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Thread: God damn Thieves' Guild!

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2011

    God damn Thieves' Guild!

    It is just the worst level layout, in any game, ever! I have always disliked it, but now I HATE it! It is even worse than I remember it, it is just 500 small spaces randomly connected, and some of them copied to confuse you even more. Even a computer generated level couldn't ever be this bad! But the worst part is that it has killed my desire to replay T1!

    Some of you may have watched this documentary and know why the guild is so bad - because it was created by a amateur woman with no prior experience, experimenting in Dromed, and her manager who was apparently a freaking ri tad deciding that this atrocity of a level needed to go into Thief Gold:
    https://youtu.be/8ZmcbShMFNY?t=1425

    I HATE Thief Gold! When I was buying Thief anthology on Ebay many years ago, I specifically asked the seller if it really was The Dark Project as the game case said and he confirmed it, but of course at the end it turned out to be Gold hahaha Before that, lightyears ago, when I didn't have internet at home, I asked someone to *obtain* Thief for me and said that it had to be The Dark Project, of course he got me Gold HAHAHAHA

    Before anyone says it, yes I know that you can skip missions in Thief, but doesn't it defeat the purpose of replaying a game? And I know that a mod exists that turns Gold into Dark Project, but I'm not going to replay the first few missions again, it will have to wait for some years. Thank you late Looking Glass for spoiling one of my favorite games
    Last edited by zajazd; 17th Jun 2022 at 01:55.

  2. #2
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: Southern,California
    i thought everyone loved to spin to roulette wheel :P

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2018
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    The woman you're referring to is Sara Verrilli, who also made The Sword -- usually cited as by far the best T1 OM. FYI, most of the level designers for Thief 1, """woman""" or otherwise, were amateurs.

    Personally, I think it's one of the absolute best OMs for Thief 1, and undoubtedly the best of the three Gold maps. The statement that it's "just 500 small spaces randomly connected, and some of them copied to confuse you even more" is demonstrably untrue. Sure, some of the sewers look alike, but the sewers actually represent a small fraction of the map. Just because you might get lost in them doesn't make them bigger.



    Is it a walk in the park? No. But it's all the more rewarding for its commitment to immersing the player in a complex and varied set of locations. A real underground Thieves Guild with attached mansions would also be a challenge. That's the point.

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: the Sheeple Pen
    Where's that map from?

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2018
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    It's a screenshot I took myself in DromEd to illustrate the point. In fact, my screenshot makes the sewers look even more prominent than they are in 3D space, because this top-down view doesn't properly show the interiors of either the casino or Reuben's, and only a tiny cutaway of Donal's.

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2000
    Quote Originally Posted by zajazd View Post
    Some of you may have watched this documentary and know why the guild is so bad - because it was created by a amateur woman with no prior experience, experimenting in Dromed
    This is just a bizarre attitude towards creativity. Some awesome levels have been made by ‘amateurs with no prior experience’. It really doesn’t necessarily have any bearing at all on quality. The history of art would be much the poorer if ‘amateurs with no prior experience, experimenting..’ hadn’t had a crack.

    Also as Dirk Bogan said, this level was made by Sarah Verilli. It’s kind of bizarre that the same designer made probably the most loved (The Sword) and the most hated level in TG. Personally I’ve never understood the outright hate for this level, though equally it’s not on my favourites list.

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    The sewer is just three overlaid loops, not "500 small spaces." There is also not a single copied room in the mission. When you say it's "worse than you remembered," I get a feeling that your own expectations played an active part in the experience. If you re-evaluate what you're doing and how you approach the mission, you might find that there's actually many things to like about it too.
    Last edited by marbleman; 17th Jun 2022 at 06:39.

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: May 2022
    oh come on, don't be such a drama.. queen? king? person? them? (you never know these days)
    if a little bit of digital 3D maze breaks you like that, you must have much fun in life :)

    also, yeah, you can skip it, but that makes Garrett sad and crying when nobody is watching.
    what? did you think water arrows grow in puddles? no, they are made from Garrett's tears!

