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Thread: Thief 3 Gold - Merging the City maps

  1. #1
    Sneaky Upgrader
    Registered: May 2007

    Thief 3 Gold - Merging the City maps

    I've been having a go at merging several City maps into one, for use in a new version of T3 Gold.

    Update: The first test map is out!

    Disclaimer: There's no guarantee that the project will achieve sufficient quality to be the default City in T3G. What is guaranteed is that it will be released in some form. Other options are: as an opt-in part of T3G, as a separate mod on top of T3G, or, worst case, as a run-around demo map in FM form - to show what could have been.

    The approach I've taken is this:

    • Don't use T3Ed for combining the maps - as it's got a rep for breaking things when you move them around
    • Set up a system of volumes and scripts to track the player so that the original City sections can be emulated within the combined map
    • Systematically change triggerscript conditions that trigger on map start to instead use the emulated state
    • Fix whatever is still broken
    • Apply general polish

    For merging the maps, I've used a home-grown tool to manipulate the current T3G City maps exported to .t3d format. The merged map is then imported and built in T3Ed. Another tool will be needed for the script-fixing phase. The polishing phase could benefit from assistance from people who actually know what they're doing with T3Ed...

    The best City map, IMHO, would combine all the exterior maps with Garrett's apartment building, the Keeper Library and Fort Ironwood. The remaining City maps (Pavelock, the Abysmal Gale and Gamall's Lair) are mission-like maps that you typically visit once, so merging them makes less sense. Unfortunately T3Ed will not allow merging this many maps.

    So, having to drop one map, Auldale1 seems like the best option: With Auldale across the river, a bit of travel time seems reasonable. You actually go there less than to Fort Ironwood. And the two Auldale maps can be merged too, eliminating another two map transitions. This solution seems to work out, but it's right on the edge of what T3Ed allows. I seriously hope it won't be necessary to drop another map from the merge, because there's no good candidate.

    So this is what the map looks like:


    I like this configuration, because it matches the in-game City map (inset) fairly well. Also, none of the maps have been rotated in full, at the expense of the north direction changing in some maps (Stonemarket and Docks). It also allows both integrating the original maps fairly tightly and keeping the original in-game looks.

    Update January 2025: All the border areas (green lines) have been fixed up, including section-specific ambient sounds. The Library is now much better connected to Stonemarket, with Keeper Orland's balcony providing a view of the clock tower. This is at the expense of having rotated Orland's office by 90° - a deviation from the principle of maintaining the original appearance of the maps because it's just the best compromise...

    Red lines were intended to be optional new larger connections, with the one from Docks to Old Quarter being a tunnel or sewer beneath Fort Ironwood. These are currently not possible - there are some ideas to try but it will not happen in the first version of the map. The red dotted line is of course the unchanged connection to Auldale.

    The dark green dots are where new main gate meshes were needed. One to properly tie the sections together, another to hide 'overflow' from Garrett's apartment building into South Quarter. These are ready, as are quite a few other edited original meshes which were needed for various purposes.
    Last edited by snobel; 12th Jan 2025 at 10:44.

  2. #2
    Sneaky Upgrader
    Registered: May 2007
    Project status:

    ☑ Patch T3Ed to handle large maps and fix bugs in T3D import/export
    ☑ Patch the game exe for additional functionality. (City briefings, multiple fences, ambient light change...)
    ☑ Write a tool to manipulate and merge T3D files
    ☑ Create the merged City map
    ☑ Establish a system for tracking the player's location
    ☑ Edit the main gate mesh for use at the new map borders
    ☑ Edit other meshes for various purposes
    ☐ FM test map 1: Establish a well-tested base map for further work
    ☑ Reverse engineer TSD (triggerscript) files
    ☐ Write a tool to manipulate TSD files
    ☐ Update the conditions on scripts previously triggered by map start
    ☐ Additional script fixes
    ☐ FM test map 2: Full City gameplay restored, missions are placeholders
    ☐ More fixes and polish
    ☐ T3G beta release (hopefully...)
    Last edited by snobel; 5th Jan 2025 at 11:12.

