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Thread: Russia invades Ukraine

  1. #226
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: melon labneh
    Quote Originally Posted by demagogue View Post
    I'm not so worried about them actually being used so much as things getting dysfunctional colored by the nominal threat that they could be used ...
    I'm genuinely worried about them, I see a non-zero chance that with enough internal support and backed into a corner, Putin could use the time-tested technique of planting a nonexistent menace such as NATO chemical/bioweapon labs or militias ready to detonate a dirty bomb on Ukrainian territory to justify a reaction so disproportionate and terrifying that western support and intervention would instantly freeze.

    I truly hope I'm exaggerating the threat.

  2. #227
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Well, someone realizes it's the same situation of the Romanov family and old russian nobility.
    Someone in those "patriotic" (the fastists are the others!!!111) circle like Izborskii simply wants the shameless daughter (Ukraine) back. She has a NAZI lover! And american JUNKIES friends!

    NATO (real) "provocations" are the perfectly "West-like" excuses.

    Lavrov today: "european patriot missiles are very dangerous, they can take down european aircrafts too if misused at the end of the war" .............................what END? There's NO END other than Russia choking and nuclear answer.
    Last edited by lowenz; 10th Mar 2022 at 08:20.

  3. #228
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Quote Originally Posted by Briareos H View Post
    to detonate a dirty bomb on Ukrainian territory to justify a reaction so disproportionate and terrifying that western support and intervention would instantly freeze.
    That's possible in the next weeks or months. Or something like the plane (Malaysia Airlines 17) in 2014.
    More and more weeks and months pass and sanctions destroy russian next 100 years the "solution" is not a dirty nuclear bomb as a trick, it's the something more and NOT as a trick.
    Last edited by lowenz; 10th Mar 2022 at 08:24.

  4. #229
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Moyer View Post
    Even if the civilian leadership agreed to use them, it doesn't guarantee that the military will follow through:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov
    That's a real hero of Russia, not today imperialist "patriots".....parrots.
    And like real heroes let dying poor and alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by demagogue View Post
    Who's going to agree to give up nuclear weapons after something like this?
    Who's going to agree to *NOT* use them if they're the *only real* deterrent.....it's self-contradictory. It's an elegant lie.
    Last edited by lowenz; 10th Mar 2022 at 09:02.

  5. #230
    rachel
    Guest
    Goddammit, merge your fucking posts, dude.

  6. #231
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Quote Originally Posted by rachel View Post
    Goddammit, merge your fucking posts, dude.
    Seconded.

  7. #232
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    Quote Originally Posted by faetal View Post
    Seconded.
    Thirded.

  8. #233
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Fourthed (.....)

    Just remember to not use western "geopolitical" approach to the Russia-Ukraine question or to Russia sanction-driven cornering.

  9. #234
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    I've re-read your last four posts, lowenz, and frankly I have very little idea of what you mean by any of them.

  10. #235
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2020
    I'm watching an interview with Steven Colbert's Late Show and one of the US's Russian ambassador from the Obama days.

    This has got me thinking there are very few endgames here for Russia to extricate themselves from the mess. One possible endgame would be a coup or assassination of Putin, then whoever takes over sues for peace and normalization of foreign relations. It's quite possible, it depends on how expendable Putin himself is to his handlers.

  11. #236
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Cipheron View Post
    It's quite possible, it depends on how expendable Putin himself is to his handlers.
    He's completely expendable by now, but surrounded by abject cowards – the result of years' worth of artificial selection.

  12. #237
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    I've re-read your last four posts, lowenz, and frankly I have very little idea of what you mean by any of them.
    Lavrov himself today has said that the main issue is not even "NATO bases", is *ANY* kind of military organisation present on Ucraine soil going beyond the simple police (that Russia is very happy to provide, like many other things) West or non-West related.
    And our sanctions meant to "destroy" Russia (financial default) are not even considered an issue, just an unfortunate contingency.

  13. #238
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    There's another thing I've been noticing that was Cold War-esque I thought. It's just a vibe right now, and maybe hard to perfectly articulate, but it's like Russia is doing a good job of bringing the old band back together in their familiar roles.

    In the US context it's most noticeable among Republicans. (Of course, they're the most easily swayed by events and emotional manipulation for good or bad. =V ) You have to remember during Trump's 2nd impeachment trial, the GOP was vilifying the Ukraine gov't as the most corrupt gov't out there (because they supported Biden), and the whole hearing, if you were watching and recall, was on the extortion scheme Trump was waging against it to support his candidacy, which the GOP was rabidly in favor of. It wasn't even a matter of denying it; they were lashing Ukraine for the purposes of good. That was only last January! Fast forward hardly a single year later and suddenly the Ukrainian gov't & president are brave freedom fighters, vets are going over to fight as volunteers... It just shows how ridiculous their prior vitriol was.

    Another way I saw the vibe cropping up is the way Americans generally talking about Europeans. I mean I'm from Texas. They wear their disgust for especially Continental Europe on their sleeve, France above all,* but even the limeys are suspect, Brexit notwithstanding. But recently I've heard scatterings here and there the old rap that the West has to stand together on this and "we're there for you Europe", like we've always been. It's heartening to see in the sense that good old democracy-loving countries haven't really been all-that for democracy and liberalism in a long time. But it's a weird volte-face to see happen so suddenly & completely.

