Russia invades Ukraine

[Starker]

Then what the fuck are you so worried about? Thank you for making the closing statement for my case! Argument over.

Since the argument is over, as someone whose family has been on the receiving end or Russia's pacifying attempts, I extend to you a sincere and heartfelt fuck you.

[Tocky]

This stance leads to the USA rushing all over the world, bankrupting ourselves to fight everyone else's wars for them. And where has that gotten us since...Vietnam, at least?

I would rather go down doing the right thing than thrive doing the wrong thing. As I said, I am at a loss how to explain honor.

Don't even fucking act like you think Reagan is some kind of hero. Was this a troll post? It will certainly be Alanis-level ironic though, if liberals "re-examine" Reagan and start to idolize him solely due to his global warmaking record.

Oh hell no. He was no hero. But he did understand Russia. He was a manipulator for the rich and his soak the rich in enough money that some will drip off crap was seen for what it was later. But he did understand that you have to stand up to totalitarian regimes. All those who lived through WWII understood that. They saw how ignoring it worked.

[lowenz]

And not for "being good", just because totalitarian regimes with resources love stocking up weapons with the "security reason" ideology.
There's no totalitarian regime with peace aspirations, only domination because that's the goal of being totalitarian: not the sake of the rule of law (bad thing by itself considering humans as animals to train) but to dominate.

It's really that simple and this apply to every "global power" playing fascism in various flavors.

[Starker]

So, there is an unusual situation that has developed in Kherson, because the Russian forces are in close proximity to the city. At first they were content with shelling the city with artillery and trying to snipe the residents, but as the citizens have adopted to the tactics and stopped going out to most easily targeted places, the Russians have started to use drones to hunt down anyone they can find, causing hundreds of casualties among Kherson's residents. There is even a Wikipedia article about it now:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_safari

[...]
Civilian targets have included people waiting at bus stops, commuters, children playing in parks, schools, public buses, civilian cars, and ambulances. Russian drones using a napalm-like mixture to burn down entire neighbourhoods have also been reported. Local volunteers and experts have reported "double tap" strikes hitting first responders and sappers, and preventing firefighters from responding.

In what was described as a "typical case" by Forbes, a mother-of-two was cycling home when she was spotted by a Russian drone, as she started pedaling as fast as she could she realized that the drone had started following her, eventually it dropped a grenade which brushed the woman's body before exploding at her feet, injuring her with shrapnel and leaving her unable to walk. Imagery of the attack was posted on a Russian Telegram with a winking face emoji and a comment incorrectly describing her as a "soldier".

The footage captured during the attacks on Ukrainian civilians are shared and celebrated on Russian social media channels. Zabrisky said that many of the drones are purchased through fundraisers organized by Russian civilians, and Russian soldiers then share their drone footage showcasing Ukrainian deaths online so that supporters of the fundraisers can see their "return on investment". Pop music is sometimes added to the footage.
[...]

These are the kind of people that Ukrainians are supposed to surrender to and seek mercy from. People who hunt children in parks to drop explosives on and who also try to kill first responders arriving at the scene to prevent any help for the victims.

[lowenz]

Literally manhack of original HL2 story. I mean literally because that's what it was, citizens (of a soviet-like city during Combine domination) playing with drones to kill "rebels" thinking it was just a game.

[DuatDweller]

If anyone cares GSC game world just published Stalker 2.
And yes GSC is Ukrainian.

[Starker]

A visual chart of how Russia's control over Ukraine's territory has changed over the course of the war:
https://www.warmapper.org/stats

[DuatDweller]

In case anybody doubts we're heading for a war, who knows even WW3...

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/internatio...6734041_4.html

Don't worry its written in English.

Discussions over sending European troops to Ukraine reignited

With the prospect of American disengagement from Kyiv following Donald Trump's return to the White House, Paris and London are not ruling out leading a military coalition in Ukraine.

[RippedPhreak]

If the USA won't start WWIII, I guess the UK and France will do it for us! Does the nihilist Left just want to make sure the world dies with them? "Apres moi, le deluge."

[Starker]

Enabling imperialist aggression is not what keeps the world safe.

[uncadonego]

If WWIII starts, history will show Putin started it three years ago.

[DuatDweller]

If the USA won't start WWIII, I guess the UK and France will do it for us! Does the nihilist Left just want to make sure the world dies with them? "Apres moi, le deluge."

Why not, Europe started the latest wars, Austria and Germany WWI, Germany WWII, and now UK and France...

[Tocky]

If the USA won't start WWIII, I guess the UK and France will do it for us! Does the nihilist Left just want to make sure the world dies with them? "Apres moi, le deluge."

I thought you evangelical types WANTED the "end of days" thing. Well, shill that you are for Russia, I guess you missed when the last world war happened we decided that defeating totalitarian regimes was a good thing. Or are you such a pussy that you will not stand up for anything good? Better to roll over and give away all our men fought and died for then if it means you can play video games for another year or two? Why do you reckon Trump wants to end NATO, the only organization created to stand against expansionist places like Russia, China, and his little love letter buddy Kim? Kim got the info to create effective long range intercontinental missiles under Trump last time. Will he get him to turn his head while he takes South Korea this time? Better start making your excuses now.

I remember when Republicans were ostensibly for the US over Russia. I guess when Russia decided to drop all that being for the worker nonsense and go whole hog for the rich, Republicans decided to show that they aren't for any US ideals after all, but only for the rich wherever they are. All it took was one Russian whore at their convention to turn them traitor. Now if they can end the mainstream media who report on that stuff. All that glorious Russian misinformation can just pour into the heads of idiots here.