  3. #3
    New Member
    Registered: Jul 2022
    This is very interesting. Please continue .

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2022
    May I suggest an approach that might be less ressource-intensive for you? Why don't you begin with the most logical ones, which increase the playability of the game the best - by combining Stonemarket and Stonemarket Plaza, and Old Quarter with Fort Ironwood? At least, these are the most logical to work on, and I guess it might still get complicated. If I remember correctly, Fort Ironwood has a dept that might not be compatible with the rest of the Old Quarter map?

    I agree with you dropping Auldale: The Shalebridge Cradle gets in the way of the exit to this quarter, at least if you consider the real size of the bloody thing in the actual mission

    And for Stonemarket and Stonemarket Plaza, I see a) the issue of new players not finding Terces Courtyard without the handy hints that they are in the right part of the market, and b) the clocktower has to be seen from both maps.

    Correct me if I am wrong :-)

  5. #5
    Sneaky Upgrader
    Registered: May 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Pat1991 View Post
    Why don't you begin with the most logical ones, which increase the playability of the game the best
    I thought about that, and it may still be an option, but only if the current plan doesn't work out. I already have test scripts for doing partial merges, such as Stonemarket or Old Quarter, so going the less ambitious route is easy.

    If I remember correctly, Fort Ironwood has a dept that might not be compatible with the rest of the Old Quarter map?
    No, the Old Quarter maps were clearly one map at some point, and they still fit together quite nicely.

    And for Stonemarket and Stonemarket Plaza, I see a) the issue of new players not finding Terces Courtyard without the handy hints that they are in the right part of the market
    That's true - there should be a pair of signs at the gate, just like there are at the other gates.

    b) the clocktower has to be seen from both maps.
    The Stonemarket1-2 maps also fit together quite well. The clocktower is almost at the same location relative to the gate. Currently I've kept the one from SM1, which is also visible from SM2 although it's slightly lower.

  6. #6
    New Member
    Registered: Apr 2022
    That's a mighty impressive project. I assumed some areas like South Quarter to Docks, Stonemarket to Keeper Compound and Stonemarket to Old Quarter were made to give the impression of the City being larger than it actually is, since the transition between those areas is hard to make out, but others like Gamall's Lair, Fort Ironwood and Stonemarket Plaza/Proper were very clearly separated because of console limitations, and those are the ones I'm most interested in seeing!

    Since you are working on this would it also be possible to remove some of the geometry that was used to mask loading in certain maps? This is most noticeable in the passages in the Docks to get to the Abysmal Gale and the entrance to the alley where Heartless Perry's shop is. They make a curve to the side so the Xbox didn't have to load two maps at once, but computers don't have a problem with that.

  7. #7
    Sneaky Upgrader
    Registered: May 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunderland View Post
    I assumed some areas like South Quarter to Docks, Stonemarket to Keeper Compound and Stonemarket to Old Quarter were made to give the impression of the City being larger than it actually is
    There's no guarantee that the sections were meant to fit together the way they're fit together in this project. Could also be that there were sections in between that were at one point deleted. Doesn't really matter - we have what we have and so we have to make the best of it.

    Since you are working on this would it also be possible to remove some of the geometry that was used to mask loading in certain maps? This is most noticeable in the passages in the Docks to get to the Abysmal Gale and the entrance to the alley where Heartless Perry's shop is. They make a curve to the side so the Xbox didn't have to load two maps at once, but computers don't have a problem with that.
    There will be no changes to the original maps that are not for bugfixing or necessary to facilitate the merging - sorry!

    I think those somewhat labyrinthic passages are there to limit the amount of visible geometry and so increase performance. Nothing to do with map loading, surely? Loading two maps at once is not an option for this game, it even quits and restarts before every load of a new map or savegame...