    The third way is the developing world taking up so explicitly neutrality, the ole non-aligned movement, with an air of being more than a little peeved the west is plotzing over this war unlike any war in the developing world they never lost sleep over.

    I don't have much commentary to give. It was just an interesting thing I've noticed recently.
    It does make one wonder just what kind of world are we entering into anyway?
    Moving into something so old makes it also feel like moving into something really new and unknown.


    * Okay, Poland has always been the big exception. There's some bizarre mutual affection there that's I guess the aftertaste of the Solidarity days? Not that that stopped the Polish jokes...

  14. #239
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Ex minister (of energy) of Russian Federation in 2002, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Milov

    Last edited by lowenz; 11th Mar 2022 at 16:23.

  15. #240
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2020
    From that video and others, it seems pretty likely to me that Putin's plan was to shock and awe the west by taking over Ukraine in like 72 hours. If they had managed to pull that off, even if it was by the skin of their teeth then it would be a fait accompli then the west would have had to negotiate with Putin with the myth of Russian military supremacy intact, and the Russians probably assumed this would have a chilling effect on neighboring nations thinking of working with the EU and NATO.

    Right about now Putin would have expected to have whatever puppet government they've been grooming in the wings in place, and all the pro-Russian states around the word would have recognized them as the legitimate Ukrainian government, and that puppet plus the Russians would have put pressure on other ex-Warsaw Pact nations for recognition. Plus of course the leaked maps showing some units invading the Moldovan separatist territory, to do Ukraine mk II but against a smaller nation.

    This has backfired big time.
    Last edited by Cipheron; 11th Mar 2022 at 17:52.

  16. #241
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    72 hours is logistically impossible with an instant surrender too :|

    Your hopes are too high, he will never stop.

  17. #242
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2020
    Quote Originally Posted by lowenz View Post
    72 hours is logistically impossible with an instant surrender too :|

    Your hopes are too high, he will never stop.
    I'm not sure what you mean by "hopes" there. I was just outlining Putin's likely thought process behind the invasion. I never said he would stop. What I said was that he'd hope to quickly declare victory over Ukraine, then use that to pressure other smaller nations to fall in line. That could definitely *include* other invasions, but bullying is always more effective and cheaper. Ukraine was to be the example for the rest of them. Which backfired.

    Basically they hoped to quickly seize the capital. That's not the whole country. You only need to take the airports, government buildings and TV stations, and you can plausibly say you "won" and control the nation and have your puppet government immediately declare themselves as the legitimate government. This is do-able to declare "victory" within 72 hours, and you then do most of the war as a "mop-up operation" while propaganda from the new puppet Ukrainian government to drown out any information from the remnants of the old government.

    But they screwed up because they didn't manage to take and hold Antonov Airport in Hostomel on the morning of Feb 24 thus couldn't get supply and fresh reinforcements in by air. That was critical to quickly capturing key facilities in Kyiv and declaring a quick victory.

    So I said these things backfired for Putin's plan. But at no point did I say he'd *stop* because his plan didn't work. Right now he's not working from any playbook so we can't see what the endgame is. Putin doesn't even know. This is getting to the point of the Street Fighter movie and Putin is M. Bison. He'll threaten take the whole world down with him if it extends his survival.
    Last edited by Cipheron; 11th Mar 2022 at 18:28.

  18. #243
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    The historical parallel that crosses my mind right now is Stalingrad. A lot of Russia's forces are getting inadequate supplies, if any. The sensible thing to do would be to fall back and establish a defensible front line. But Putin won't allow that (and the mud ain't helpin'). The "big convoy" is dispersing into the countryside. People are positing some plan to encircle Kyiv, and that's certainly on Russia's mind. And there's the promise of getting some relief from Belarus. But I suspect what they're actually doing right now is looking for food.

  19. #244
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Hopes about "reading" Putin's plans/intentions and deduce "backfired, bitch!"

    Ukrainians and russians have fought for 8 years, Putin's so stupid to think he could just walk in Kiev/Kyiv?

    He's preparing something more destructive and all you see now is just the prelude (demagogue's theory is good)

  20. #245
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Leave it to the demagogues to know how to read the other demagogues. =L

    He's backed into a corner without an easy way out.
    In that sense, the idea that things didn't go as planned and he didn't get his quick victory doesn't necessarily bode well.

    If it is like history, then he still has sheer numerical superiority in the long run and every incentive to keep squeezing his own resources until they do they job, which sounds awful for everybody involved.

    --------------------------------------

    Edit: Interesting blog post. I don't want to be too US-centric, but I think what it's talking about may be relevant to right-wing movements in every country.

    Source: https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/...o-the-american
    It's behind a paywall, but the text is below anyway.

