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Thread: Grand Theft Auto VI

  1. #1
    PC Gamering Smartey Man
    I <3 consoles and gamepads

    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: New Zealand

    Grand Theft Auto VI

    Little over 1 hour of GTA 6 footage leaked. The earlier Bloomberg report about you swapping between a playable latina and her boyfriend was real. The surprising thing to me is that the latina player character is actually an attractive, very feminine woman, which is almost unheard in most modern Western AAA games of the last 5 years or so. The boyfriend looks like a Kevin Federline-esque wigger.
    https://odysee.com/@lili:c/GTA-6-ALL...eft-Auto-VI):e
    https://odysee.com/GTA-VI-leak-(part-1):4
    https://odysee.com/GTA-VI-Leak-(part-2):9

    Since this part of the Bloomberg leak is true, then the part about self-censoring their writing is probably true as well. Rockstar are too afraid to act like rock stars.

    It is also rumored along with these changes that the developer team is being cautious not to “punch down” by making jokes about “marginalized groups”, which is a stark contrast from the previous entries in the franchise. Again, these are all rumors as more information comes out from known sources with some healthy skepticism attached.
    https://nichegamer.com/grand-theft-a...female-protag/

  2. #2
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    I've seen so many dumb takes from gamers in regards to this footage, and this thread is no exception.

  3. #3
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    I don't see much sense in even having an opinion about WIP material.

    I empathize with the devs. Reminds me of the casual criticism people always threw at Dark Mod, especially during development when little pieces would get out, they'd find little snippets to have strong opinions about and hope to "change our minds" -- as if the team hadn't already had heated debates ad nauseum on exactly what they're talking about over more than 1000 posts that go light years beyond what they're imagining the issue to be.

    I don't think I could last long in professional game development having to answer to gamers of all people.
    They're not the people you can really trust to know what goes into making a good game.

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    As obnoxious as all the culture warriors are, it is at least a little funny to hear complaints about the game looking unfinished.

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    "I can't believe this house looks so bad."



    https://twitter.com/BobbyStein/statu...67026333962240

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    Quote Originally Posted by demagogue View Post
    I don't see much sense in even having an opinion about WIP material.

    I empathize with the devs. Reminds me of the casual criticism people always threw at Dark Mod, especially during development when little pieces would get out, they'd find little snippets to have strong opinions about and hope to "change our minds" -- as if the team hadn't already had heated debates ad nauseum on exactly what they're talking about over more than 1000 posts that go light years beyond what they're imagining the issue to be.

    I don't think I could last long in professional game development having to answer to gamers of all people.
    They're not the people you can really trust to know what goes into making a good game.
    Not sure I agree, other than that complaining about the visuals in leaked early footage is stupid. An insular development team is at risk of getting used to the smell of their farts. See Thief 4.

    Once your game is out, those gamers are the people who are going to decide whether you made a good game or not. And if you're doing this for a living, they are your source of income. So if you can't convince your target audience that you're making the right design decisions, you're probably not making the right design decisions, assuming your intention is to make money by selling it to them. And if you're not soliciting or taking feedback on board, then you really don't know where you stand. Seems obvious to me anyway. None of that requires taking input directly from the public though. I think it's more a matter of seeking input from people outside of the team, both developers and play testers representative of the target audience.

    Anyway, I am curious to see how Rock Star navigates around hot button issues and workplace culture change while trying to retain its irreverent sense of humor.

  7. #7
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    The situation is a bit more nuanced than that. Gamers as a group aren't a monolithic population with strong, unified opinions -- unless it's the vocal minority of incel dumbfucks responsible for things like death threats and review bombing because of moves towards inclusivity or different art styles*. Developers would do well to ignore shitheels of that ilk, and we have a great case in point with the OP here.

    If there's actual criticism that has bearing on the important bits of design for the majority of your players, then I'd agree that it's important to at least look at those takes (which you seem to be talking about anyway by mentioning external devs and playtesters). You won't find that the vast majority of players are able to articulate more nuanced criticism of design or mechanics in a way that's useful though, because a) that's not easy for the average person to do, and b) players usually don't actually know what they want.


