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Thread: Revolving core (rotating Tweq) creature attachment not rotating

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: Sep 1999
    Location: Texas, hhhwweeee hawww

    Revolving core (rotating Tweq) creature attachment not rotating

    Hello all, long time no talk.

    For the sake of not spoiling, lets say I have a creature with a physical "shape" model of a cube, and can fly (z coord) as copied after the T1 air elemental. Love it, it flies at me and tries to blow me up like the frog beast, fun times.

    I made another object just under "SFX" in obj hierarchy, just adding "shape" model of a core I want to rotate within the cube above, and it spins on X using tweq settings. I can place it alone and there it is spinning as expected, floating in the air because of where I placed it. It doesn't need any other physics with location-rotation as it will just be for effects.

    Although I verified that it spins when placed on its own, when I link it as a creatureattachment or a detailattachment in the hierarchy, to my flying cube creature, it appears in the word but doesn't spin.

    Is there something more I must do to my SFX object, a missing prop, to ensure it keeps rotating once attached to my AI? THANKS!

  2. #2
    Member
    Registered: Sep 1999
    Location: Texas, hhhwweeee hawww
    Hrmmmm maybe the attached "SFX" will always go with the main AI rotation / orientation for the attachment types I've been trying, thus ignoring the tweq. I will try a centered Vhot and see if the intended rotating "core" sfx will rotate then.

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Sep 1999
    Location: Texas, hhhwweeee hawww
    Checking TalismanField from t1 to see how it's done.

  4. #4
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Attached particle systems have their orientation locked to the parent object. That means both rotation tweqs and spin/pulse groups become unable to perform rotation.

    For example, the flies that rotate around the zombies in Cragscleft don't actually rotate around them. They're spawned with a short duration and random X/Y motion to create the illusion that they're rotating around the zombies. So even Looking Glass had to work around this limitation.

    Now, SS2 in its final level has an enemy with multiple platonic solids orbiting around a center object. This was accomplished with rotating joints.

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: Sep 1999
    Location: Texas, hhhwweeee hawww
    Gotcha. It's fascinating to sometimes see what LG had to do. I was tickled when I saw the AI of the Air Elemental is actually the Frog. I'm like OH that makes sense.

    I have been avoiding rotating joints, as it always seemed scary but I'll have a look at all the current documentation and try some things. Thanks ZB!

    PS. I should see if I can find sliptips rock creature and see how it was done. Rather, it was likely joints, but will copy props. Gunna go ahead and setup the joint on the model.

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2006
    Location: On the tip of your tongue.
    Objects will rotate with a joint if attached to it, but I don't think you can attach particles to a joint?

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Sep 1999
    Location: Texas, hhhwweeee hawww
    Thanks Nicked, I'll keep this in mind. The core is an object, I just have it in the SFX portion of the obj hierarchy because I don't need it to have much inherited. Still in case there is something deep in Dromed that has roped off obj coming from that hierarchy I will just use another place in the hierarchy.

    I have sliptop's rock elemental converted to 3ds, but oddly when opening it I don't see any joints. Just the Base object, and sub-objects. Then also a random vhot that I don't think was ever used. I will just start with actually learning more here https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142374 and start from scratch. I might just see what it would be like to make a joint with no sub-objects and see how detailattachment link would work too.

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    Location: Texas
    Your base object does not have to be large. On one of my objects I used a small base object that was barely visible, and the sub object was substantially large. I don't think an object with a joint and no sub objects would work as the joint and sub object have to be paired together with the same joint number.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Sep 1999
    Location: Texas, hhhwweeee hawww
    Thanks to all for the help here.

    @john9818a, I tend to agree, as I did make just a joint on the base and nothing else and nothing really happened in trying different attachment types.

    In reading the tutorial LarryG made linked just above, there was no mention of what to name sub-object that would presume to use the same joint as another sub-object.
    I posted the question but it may be unfollowed or people annoyed at my necromancy.

    In your example john9818a, you say you did have more than one sub-object use the same joint?

    My example I gave in the other thread:

    Example: ("Aa" Orrery Sun) ➜ ("x01aa0000" axel) ➜ ("@s01bb" Moon)
    ➥ ("@s01cc" Earth)
    I worry about the name of my Earth object. I know it should start with "@s01" as it, like the moon, uses the same joint, but I don't know what to name it but "@s01cc" but I am not trying to denote it's a sub-sub-object.

    How did you name yours?

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    Location: Texas
    I used the same naming format as what Larry posted in his tutorial. Honestly I don't think you can use more than one sub object on the same joint, but if you could then both sub objects would have the same parameters in the Joints property in dromed, so there would really be no reason to not make the two sub objects into a single sub object. I don't think bsp would be able to deal with two sub objects in line on the same joint.

    When I made the triple expansion engine in Derelict Dock District FM I had some really complicated jointed objects, and since I had so many joints for the whole engine I had to make the moving parts in three objects. I'll go back and look at how I did it & post back here.
    Last edited by john9818a; 15th Aug 2022 at 21:26. Reason: fixed FM name

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Sep 1999
    Location: Texas, hhhwweeee hawww
    Quote Originally Posted by john9818a View Post
    I used the same naming format as what Larry posted in his tutorial. Honestly I don't think you can use more than one sub object on the same joint, but if you could then both sub objects would have the same parameters in the Joints property in dromed, so there would really be no reason to not make the two sub objects into a single sub object. I don't think bsp would be able to deal with two sub objects in line on the same joint.