    (Also @lowenz, this is how you double-post. )

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Sullivan
    Putin’s Russia, like Orban’s Hungary, appealed to many post-liberal conservatives in the West for obvious reasons. Part of it was the shamelessness of the strongmen’s ethnically-homogeneous nationalism, compared with what was seen as the simpering, multicultural globalism of EU types; part was hatred of Obama, who was always deemed weak in contrast with, er, anyone; and part was a more amorphous but nonetheless profound view of Putin and Orban as cultural traditionalists, standing up to Western decadence, as it staggers into its Drag Queen Story Hour hellscape. For besieged social conservatives and Christianists in America, Putin loomed like some phantasm of strange hope. Steve Bannon summed it up: “Putin ain’t woke. He’s anti-woke.” Congressman Madison Cawthorn took it further: “Remember that the Ukrainian government is incredibly corrupt, and it is incredibly evil, and it has been pushing woke ideologies.” That plucky little Zelensky, speaking live to the British House of Commons as bombs rained down on his country’s cities? An “incredibly evil” “thug.” Our old friend Dinesh D’Souza, in his usual temperate style, sees the Democrats as posing “a far greater threat to our freedom and safety than Putin.” And Bannon is still urging his minions to give “zero dollars to Ukraine,” even as the corpses of children lie on the streets. There’s an alt-right edginess to this moral perversity.

    And over the years, this drumbeat of love for the Russian dictator shifted the views of many grassroots Republicans. In the wake of Trump’s personal infatuation with Putin, the murderer’s favorability among Republicans jumped from 10 percent in 2014 to 37 percent by December 2016. Until as recently as January this year, “62 percent of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents considered Vladimir Putin a stronger leader than Joe Biden.” That’s the primrose path down which the GOP led its supporters — seeing Putin as a more legitimate president than Biden.

    The last two weeks, to put it mildly, have pummeled this narrative. It’s happened in a couple of ways. The first is that there really is no legitimate defense — even at CPAC, the fetid armpit of the Trump right — of sending troops and tanks into a neighboring country to teach it a lesson in submission to Mother Russia. Putin didn’t even use his “little green men” to deny accountability this time. If you’re Bannon, you can still try and wing it, but the sheer sight of bombed hospitals, murdered children, homeless seniors, and mortar explosions in residential neighborhoods tends to shape public opinion overnight.

    Not even Tucker Carlson has been able to muster up enough shrill bullshit on that one — which is why his show this week has been a hathos-filled, must-watch spectacle, trying recently to advance Russian propaganda about alleged US-funded “bioweapons” in Ukraine. Was Fauci behind it all? Stay tuned! Yes, you can still make a credible and legitimate argument that the West mishandled Russia in the recent past, and bears some responsibility for the mess. Listen to Mearsheimer for that case. But all of that is now simply blasted away by the facts and visuals of a sudden, brutal, unprovoked invasion, justified by a deranged rant about Russian imperial destiny.

    Secondly, and perhaps most important, Putin is failing. He looks weak. The visual of a vast, stalled, vulnerable convoy of trucks on its way — or not — to Kyiv is now a metaphor for Putin’s presidency. The world is currently mocking the decrepitude and amateurishness of the Russian military. We look set for a long bloody struggle to gain some kind of control over Ukraine, followed by an even longer and bloodier insurgency. This “canny” and “savvy” mastermind appears to have sent an unprepared, ill-equipped, misinformed, over-extended army into a massive country it cannot even begin to control let alone occupy. Not exactly “genius.”
    ------------------------------

    Edit: Triple post!

    Last edited by demagogue; 12th Mar 2022 at 08:33.

  21. #246
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Fauci GLOBAL Mastermind is really the equivalent of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geppetto_(Fables)

  22. #247
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    UK comedian Jonathan Pie talks about Putin's aggression from the UK perspective:


  23. #248
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    https://twitter.com/LauraWalkerKC/st...60905262280707

    The Fifth Service — or, as it’s officially named, the Operational Information and International Relations Service — oversees the FSB’s communications with foreign partners, including with U.S. government agencies.

    It’s also home to the infamous Department of Operational Information (DOI), which handles the FSB’s foreign intelligence work.

    After the “color revolutions” ousted a number of pro-Kremlin leaders in the post-Soviet space in the early 2000s, this bureau was given the new task of doing everything in its power to keep these countries in Russia’s “sphere of influence.”

    It was the Fifth Service that was responsible for providing Vladimir Putin with information about political developments in Ukraine in the leadup to the invasion.

    And after two weeks of war, it now appears that Putin has finally realized that he was misled: afraid of angering the Russian leader, the Fifth Service simply told him what he wanted to hear.
    Looks like Putin might have been better served getting his intelligence from the shoddy remake of The Italian Job:


  24. #249
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Not only London, here in Italy we got plenty of russian oligarchs villas and yachts. And I mean A LOT.
    Just Melnichenko's one seized today is worth 500 millions euros and it's merely a toy.

    Imagine how much is invested in weapons.....



    He's simply right.
    Last edited by lowenz; 12th Mar 2022 at 15:39.

  25. #250
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by lowenz View Post
    Imagine how much is invested in weapons.....
    Imagine how much is not invested in weapons. How much necessary equipment is sold off. How many inspections are stamped as passed for aging and non-functional equipment.

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