    *I'm mildly incredulous that, as I was typing these words, they actually represent the reality we live in.
    Last edited by Sulphur; 20th Sep 2022 at 00:30.

  8. #8
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    Not sure I agree, other than that complaining about the visuals in leaked early footage is stupid. An insular development team is at risk of getting used to the smell of their farts. See Thief 4.
    Well you're right about a difference of opinion! The problem with Thief 4 in my view was definitely pandering to the lowest common focus group denominator and not being insular enough. LGS making The Dark Project is closer to what I would picture as an insular development team that wanted to make a cool game first and had no really clear picture what their audience wanted, except hoping that they thought it'd be fun like they did.

    But anyway I was talking more specifically about my experience in a dev team listening to fans talk about what they wanted TDM to be, and understanding what they understood and what they didn't.

    It's a mixed bag. I shouldn't be too reductive. But there are a lot of things gamers don't understand about how games work to understand why their idea, which sounds good in their head, is either (1) totally unworkable in the code (for technical reasons like memory allocation or just not fitting with other systems well) or (2) is actually awful in practice, but you wouldn't have guessed it until you've playtested it for a while, or (3) seems good at first by itself, but after a few hours of playing with it, you realize it actually fatally compromises or messes the game up. It doesn't fit with the whole package.

    So if I could be a little more nuanced in what I'm trying to say, fans know what they want at the high level, and their opinions can be trusted at that level, but they can have bad opinions down in the weeds, not because the ideas are bad per se, but just because they don't know how the code works or they haven't play tested it.

    I mean, the assumption is the devs are probably thinking like the gamers, because they're gamers too and we should all have the same way of thinking if we're working in a particular genre. What I'm trying to say is playtesting matters. People's first instincts are often bad just because they can't have the playtesting in their mind until they do it. But when the devs do it, they'll usually know how the gamers themselves will receive it. It's a funny thing, but I've seen it happen a lot of times. The devs can predict what gamers will think after they've gone through the 100s of hours of testing, even if the gamers themselves don't see it coming. But if you could actually get those gamers into the discussion threads and catch them up to speed, which I've also seen happen lots of times, 9 times out of 10 they'll come on board with the team consensus too. It's just how things work.

    I wasn't trying to claim more than just that experience I described.

  9. #9
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    Quote Originally Posted by demagogue View Post
    The problem with Thief 4 in my view was definitely pandering to the lowest common focus group denominator and not being insular enough. LGS making The Dark Project is closer to what I would picture as an insular development team that wanted to make a cool game first and had no really clear picture what their audience wanted, except hoping that they thought it'd be fun like they did.
    Indeed! And juding by RDR2, R* is also in the business of pandering to the lowest common denominator. RDR2's aggresively handholding missions really felt like the result of developers frustrated by testers not knowing what to do for even a moment. Every possible bump in the road had been paved over, and any trace of player agency along with it. And clearly the game sold great so I don't expect the formula to change. GTA6 is gonna be playtested to hell and back, so don't worry heywood, R* listening too little to testers will not be an issue.

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    To be clear, I am not suggesting that games be designed by internet mobs. Feedback needs to be filtered.

    But PC gaming isn't the low budget niche that it was in the 1990s, where excessive difficulty was almost a badge of honor, and games were routinely being released in a beta state, to be fixed up later if they sold well. It's big business now, the stakes of failure are higher, and auters aren't succeeding like they did before.

    I disagree with you guys about Thief 4. I don't know if any of you followed the EM forums during development, but they got repeated, consistent feedback from a community full of veteran Thief players and modders that they flatly ignored, and when the community didn't come around to see it their way, they stopped communicating. That would be OK I guess if the decision was made to leave existing Thief players by the wayside rather than making them the core of the new game's fan base. But I don't think that's what they intended. It was more like, just trust us, you're going to love it.

    Obviously, they were hoping to make a game that would appeal to a broader audience, but I'm not sure they ever figured out what kind of gamers they were going after. If they did focus group the game, they obviously did it with the wrong group, because they ended up making a game that didn't appeal to casual mainstream gamers or fans of the series, and sales dried up in just a few weeks.