    BY THE BUILDER, MAN, go into that sewer and get that vase! do it!
    play it, enjoy it, chill the f**k up.
    or don't.
    Last edited by Mandragora; 17th Jun 2022 at 07:07.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2011
    Ok, white knights, but pls give source to her being the author of The Sword, it can't be true. Did you watch the interview I linked? She says that she was a junior designer and Thieves' Guild was her first mission. Unless she could travel in time it is impossible for her to be the author of The Sword. If I remember correctly Levelord was the author of Sword which is completely believable and logical due to his previous work in other games.

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: May 2022
    me. internet. brain. hurts. knight. white.

    https://thief.fandom.com/wiki/OM_T1_The_Sword
    https://thief.fandom.com/wiki/OM_TG_Thieves%27_Guild

    it was so complicated navigating through internet to find this data, almost like going through sewers in that one mission made by those bloody women amateurs!
    Last edited by Mandragora; 17th Jun 2022 at 09:53.

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: May 2022
    oh, and there is this.. form The Dark Project credits video.
    also, she is listed as a 'Lead Designer' for Thief Gold.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ko2...ew?usp=sharing

    oh, and by the way, i think your link shows Terri Brosius talking about The Song of Caverns level.
    Those bloody women amateurs, strumpets of The Trickster!

    i mean.. yeah.. i have nothing more to say. tar and feathers, maybe..
    Last edited by Mandragora; 17th Jun 2022 at 10:17.

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2011
    It all finally comes together - Sara Verrilli, a very talented mapper, made Thieves' Guild so terrible on purpose because she knew that LG would soon be no more and it was her way of saying FU to the management. It is something like the last movie of David Lynch - fanboys think it is high art but it is actually incoherent nonsense and Lynch is secretly laughing at fanboys' attempts to make any sense of the movie.

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2009
    Location: thiefgold.com
    This was also my most disliked mission in T1. Too many sewer areas, it gets frustrating and monotonous.
    I would have redone it by keeping it at the same size, but replacing a lot of sewer areas with more guild hideout sections (i.e. like the ones in the immediate vicinity of the Overlord's Fancy's basement).

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Easy for me to forget now as I've become so familiar with it, but yes, the Guild can be a frustrating level for those new to it.

    Often there is no real clue on how to progress, as the only hint or pointer might be in a document you've missed, or a conversation that didn't complete because you interupted the talking NPCs.

    And even when you do know what sort of thing you need to be looking out for, well it might be behind a sealed door you have no clue how to open, or in a secret area whose entrance is easy to miss. Or just be a needle within a very large haystack.

    I think this is why beta testing is so important. If only people who already know the solutions and where everything is test the mission, then they can't be the most objective judges of how hard it is.

    Well, for all I know maybe the Guild actually was thoroughly beta-tested, but it comes across to me as a level that could have done with more signposts. And gives me the feeling that there was no real appreciation of how people playing this mission completely blind would be likely to fare within it.
    Last edited by Cigam; 17th Jun 2022 at 17:18.

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Quote Originally Posted by zajazd View Post
    It all finally comes together - Sara Verrilli, a very talented mapper, made Thieves' Guild so terrible on purpose because she knew that LG would soon be no more and it was her way of saying FU to the management. It is something like the last movie of David Lynch - fanboys think it is high art but it is actually incoherent nonsense and Lynch is secretly laughing at fanboys' attempts to make any sense of the movie.
    Okay... No. While I will readily admit that Thieves' Guild has some pretty problematic gameplay issues and likely would have benefited from thorougher play-testing, there is no evidence to support your hypothesis of some sort of angry intentions on Sara Verrilli's part. Thieves' Guild is certainly not among my favorite missions (I would probably rank it below Escape! and Strange Bedfellows), but it's not completely terrible either. It mixes some elements I enjoy with others that are probably the least enjoyable for me in the game. I would still rather play it than Sabotage at Soulforge, though.

