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Thread: Russia invades Ukraine

  1. #1351
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Quote Originally Posted by lowenz View Post
    (and no, I don't admire Nixon policies but he was right, but being an american he didn't understand how russians don't have the freedom notion of americans, they're not interested in that kind of "constitutional" freedom and surely hyper-liberism of the Eltsin era ruined every possibility to inject that notion)
    I've been noticing those Nixon Foundation videos lately. The guy had his corrupt side, but by later Republican standards he was pretty reasonable even for domestic policy (he favored universal health care IIRC), but he was particularly thoughtful about international affairs, especially (famously) in dealing with the Soviets & China, although I think he clearly crossed some red lines, some of which might amount to crimes against humanity, like the bombing in Cambodia, and others just grossly inhumane like ignoring the crisis in Bangladesh.

    His stories about meeting with different world leaders or his role in things happening in the world are amazing to listen to.

    ...

    On what's happening in Russia, I'm annoyed in both directions... Annoyed with people saying Russia had the terrorist attack coming or even deserved it. I could believe there was gross negligence that contributed to it and it'd be nice if that led to some accountability. But civilians, even if they support a dick, never deserve violence, and collective punishment is always wrong full stop. But I'm also annoyed how Putin is already exploiting it to bad ends, especially implausibly roping Ukraine into it unfairly.
    Last edited by demagogue; 24th Mar 2024 at 03:54.

  2. #1352
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: under God's grace
    No reasonable person can be happy about the ISIS terrorists butchering russian civilians in cold blood. All loss of civilian life is tragic. The terrorist attack was almost as brutal as Hamas' attack on Israel.

    Roman did a video on the topic:
    Last edited by Qooper; 24th Mar 2024 at 05:50.

  3. #1353
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Death penalty returning to Russia.

    Someone could say "All according to the plan".....Putin is more and more PalpUtin....


  4. #1354
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: under God's grace
    ISIS has claimed that they were the ones behind the terrorist attack. putin says no, it was Ukraine. It took the russian security force more than an hour to respond to the terrorist attack, even though the main base belonging to the main directorate of their federal national guard troop service was almost next to the theater, only 5min away. Take it from here, Jake Broe:


  5. #1355
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2013
    Quote Originally Posted by lowenz View Post
    Death penalty returning to Russia.
    Unlikely. There really is no point formalising it; it's applied freely as it is. You've probably seen the condition that the four captured sheep-fuckers were brought to court in. They'll be dead within a couple of months, death penalty or no death penalty.

  6. #1356
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Quote Originally Posted by nemyax View Post
    Unlikely. There really is no point formalising it; it's applied freely as it is. You've probably seen the condition that the four captured sheep-fuckers were brought to court in. They'll be dead within a couple of months, death penalty or no death penalty.
    Not for those 4, but conveniently applied to others.

  7. #1357
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2013
    They didn't need the death penalty to kill Navalny or Prigozhin, or any of the Lukoil top managers.

  8. #1358
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: The other Derry
    Quote Originally Posted by Qooper View Post
    ISIS has claimed that they were the ones behind the terrorist attack. putin says no, it was Ukraine. It took the russian security force more than an hour to respond to the terrorist attack, even though the main base belonging to the main directorate of their federal national guard troop service was almost next to the theater, only 5min away. Take it from here, Jake Broe:

    Trying to blame Ukraine for this is farcical, but the commentators who suggest this was an FSB false flag operation disgust me.

  9. #1359
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Quote Originally Posted by nemyax View Post
    They didn't need the death penalty to kill Navalny or Prigozhin, or any of the Lukoil top managers.
    No, but if you want to avoid grey areas and be "respectable" (to China and other global players) you need a law.
    Like the U.S.

  10. #1360
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2009
    Location: thiefgold.com
    If only this atrocity could be the wake up call for Russia to crush Wahhabism once and for all; but it was too much to hope for from a criminal regime

  11. #1361
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: The other Derry
    Quote Originally Posted by lowenz View Post
    No, but if you want to avoid grey areas and be "respectable" (to China and other global players) you need a law.
    Like the U.S.
    I wouldn't project western values on China's leadership. I don't think China cares whether Russia is respectable or not. Russian expansionism is a useful tool for China, as long as it doesn't extend to Asia, because it diverts our resources to the defense of Europe while China builds up for its own expansionist push in Asia. I doubt Russia's other allies care either.

  12. #1362
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2013
    Azaran
    The regime is scared shitless of the population's vulgar racism getting out of control. That's why they are doing their damnedest to sweep the Islamist nature of the attack under the rug. In their desperation, they are trying to pin this on Ukraine like the irredeemable shiteaters they are. I hope they realise how their audience feels about those who cover up for ISIS.

  13. #1363
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2020
    Rather than something more believable with plausible denial, they went whole hog and said the terrorists were based in Ukraine and were trying to go back to Ukraine - through an active war front with hundreds of thousands of Russian troops, like that makes any sense.

    The Russians lack the competence to make up believable fabrication. As Chomsky said, dictators have never needed *clever* propaganda. With a gun pointed to everyone's head, you believe what we tell you - or else.

    The clever propaganda is in liberal democracies, because you actually have to convince people of stuff, and even better - make it think it was their own opinion. For example, that's why oil companies pay other people / front groups so much money to say stuff, because they know an oil company press release won't be believed.
    Last edited by Cipheron; 26th Mar 2024 at 01:29.