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    Quote Originally Posted by snobel View Post
    I think those somewhat labyrinthic passages are there to limit the amount of visible geometry and so increase performance. Nothing to do with map loading, surely?
    I'm pretty sure that's the reason, too. Back in the day, too much stuff visible at once would bring the framerate to its knees even on PC (I've never played on xBox). Keep in mkind that the Unreal Enginge back then was designed for a corridor FPS game. Plus, it surely added to the idea of an organically-build crowded City. I do have one large open space in my FM, but it contains only a few models to keep the framerate high, and likewise str8g8 in his The Bridge.

  9. #9
    New Member
    Registered: Apr 2022
    Quote Originally Posted by snobel View Post
    There's no guarantee that the sections were meant to fit together the way they're fit together in this project.
    Indeed, it's a shame that the map of the City in the Keeper library in TDP and the one given to us in DS are in typical Thief-like fashion very vague and lacking in detail. If there's one map we could expect to be very detailed it would be one of a cosmopolitan city!

    Quote Originally Posted by snobel View Post
    There will be no changes to the original maps that are not for bugfixing or necessary to facilitate the merging - sorry!
    Bummer!

    Quote Originally Posted by snobel View Post
    I think those somewhat labyrinthic passages are there to limit the amount of visible geometry and so increase performance. Nothing to do with map loading, surely? Loading two maps at once is not an option for this game
    I didn't make myself clear - I wasn't referring to loading two separate maps as in Stonemarket Proper/Plaza, but rather dynamically loading sections of a map as the player passes through an invisible plane in order to help reduce strain on the system. If the passages were straight the game would have to render both parts of the map at once, which would make the framerate drop as Beleg Cúthalion mentioned. Modern games still do this nowadays (including Thief 2014), but they typically hide it better by having you shimmy through an opening in the wall or mash a button to complete a QTE in order to progress (or both at the same time, like in Thief 2014... )

    Quote Originally Posted by snobel View Post
    it even quits and restarts before every load of a new map or savegame...
    Ah yes, the good ole "rebooting the system" method of Xbox memory management...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg Cúthalion View Post
    I do have one large open space in my FM, but it contains only a few models to keep the framerate high, and likewise str8g8 in his The Bridge.
    Interesting, I am still to play FMs for DS. The only place that made the framerate drop for me in DS (with the merged maps though I'm pretty sure it must also happen in vanilla) was the two-story courtyard in the museum which is a very open space with a handful of guards and many light sources.

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2013
    As i told you before @snobel its awesome project, really impressive, with great possibilities for whole community. I was playing T3 City mod for Metal Age in the past and experience from walking through seamless City streets was amazing. Its good to hear that peter_spy is working on some models for this, he is really experienced in doing objects for T3 and Dark Mod (if im rights he is also known as Judith who created some great samples in T3ed like Material museum). Last time i was working on rewritting part of the render in order to implement some nice graphic effects like soft shadows or AO (generally to use modern 3d libraries ex OGL3.2 /DX11) but frozen this project in awaiting for NVidia RTX Remix as its may offer even more possibilities,)

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    This looks promising! It would be cool if the two Auldale maps could be merged, with the transition zone on a bridge between them and the rest of the merged City maps.

  12. #12
    Sneaky Upgrader
    Registered: May 2007
    It's currently the plan to merge Auldale but the transitions will probably not change.

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    That is perfectly fine. It would have been a lot of effort to add bridges between Auldale and the rest of the City. I am excited to explore the merged maps when they are ready.

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2009
    Location: Ukraine
    Долгожданный проект.

  15. #15
    Sneaky Upgrader
    Registered: May 2007
    Google says "Long awaited project" - yep, and we're going to wait a year or two still.

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    I'm playing T3 right now and was double checking ttlg.com to see if there are any mods I missed. Keep it up this is awesome.

  17. #17
    Sneaky Upgrader
    Registered: May 2007
    Here's a long-overdue update on this project. The first and second posts have been updated as well.