    Rock Star, on the other hand, seems to know what their fans want, which is more of the same, just bigger and better.

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    Thief 4 wasn't bad because they didn't follow fan feedback, though. It was a poorly-managed project from the start, with constant project lead turnover throughout its development. Apparently every time they brought a new lead in, the vision for the game changed and existing work was scrapped, and that is pretty obvious from the end result, which has great singular qualities but doesn't form a coherent whole.

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    On the other hand, the main guys were there the whole time:
    Stephane Roy, producer
    Steven Gallagher, narrative director
    Nicolas Cantin, game director
    Marc Benoit, lead gameplay designer

    As far as I can recall, the only thing they took on board from the community was getting rid of rewards for killing and the combat QTEs, and that happened very late.

    But I agree it was a management failure. If it was a well-managed game, they would have known their market and stayed focused on it, rather than struggling over creative direction.

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Some of the reactions and explanations of the Thief 2014 devs were genuinely baffling to me. Like the defence of contextual controls for jumping -- I remember the lead level designer saying that they restricted the player's ability to jump because they thought it would be too immersion breaking if the player was able to jump everywhere. Meanwhile, the game had things like 3rd person climbing sequences and it even took control of the camera away from the player in order to show you something, both of which I found way more jarring than, say, being able to jump over obstacles and bad terrain and traps.

  14. #14
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    A more likely reason is that unrestricted jumping broke some of their systems or level design in various places, and they went with the quickest solution one could think of instead of reinventing things.

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2006
    Location: On the tip of your tongue.
    I can't remember who said it, but there was a great quote I'm paraphrasing - something like "You should listen to feedback that tells you what's wrong, and ignore feedback that tells you how to fix it."

    If people knew what they wanted, there would be no need to employ designers.

  16. #16
    PC Gamering Smartey Man
    I <3 consoles and gamepads

    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: New Zealand
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    it is at least a little funny to hear complaints about the game looking unfinished.
    The this 2019 pre-alpha footage looks much better than finished Saints Row 2022.

  17. #17
    PC Gamering Smartey Man
    I <3 consoles and gamepads

    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: New Zealand
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulphur View Post
    The situation is a bit more nuanced than that. Gamers as a group aren't a monolithic population with strong, unified opinions -- unless it's the vocal minority of incel dumbfucks responsible for things like death threats and review bombing because of moves towards inclusivity or different art styles*. Developers would do well to ignore shitheels of that ilk, and we have a great case in point with the OP here.
    Ad hominem rather than engaging in actual tackling of points as usual.

    The "bigot trolls are review bombing and sending death threats" is a known marketing move in Hollywood to deflect actual criticism, by gaslighting and strawmanning. Why aren't we seeing this narrative in the press for House of the Dragon, despite the likes of raceswapped Velaryons? Because it's actually well written in both plotting and characters.

  18. #18
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Maupertuis
    Quote Originally Posted by EvaUnit02 View Post
    Ad hominem rather than engaging in actual tackling of points as usual.

    The "bigot trolls are review bombing and sending death threats" is a known marketing move in Hollywood to deflect actual criticism, by gaslighting and strawmanning. Why aren't we seeing this narrative in the press for House of the Dragon, despite the likes of raceswapped Velaryons? Because it's actually well written in both plotting and characters.
    I think that if you put the effort into an engaged, well-reasoned discussion on the views you usually insert parenthetically, you would find a couple of people here willing to engage you in return. (Probably not me, as I have low stamina when it comes to argumentation.)

  19. #19
    PC Gamering Smartey Man
    I <3 consoles and gamepads

    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: New Zealand
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchic Fox View Post
    I think that if you put the effort into an engaged, well-reasoned discussion on the views you usually insert parenthetically, you would find a couple of people here willing to engage you in return. (Probably not me, as I have low stamina when it comes to argumentation.)
    Already did so here.
    https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthre...=1#post2489437

  20. #20
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Maupertuis
    Hmm. I should back up my own words. I don't know enough about Rockstar to comment on that thread, but I'll speak up sometime when I see something objectionable and have the energy to argue.

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