    When I made the triple expansion engine in Derelict Dock District FM I had some really complicated jointed objects, and since I had so many joints for the whole engine I had to make the moving parts in three objects. I'll go back and look at how I did it & post back here.
    Ah I misread your comment. Yeah I wish I could explain better without spoiling - it was something psychedelic with shapes on the same plane spinning. It would require multiple subs on the same joint, to get the effect but sadly it sounds like it can't be done. I will try to mock up something that is just one sub-object, that looks okay enough, perhaps once it starts going. Even then, I am going to be clipping my Base Object for sure (on purpose for the psychedelic effect).

    If in the end bsp doesn't care at least having the clipping of the base object, whos to say I can't just have the second joint near the first, and the player couldn't really tell. I dunno, but I have some backup ideas to keep this AI pretty neat. I had a lot of fun learning about Vhots but never did learn much or tackle joints. I appreciate any knowledge, and or examples.

    The other idea is what if the sub-objects were actually other AI that were deaf and blind but have to follow the main AI flying about. Even the lag behind would actually look good for this concept AI, so I have to go look up the best / clean way to have AI follow AI closely (best if right on top themselves).

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Sep 1999
    Location: Texas, hhhwweeee hawww
    This is the joint settings for sliptip's rock elemental so yeah even though they looked like it was spinning around the same central rock, looks like it was two diff joints.


  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    Location: Texas
    I just looked at my engine from DDD (and got my headache again ) and in just one part of the engine which includes 1/3 of the crankshaft and one pushrod, I used 3 joints. One is for the crankshaft, the second is for a bushing-like object that is in between the crankshaft and the pushrod. In order for the pushrod to move up and down while keeping the top at the center of the cylinder (different object), I had to rotate the crankshaft forward at 18, rotate the bushings backwards at -18, and rotate the pushrod at -1.615 between -8 and +8. It took me hours to narrow that figure down. The crankshaft is a sub object of the main object, the bushings are sub object of the crankshaft, and the pushrod is a sub object of the bushings. I wonder if sliptip used a similar method.

    btw AI can't be sub objects because they are totally different types of objects. When you make an object it is either an AI type or a non-AI type. I have used the rotate property on a corpse before though.

    If you want to use my DDD engine as a reference if it would help at all, just move object #54 to the engine room and make it frobable. When you frob it the engine will start.

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: Sep 1999
    Location: Texas, hhhwweeee hawww
    Firstly, wow! That's wild, I gotta see that in-game! I thought I played all your stuff but I don't remember this. Will have to download it to marvel at it tomorrow.

    Oh and the AI thing no, it's just a regular "shape" model etc. But I will wanted other AI to follow it so closely as to clip into it. Not unlike the old school trailing mouse:


    The lackies will follow the main AI, and they will be blind and deaf, then slain once the main is slain.

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Sep 1999
    Location: Texas, hhhwweeee hawww

    Went back into making a joint again today, but yeah, because my BASE and SUB objects would intersect along the rotating path, it errors out in the bsp.exe.
    hey, merging one atomic, one not!


    But yeah, I had fair warning. Sadly, it's how I want the AI to look. In the sketch below, so I don't spoil I will use a simple cube. Imagine the blue line as the joint and the cube is one instance of BASE and in the same exact place is another cube that is the SUB.


    If anyone has any clever way around this, maybe even hacking something into the .e file, let me know. But for now, I'm giving up on this AI. That said, I had a lot of fun learning here, and pretty much ready to make some cool hinged objects when the time comes.

    Edit1: In the sketch I have the joint wider than the objects just for example. I did however try this, as well as inside/small, and even the same size as the base. Funny enough one of my 3DS exporters converts stand-alone edges to a plane. This made it work in the sense that bsp didn't error, but rather chose the top of the plane and made the [cube] flip end over end, even clipping the base object!

    Edit2: WAIT. So I offset the inside joint a little and it worked! Before it was as you saw in the sketch. Dead center of the objects. Interesting. I will see how little I can move it from center, where bsp doesn't yell at me. If very little, players wouldn't notice the misalignment. Still if anyone else has ideas, I'm all ears.
    Last edited by gamophyte; 17th Aug 2022 at 20:11.

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: Constantly losing tug o'war
    We can see a mesh called "Model" and another called "aa". I think BSP will combine multiple meshes into one (except for "@..." meshes). The output text suggests that the name of the combined root mesh is Model, but the joint refers to aa.
    Last edited by R Soul; 18th Aug 2022 at 14:05.

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Sep 1999
    Location: Texas, hhhwweeee hawww
    My apologies R Soul, that was a rushed screenshot. I open in anim8tor to clean up the groups, so there isn't that model group there normally. This issue still happens even without the "model" there. I just happen to have this model open already and quickly took the screenshot to show the error.

    The issue was the perfect alignment of the base with sub.
    Last edited by gamophyte; 18th Aug 2022 at 16:01. Reason: Elaborated, now that I had time

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