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    My main issue with this mission is its placement in the narrative sequence. For me, it works better played as an FM separate from the main game.

    Placing any mission between Assassins and The Sword kind of trips up the start of the game's main narrative. But placing a particularly long, difficult mission with no real bearing on the main plot in between those missions?

    It's one of the reasons I prefer TDP to TG, despite how I actually like Thieves' Guild and Song of the Caverns as individual missions.

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2000
    Quote Originally Posted by zajazd View Post
    Ok, white knights.
    You cluelessly linked to a video showing Terri Brosius. People pointed out she’s not even the mission author. Then you come back with this ‘white knights’ crap. What a total bellend you are.

  18. #18
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: Southern,California
    i want to say i loved the bracelet in that mission and its rarely used in fan missions,i think i played one other fan mission where that bracelet is in it,a restyled of the thieves guild

    i always wondered if there was anything more to that bracelet as in lore/magical?

  19. #19
    Member
    Registered: May 2022
    Quote Originally Posted by zajazd View Post
    It all finally comes together - Sara Verrilli, a very talented mapper, made Thieves' Guild so terrible on purpose because she knew that LG would soon be no more and it was her way of saying FU to the management. It is something like the last movie of David Lynch - fanboys think it is high art but it is actually incoherent nonsense and Lynch is secretly laughing at fanboys' attempts to make any sense of the movie.
    just keep walking, son.
    you are far from It-all-finally-comes-together-ville.
    deep breaths, on foot in front of the other, and eventually, you will get there.

  20. #20
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Quote Originally Posted by Twist View Post
    My main issue with this mission is its placement in the narrative sequence. For me, it works better played as an FM separate from the main game.

    Placing any mission between Assassins and The Sword kind of trips up the start of the game's main narrative. But placing a particularly long, difficult mission with no real bearing on the main plot in between those missions?

    It's one of the reasons I prefer TDP to TG, despite how I actually like Thieves' Guild and Song of the Caverns as individual missions.
    Absolutely right. Even aside from the structural issues it creates in the storyline, it just doesn't make sense from a gameplay standpoint jumping from the difficulty level of Assassins, which is barely more challenging than Lord Bafford's Manor and arguably less difficult than Break from Cragscleft Prison and Down in the Bonehoard (don't get me wrong, Assassins is still my favorite mission from the entire series, but it's not hard), to the most challenging mission of the game by far is jarring, to say the least. The player has just gotten the hang of integrating lock-picking with stealth and sneaking past a few more guards than they dealt with in Bafford's manor, and now the game throws this at them? And if that weren't awkward enough, then the gameplay reverts back to a more moderate difficulty in The Sword, which feels perfectly placed after Assassins and before The Haunted Cathedral in terms of challenge. Thieves' Guild sticks out like a sore thumb in the game's pacing. It really does belong in a separate Thief game altogether, with a separate storyline (either a prequel to TDP, something in-between TDP and TMA, or between TMA and TDS).

    Quote Originally Posted by zajazd View Post
    It is just the worst level layout, in any game, ever! I have always disliked it, but now I HATE it! It is even worse than I remember it, it is just 500 small spaces randomly connected, and some of them copied to confuse you even more. Even a computer generated level couldn't ever be this bad! But the worst part is that it has killed my desire to replay T1!

    ...

