, only the rarely used, special and niche categories like mountains, swamps and such could get labels like this in my opinion. Mainly things that would deserve to have their own category in the listing but said category would be too short to have a point getting included. Usually no more than one (at most two) fits properly a mission of these categories anyways.
    Of course this could be still too much to overclutter the thread.


    About spiders. A few missions that include a significant amount of spiders and come into my mind:
    - The Seven Sisters -- there are some in the first few nights, but most importantly they're used to kill the Black Sister in night 3.
    - Dracula Campaign -- features spider tunnels the player must pass through in one of the missions
    - The Greyquarter Heist -- there's a spider infested area in the sewers (though it is still possible to complete the mission without ever entering that area)
    - Cataclysmic Revelations (at least the campaign version) -- creepy evil undead/demon spiders

  16. #41
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    Thanks for the feedback.

    A few points for information. The current thread is cumbersome, a pain in the arse and the database hates it. Whenever a new mission comes out, fortuni has it formatted and ready for pasting in about 10 minutes and then usually has to wait a few weeks for me to paste it in. Sometimes the new entries cause the OP links to lead to the wrong category and then Admin has to sort it out. It's not technically feasible to revamp the thread without removing it from this forum whilst it's being updated. I have tried to contact kamyk about updating but have received no reply.

    The most sensible option is to create a new thread under fortuni's name so he no longer has to wait for me to do the pasting in and can keep it properly updated. The new thread will be entitled 'kamyk's Mission by Type thread. The old one will be closed and removed from the Links thread so will still be available for people to check on e.g. 'Spiders' in old missions if wanted. I have suggested fortuni mentions Spiders in his Brief Summaries thread for the benefit of those who are phobic. He may well ignore that.

    For the record, I have done none of the work involved so far, it's all been done by fortuni and Samantha and I thank them very much for their efforts.

  17. #42
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2015
    Location: Hungary
    Just a technical question:
    Maybe, really maybe if this is not an utter blasphemy and possible in this forum engine. Could it be possible to add some sort of restricted mod access to a select few people who tend to this thread?
    Though I'd presume it's impossible to give mod access to a single thread, so most probably I already answered my own question.

    Creating a new one under Fortuni's name would still exclude anyone else actually contributing to this thread and not being a mod him/herself. Though that would help a lot already, as he's the main contributor besides Samantha anyways.

  18. #43
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Could it be possible to add some sort of restricted mod access to a select few people who tend to this thread?
    No, not possible that's why all I've been able to do for the last 8 years is prepare the missions selections and then Nickie would paste those selections into the thread.

    Trouble with giving more than 1 or 2 people input to such a thread is the old adage 'Too many Cooks.....'

    Samantha and I had some serious differing opinions with some of the mission classifications as it was anyway, so giving another 4 or 5 people an input to the category selections at this stage and I suspect you would never see the project come to a conclusion.

    I will probably post a pdf of the mission selections when the new thread is posted, giving you guys the opportunity to suggest amendments then, but lets not get bogged down in differing selections at this stage.
    Last edited by fortuni; 13th Jul 2021 at 06:36.

  19. #44
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2020
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Just a technical question:
    Maybe, really maybe if this is not an utter blasphemy and possible in this forum engine. Could it be possible to add some sort of restricted mod access to a select few people who tend to this thread?
    Though I'd presume it's impossible to give mod access to a single thread, so most probably I already answered my own question.

    Creating a new one under Fortuni's name would still exclude anyone else actually contributing to this thread and not being a mod him/herself. Though that would help a lot already, as he's the main contributor besides Samantha anyways.
    Ive always wondered why they dont give moderator rights to fortuni. Hes doing the most here to keep the forum updated,- just look at all the great lootlists and dml fixes he makes. Also keeping the MbyT thread updated, which is a huge detour having to post the links in a private thread and having to wait for nickie to copy paste them in the real thread. Which is btw also extra work for nickie

  20. #45
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Could it be possible to add some sort of restricted mod access to a select few people who tend to this thread?
    Though I'd presume it's impossible to give mod access to a single thread, so most probably I already answered my own question.
    Yup. I already tried that one and it's not technically possible. This is our best solution for the time being as the thread can't be easily revamped anyway.

  21. #46
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Taking into account the feedback given and the discussions I’ve had with both Nicki and Samantha I feel the best way forward is to include and remove the following from the new thread

    Demos + 5 minute wonders there’s about 27 demos atm and I can classify about 60 missions as 5 minute wonders (5-10 mins), leaving the number of small mission that can be finished in 30 minutes to be approx 120, so that make it a reasonable equal distribution 90/120

    City and Mansion we will keep this section, atm we have 145 city missions and 120 mansion missions, and I think I can put about 40 missions into a City + Mansion section making the other sections more manageable.

    Sewers as it appears that no one really cares about this section one way or other and I really can’t think many missions in which the sewers are game critical, yes memorable sometimes but not so important they are the most dominant part of the mission, we will remove this section entirely.

    Non Garrett there appears to be a strong affinity with this section, so it will stay.

    Water remove

    Phobic / Spiders it would appear that not many people think this is essential for the MbyT thread, but a lot of people want to be warned of the existence of spiders in FM, so I’ll take up Nickie’s suggestion and remove this from the thread but draw up a list of missions with a significant number of spiders in them, then post a link to that pdf or post and include that link in the new MbyT thread allowing players to check in advance which mission contain loads of spiders.
    Last edited by fortuni; 14th Jul 2021 at 00:55.

  22. #47
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2008
    Location: Deutschland/Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by Bosh View Post
    Demos - I'd personally rather know if an FM is a demo, as I don't want to play these.
    I second that, not because I don't want to play them but because they often are very helpful for those few taffers who build FMs.
    My FM campaigns Garrett's Young Years XTra, Reunion With Basso
    Want your upcoming FM translated in foreign languages?

  23. #48
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: UK
    Good point zappenduster! (I still don't wanna play them but fair enough )

    @fortuni - all looks good. Again, thank you all for your hard work.
    Last edited by Bosh; 14th Jul 2021 at 07:13. Reason: Blah!

  24. #49
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Most of the demos that Zappenduster is probably referring to will not be in the Mby thread, the demos that show mappers how new gizmos work I have mainly left out of this thead, I'm only including a few that are big enough and fun enough to actually count as mini missions in their own right.

    As for Spiders, what about this as a solution: Remove Spiders from the MbyT thread but have a column in the spreadsheet of mission classifications letting players know how many spiders there are in each mission (big spiders/sewer spiders), that would give arachnophobes complete control over which missions to choose to play.

    Sample Spreadsheet
    Last edited by fortuni; 14th Jul 2021 at 12:24.

  25. #50
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: UK
    Quote Originally Posted by fortuni View Post
    Sample Spreadsheet
    Well, that was easy enough to check out. And the spider column is obvious - very easy to weed out FMs with eight-legged critters.

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