    Nothing much happened for a long time but the last few months have been busy. There's now a materials import plugin for Blender and a tool for converting T3 meshes to OBJ format, so I've managed to make all the modified meshes I needed:



    (This is the 'tetris gate': Two of them fit together back to back, forming a double gate about 1.5 times the length of the original. Each end can then be given the same skin as the gate in the original map, keeping the original looks while integrating the maps fairly tightly.)

    I had the late realisation that rotating Keeper Orland's office by 90° allows for integrating the Library much better: The glyph door connection from Stonemarket (a non-original bit) becomes much shorter but more importantly, Orland's balcony door connects to the balcony in Stonemarket, providing a great view of the clocktower (which will not be revealed here ):



    This is a deviation from the 'keep the original looks' principle, but I think it's worth it. There's even some evidence that it used to be like this: The office's main door must be moved to the end wall for things to match up and that's how the room is shown in the keeper_prophecies cutscene (although the door is more to the left). Also, if you look at the map in the first post, the outline of the library nicely follows the outline of the (unmodified) blue additive brushes in the Stonemarket1 map.

    Speaking of that cutscene, there's actually another way to merge the library, which should be mentioned for completeness: If you rotate the entire library by 90°, then the balcony door can't connect directly to the balcony - but a new room could be added in between to make the connection. The advantage of this solution would be that the original library map would be (almost) unchanged - purists could just not enter the new room. And the new room would have the door to the left, like in the cutscene, and could be furnished to better match the cutscene than the current office does. There's even a couple of unused 'orland' textures, which match things seen in the cutscene...
    Unfortunately, the glyph door connection becomes much longer with this solution. Also, it's more work.

    There's going to be a test map soon, probably next weekend, which I'll post in the FM forum to hopefully reach more testers. If that map checks out, then I'll start writing the tool to fix all the scripts. I've already reverse engineered the triggerscript format and this tool should be much simpler than the map-merging one.

  18. #18
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2022
    Thank you for doing this!

  19. #19
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Awesome, one of the best mods in modding history when it releases. Hope some good YouTube videos are made about it getting it a wide audience

    Sent from my SM-S928U1 using Tapatalk

  20. #20
    Sneaky Upgrader
    Registered: May 2007
    The first post has been updated with a link to the test map thread.

  21. #21
    New Member
    Registered: Jul 2022
    Quote Originally Posted by snobel View Post
    There's now a materials import plugin for Blender and a tool for converting T3 meshes to OBJ format, so I've managed to make all the modified meshes I needed:
    Wow, this looks like a massive improvement, if you could bypass 3dsmax 5.1 for modeling and making materials, this should open up many new possibilities for T3

  22. #22
    Sneaky Upgrader
    Registered: May 2007
    It's an improvement - but annoying that 'old Max' is still needed for the conversion.

    Currently the materials plugin is only for import, you can't set up new materials in Blender and export as .mlb.

  23. #23
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2020
    Quote Originally Posted by snobel View Post
    It's an improvement - but annoying that 'old Max' is still needed for the conversion.

    Currently the materials plugin is only for import, you can't set up new materials in Blender and export as .mlb.
    this is incredibly cool. you can import thief 3 assets and edit them o.o that is wild! please share that with me <3

  24. #24
    Sneaky Upgrader
    Registered: May 2007
    Sure, I'll try to get the tools thread updated with the new ones.

  25. #25
    New Member
    Registered: Jul 2022
    Quote Originally Posted by snobel View Post
    It's an improvement - but annoying that 'old Max' is still needed for the conversion.

    Currently the materials plugin is only for import, you can't set up new materials in Blender and export as .mlb.
    That's a bummer. I wonder if it would actually be more viable to update the engine/renderer to use more modern formats for meshes, like .obj, rather than to wrestle with old formats that required DX8.1 to be displayed properly... I know, easier said than done, it's not like Thief 3 source code is available. Someone could finally leak that one, it's been so many years

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