  14. #1364
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: under God's grace
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    Trying to blame Ukraine for this is farcical, but the commentators who suggest this was an FSB false flag operation disgust me.
    Using tragic deaths of civilians for political gains is deplorable, but that's not what Jake Broe is doing. It definitely raises questions when it took the police over an hour to react to the terrorist attack, and Moscow is chock full of police and surveillance. Combined with the fact that the fire suppression systems didn't react, it is very probable that at least something weird was going on. It's highly likely that putin had something to do with this, which would mean he let russian civilians be brutally butchered to further his own goals. If that's true, then that is what should disgust you, don't you think? Unless I misunderstood what you meant.

  15. #1365
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    The problem is in fact that FSB doesn't have to prepare the thing but - prepared by other players - just let it unroll.

  16. #1366
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Patrushev: they were going to Ukraine!
    Lukashenko: they were going to.....ME, oooops

    Dissonance in the system.....

  17. #1367
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: under God's grace
    Quote Originally Posted by lowenz View Post
    The problem is in fact that FSB doesn't have to prepare the thing but - prepared by other players - just let it unroll.
    Exactly. It was ISIS that did the attack, but putin knew about it. USA even tried to warn putin that islamic terrorists are planning an attack, which putin waved away as an intimidation attempt.

    There was a police station right next door to the concert hall. It took them more than an hour to respond. If this isn't strange, I don't know what is.

  18. #1368
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2024
    Location: Egyptian Afterlife
    Just remember, that even in normal governments manipulation of the masses is the keyword.

    Analyze, before believing everything you're told from politicians (doesn't matter which political view or party)

    An advise from our off planet friends (oh there are bad guys too but those are under control now).

    The idea is to keep people fighting each other (pesky politicians), instead of doing great things together in peace.

    And if you think Russia is doing this without US approval, think again they're all mounting the rivals scenario (like in the cold war) when they ALL (yeah all sides big, and small) are doing this according to the master plan.

    There is no doubt Russia mounted this attack at home for their own gain/support.

  19. #1369
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: under God's grace
    Quote Originally Posted by DuatDweller View Post
    Analyze, before believing everything you're told from politicians (doesn't matter which political view or party)
    I don't mean to sound cynical, but in general politicians don't say the things they say out of the goodness of their heart. The motive behind their output is to do politics within their party guidelines (I'm phrasing it nicely, but everyone knows what I mean by this).

    The idea is to keep people fighting each other (pesky politicians), instead of doing great things together in peace.
    We fight each other, and we do it all on our own. Aliens aren't our problem, or the illuminati, etc. Conspiracies like these are ways for us to blame something other than ourselves for our problems, and avoid taking responsibility for our own lives.

  20. #1370
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Quote Originally Posted by Qooper View Post
    We fight each other, and we do it all on our own. Aliens aren't our problem, or the illuminati, etc. Conspiracies like these are ways for us to blame something other than ourselves for our problems, and avoid taking responsibility for our own lives.
    +1

  21. #1371
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: under God's grace
    This explains why it took the russian police so long to respond to the terrorist attack:



    So if this is accurate, my earlier thinking that putin was involved was wrong. The cause is simply how the russian police works and what its main purpose is, which is to uphold and protect the power of the tsar. This would make sense and it would result in this behaviour.
    Last edited by Qooper; 28th Mar 2024 at 19:35.

  22. #1372
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Timothy Snyder talks about the nature of fascism and the current state of the war in the geopolitical context with one of the neocon hawks of the old old times:


  23. #1373
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2024
    Location: Egyptian Afterlife
    Well it seems all will be over soon, Ukraine claims they're out of ammo.
    https://www.politico.eu/article/russ...eed-that-ride/

    You can google for more sources but they all say the same from a long time.

  24. #1374
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Ukraine gets more ammo. And if by some chance they run out of that, partisan warfare is an option. It bears repeating again and again -- Russia hasn't even gotten to the hard part yet.

    Barring some extraordinary event that's somehow able to greatly shift the odds in favour of Russia or some extraordinary political weakness from Ukraine, the war will go on. So far, Russia hasn't been able to make any significant gains since the initial invasion while Ukraine has taken back significant parts of its territory. Russia has more manpower and equipment, but it also loses far more than Ukraine, due to having to attack fortified positions and not having the capability to conduct combined arms warfare to overcome them. The only thing they can do is to shell everything to rubble, bit by bit, making extremely slow gains. Other than that, Russia is resorting only to terror attacks against Ukraine's infrastructure -- dams, power plants, hospitals, apartment buildings, shopping centers.

    There is no wunderwaffe or a turnaround in the war that Russia can employ. They don't have the equipment to scale up the war and conquer Ukraine. Using nukes is political and quite likely literal suicide. The allies they have won't support them beyond what they are already doing.

    Meanwhile, Ukraine has the political will to continue the war, largely supported by the populace. For Ukrainians, it is not a contest of power, it is a fight for survival. They have seen what happens in occupied areas and to the soldiers captured by their enemy. And they have seen what happens to countries like Chechnya that made peace with Russia. To give Russia a breather, letting it catch its breath and rebuild, only means certain destruction of Ukraine as as a state with horrific results for Ukrainians. Hence there is no incentive for Ukraine to sue for peace or give up and there is every incentive to not let Russia make further gains, whatever the cost.

  25. #1375
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: The other Derry
    Don't underestimate the power of Russian propaganda to shape the narrative against Ukraine. It is having a big effect in my country.

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