We see that because Ukraine would not lie for Trump to help him get elected they were tossed to the wolf Russia who would help him get elected. Republicans are not for the US, just Trump. They sold out their country for one man.

I almost forgot Tulsi Gabbard, Putins other mole, who was appointed to funnel CIA intel to Putin faster now. He won't have to send his agents to Trumps bathroom anymore. Yay US...SR. Just a matter of time now.

[baeuchlein]

If WWIII starts, history will show Putin started it three years ago.

No problem, Donnie Trumpet will stop this war within 24 hours!!

[Cipheron]

https://news.sky.com/story/zelenskyy...-land-13263085

Zelenskyy suggests 'hot phase' of Ukraine war could end in return for NATO membership if offered - even if seized land isn't returned immediately

The Ukrainian president told Sky News's chief correspondent Stuart Ramsay NATO membership would have to be offered to unoccupied parts of the country in order to end the "hot phase of the war", as long as the NATO invitation itself recognises Ukraine's internationally recognised borders.

Volodymyr Zelenskyy has suggested a ceasefire deal could be struck if Ukrainian territory he controls could be taken "under the NATO umbrella" - allowing him to negotiate the return of the rest later "in a diplomatic way"

In an interview with Sky News's chief correspondent Stuart Ramsay, the Ukrainian president was asked to respond to media reports saying **one of US president-elect Donald Trump's plans to end the war might be for Kyiv to cede the land Moscow has taken to Russia in exchange for Ukraine joining NATO.**

... He appeared to accept occupied eastern parts of the country would fall outside of such a deal for the time being.

It's an interesting proposal. Basically it plays into rumors that Trump was floating the plan, which puts Trump's promises to end the war on the hotseat but also lets Trump take some credit for the proposal. If they can also find a way for Putin to spin this as a win at home, there's some chance it could go through.

This would solve the problem of Putin being able to re-arm and come back for a second go, if Ukraine basically ends up bristling with NATO weaponry. It would basically make the situation similar to North Korea / South Korea, where US presence has prevented the North invading the South again for 70 years, despite the grey area of whether the war actually ended.

What would be interesting is if the Trump camp was floating the proposal, but with the expectation that Zelensky would say "no way" because the lands weren't returned, so that Trump could go "see? Zelensky doesn't even want peace" and cut off military aid. But Zelensky then did a home-run around them by accepting the plan and making them stick to it.

So i'd be laughing if Trump has to go with this plan and say "yes it was my plan all along" but inside he's seething because he didn't actually want Ukraine to get NATO protection.

[lowenz]

Every Trump action or non-action are "my plan all along eheh!" and his fans of course will double down the brag.

[Tocky]

So i'd be laughing if Trump has to go with this plan and say "yes it was my plan all along" but inside he's seething because he didn't actually want Ukraine to get NATO protection.

I think you underestimate the degree to which Trump is under Putins control. Putin made him say on national TV that he trusted Putin over our own CIA. If Trump does back this plan then it is with the intention of withdrawing the US from NATO. There will be some way to let Putin take even more territory. And don't think Putin will quit. He has stated he is expansionist and he is. He may be more patient than Hitler but he is just as bold. He will not stop building up his arsenal with the intention of expanding further. His oil sales will increase to China and North Korea with proceeds going to military equipment. Putin is not done and Trump is not done licking his boots.

[heywood]

What would be interesting is if the Trump camp was floating the proposal, but with the expectation that Zelensky would say "no way" because the lands weren't returned, so that Trump could go "see? Zelensky doesn't even want peace" and cut off military aid. But Zelensky then did a home-run around them by accepting the plan and making them stick to it.

So i'd be laughing if Trump has to go with this plan and say "yes it was my plan all along" but inside he's seething because he didn't actually want Ukraine to get NATO protection.

I was thinking the other way around. This is Zelenskyy's idea, offered with the expectation that NATO membership will be a poison pill that Trump can't swallow. I don't think Trump has any motivation to end the war in Ukraine, he just wants us to stop funding it and disengage with Ukraine. He doesn't like mutual defense guarantees and isn't going to expand them, especially not with Ukraine, and especially not with Zelenskyy.

I'm not sure what Zelenskyy was trying to do here, but I'd guess it's meant for Europe. It's going to fall on deaf ears in the US.

[Pyrian]

I could easily see Trump going for a plan that let him brag about accomplishing his promise to end the war immediately and diplomatically. Like, you're not wrong that he's on the isolationist side, but that's clearly secondary to his ego.

But I don't see how it clears Putin, who has repeatedly expressed extreme opposition to Ukraine joining NATO, and indeed arguably started the wars specifically over Ukraine cozying up to the West instead of falling under his umbrella. What does he get out of this deal? Territory he already controls? Sanctions he already subverts? A break from the fighting, I suppose, but I don't think he'll agree to any part of Ukraine joining NATO for that.

[heywood]

Exactly, NATO membership for Ukraine would be a strategic defeat for Russia even if Ukraine trades territory, making it a poison pill for Putin too.

Was that a message for Xi?

[Cipheron]

What does he get out of this deal? Territory he already controls? Sanctions he already subverts? A break from the fighting, I suppose, but I don't think he'll agree to any part of Ukraine joining NATO for that.

The sanctions would be the key bargaining chip for Putin, I didn't think of that. Lifting sanctions would immediately spur a huge amount of economic activity in Russia, which Putin can take the credit for.

That probably shows the importance of being willing to use sanctions even if they didn't stop the war. They're a bargaining chip you can negotiate away later.