    I HATE Thief Gold! When I was buying Thief anthology on Ebay many years ago, I specifically asked the seller if it really was The Dark Project as the game case said and he confirmed it, but of course at the end it turned out to be Gold hahaha Before that, lightyears ago, when I didn't have internet at home, I asked someone to *obtain* Thief for me and said that it had to be The Dark Project, of course he got me Gold HAHAHAHA

    Before anyone says it, yes I know that you can skip missions in Thief, but doesn't it defeat the purpose of replaying a game? And I know that a mod exists that turns Gold into Dark Project, but I'm not going to replay the first few missions again, it will have to wait for some years. Thank you late Looking Glass for spoiling one of my favorite games
    I'm really sorry that that mission had such a negative impact on you, and that you experienced such hardships in trying to obtain Thief: The Dark Project. I fully agree that TDP is better than Thief Gold, which seems not to be the predominant perspective among Thief fans. I think your frustrations with playing Thieves' Guild have clouded your reasoning, though. People who defend the mission and its designer are not automatically "white knights" just because they disagree with your perspective. Take a closer look at their comments and grant them the decency of accepting their reasons at face value instead of inventing ulterior motives for them, as you did for Sara Verrilli herself. Clearly they had different experiences with the mission than you did, otherwise they'd share your feelings about it.

    Personally, I actually happen to agree with your broader views about the mission layout, albeit not quite as angrily. I think you raise some valid criticisms. And I also think others raise some valid counterpoints. Ultimately, though, all that really matters is how the mission impacts each player personally (playing a game itself is a deeply personal experience), and that is something that will always be subjective on some level. I see no reason for hostility from either side on this subject.

  21. #21
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2018
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Judging by the comments here, I think a lot of the problems people have with Thieves' Guild are extrinsic to the map itself: it's horribly positioned in Thief Gold, that's undeniable. The story and difficulty don't mesh well, and it's intrusive to a first-time playthrough.

    If taken as a standalone experience however, I think its gameplay and story are among the most compelling of any OM. But perhaps it isn't fair to treat it like a fan mission when it's part of a package.

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: May 2022
    The way i see it, main hook of Thief gameplay is conquering environment. Mentally mapping it.
    That is the core element and hardest part. Everything else comes out of that.
    Loot and switches, just to give you motivation to explore whole map and look at every pixel.
    Guards, just to break your timing and force you to think differently or redirect you.
    And it all blend so well with narrative, characters and world we all love to skulk around in.
    But once you conquer the map mentally, when you know the environment, the game is easy.
    I mean, it is easy game even before that.
    Just let yourself go, drift, explore, lose yourself in it, enjoy.

    That is why i don't understand all those rationalizations and crying about difficulty curves,story pacing and stuff. Especially if you are replaying the game for X-th time.
    It is massive level, for sure. But i think they (TLG) got some early feedback, and they realized that early thief fans love complexity. I did. Still do. And they decided to go in that direction.
    From this time distance, and with all those interviews and analysis of the game, you can clearly see their thinking behind some decisions.

    And please, don't be such a whiner and try not to blame others for everything. Sometimes it is you.
    Play the game and enjoy it for what it is. It is a 25 years old game. Cherish it. Learn from it, either it's good moves or mistakes.
    You can also simply say 'i don't prefer that level'. It is ok.
    Or maybe you don't like Thief gameplay any more. It is ok, also.

    I love Thief universe so i am easy customer. I love The Dark Project, i love Gold, i love The Metal Age. I love The Deadly Shadows.
    But gameplay, clunkiness and that reliable familiar feeling/physics of Dark Engine is pure joy :)

  23. #23
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2011
    I have been playing fan missions on and off since mid 2000s, I have tried at least 99% of them all and Guild is the worst one, OM or fan, it is common knowledge and if you don't see it then you are special in some way.

    Here are more of the same sentiments
    https://steamcommunity.com/app/21160...6883440978580/

    [..] it shouldnt even had to be in the final/gold version, it was so out of place, a FANMADE MAP USING MY ASSCHEEKS WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER DESIGNED [..]

    I would use it as my sig if mods would allow it

  24. #24
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    It's a common opinion. Not common knowledge.

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: May 2022
    Quote Originally Posted by zajazd View Post
    ..insignificant noise..
    someone there?.. nothing making noise now.. must've been rats.. mumble mumble.. when they gonna bring me my dinner?..

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