Some of the floating skulls can be defeated, some probably not. The ones inside the central building of the underground area can be killed with sword blows, preferrably on unwary skulls. The rest of them most likely cannot be defeated; if they are killed at all, they reappear from the portals again.
The only good way known to me which allows to deal with the ones outside the building is to remain undetected for as long as possible, including using periods when the light goes very dim for a short time. Once Garrett is detected by them, run around them as good as you can. It can be helpful to observe which portal opens when; the portals are triggered by reading the stone plaques in the darker, green areas. I think if one goes counter-clockwise, one may fare a bit better than if one does randomly read plaques. But I'm not sure.
I never bothered with the outside skulls, I did at first. In the beginning, with 3 of them baring down your neck, it made it difficult. Playing on expert. I reloaded, and just ran, that's all I did. Run forest run. The upper deck by the candles is dark, great place to hide. It's not that difficult, if people just remain in the shadows.Originally Posted by baeuchlein
I just re-checked, with v1.0 and 1.1. The upper deck by the candles was only dark for me if the lights were out (or as dark as they can be), which only happens for rather short amounts of time. If they were partially or fully lighted up, however, there was almost no shadow at all on the walkways, and the visibility gem was brightly lit. Playing on Normal and running resulted in having four to seven skulls on my tail. They only broke off pursuit and shooting if I managed to get halfway across the walkways up there and find some shadows there. But then there was a good chance that the other group, from the opposite side, hunted me down instead.
I do not exactly know why experiences vary that much there, but have a few ideas. This part comes rather late in the mission, and the player does not know when the mission will be over, so chances are that all healing potions are used up and Garrett notably hurt, and if four to six of the enemies shoot at Garrett, he might get severely hurt. And the enemies there are not the last ones until the mission ends.
Broken parts in the lower walkway also make fleeing very difficult. Once Garrett was seen, it was nearly always reload time for me. And the fact that the enemies were attacking over quite long distances made chances of successfully getting away again smaller still.
Perhaps some healing potions nearby, such as in the necromancers' hideout just before the place where the seal is used, would have been a good idea, at least on Normal. That way, the player (and the FM author) could be rather sure that Garrett arrived there at least in good health.
Considering instead that the player could hardly prepare for this confrontation, and that the FM author can hardly foresee how much time the player spent in the city, whether (s)he fulfilled the basic goals only or the optional ones as well, and whether Garrett's health is then rather full or more equal to someone requiring emergency medical service, it is no wonder that at least the state in which Garrett arrives here can vary much. Not a good starting point for a rather difficult part of a long mission, I guess.
It was designed to be a difficult challenge, since it's more-or-less the climax of the mission. The whole arena was built around careful planning and stealth, with the respawning portals to reinforce the fact that the situation is unwinnable if you're trying to fight/brute force it. This is balanced by the fact that no AI at all spawn until the player is ready. You are completely at your leisure to explore the whole arena and plan your route before ever engaging a single stealth or combat challenge. There are perfect shadows on the stairs to allow breathing room and observation time. The player's health shouldn't come into it if you don't alert anything. I'm sorry you found it so difficult, but it was designed to be the ultimate challenge of the mission, and to reward patience and planning.
It was a challenge, but, definitely doable. I liked the fact that you could, *take it all in* and survey, and figure out what to do. I did have to reload a few times, just because. I hid on the stairs quite a bit, had fun watching the skulls. (In my head, I kept hearing the skulls from Undying, if you're familiar with that game.) I did try brute force, to no avail. Too many of them coming down on you. It was a challenge, I enjoyed it.
Finished on expert. This FM was a lot of fun to play through and I only needed a little help.
It's very cool! On the other hand, I found that you can simply outrun zombies and flying skulls in that area, both in arena and in that castle - throwing the very idea of stealth out the window.
That's definitely the harder way to do it, but achievable nonetheless. Multiple ways of solving problems is what it's all about though.
Perhaps because my first blind playthrough I did all that counter clockwise and never had the illusion of it being difficult because of that, it left me kinda speechless though having all that hiding under the city to be freaking amazing!
Thoroughly enjoyed this mission because it kept me on my feets on what might be hiding behind the next corner, little to my surprise what was to be expected, but what a cliffhanger!
Absolutely fantastic mission! Well done and thanks nicked.
Great atmosphere and design, with good gameplay that was varied too. I liked all of it, although I was initially a bit daunted by the zombie gardens / skulls area, as it wasn't initially very clear to me what I needed to do. Soon worked it out though. In the town, I Loved being able to use the thieves highway or the streets and the map was well designed which meant I didn't get lost or forget about tucked-away places.
Even enjoyed battling my way around the town again, at the end, getting rid of all the new bad guys. Still finished 1100 down on loot though, despite picking up some obscure and tricky pieces.
One I shall definitely be playing again.
Oh! I meant to do that, go in town at the end, and check out the bad guys, I just left and ended the mission. Thanks for the reminder.
Overall, a fun mission. Lot’s of back story. I didn’t have trouble with the skulls or zombies down below. Played on expert. I found it pretty easy to avoid confrontations by hiding in very dark areas and only doing actions when no one was around. I did not confront any AI outside of the upside down “temple”, but I did wack all of them inside. 5 hits with a blackjack works on skulls, as suggested. Seems like there are no re-spawns inside either.
I found only a few secrets and was short by about 1200 on loot, so I’ll have to play this again sometime. I didn’t carefully explore some places in town, so there’s some new stuff to see for me and find. It’s nice to know I can play this again sometime and experience some new things. I haven’t read the secrets spoilers, so I get to find them all without help.
Coming back to the "flying skulls problem" one last time... Yes, the shadows on the stairs are good enough to hide, regardless of whether the lights elsewhere are currently bright or rather dark. The enemies only detect me when they're very close. If they're on my tail, I could run away, hide on some stairs that are far away enough from both groups of the skulls, and then wait for an opportunity to continue. The idea of careful exploring and then planning any move has one weak point, though. It's not so common in FMs (AFAIK) for a plaque/stone plate that can be read to trigger the arrival of enemies. Once the player reads the first plate, the first opponents appear, but the player might not notice it in time and/or miss the fact that reading the plate and getting company are connected. Maybe a readable hinting at that, possibly only on lower difficulty levels, would have been better.
Tbh i have no idea how you could miss the arrival of the enemies after reading the plague. As soon as you frob it, zombies roam the island with their super annoying zombie sounds
I did not miss them, but how should I plan in advance for that?
You mean that it´d be better that the player is warned about the appearing of the enemies BEFORE frobbing the plate? That might indeed be helpful but I think it was not done purposely so as to make the whole thing more difficult.
But if you want to look around without the enemies roaming around, you can easily reload and take a look around before you frob all of the plates.
Apparently, I could write whole books here without people understanding me. Continuing this part of the discussion is therefore pointless for me.
Excellent FM, I'm having a good time as usual when playing your missions. I've explored most of the city area so far, nice to have so many references to your other FMs. A question got into my head regarding: the letter by Victor Levitt means, by storyline he is neither the murderer, nor the victim framed for the theft in The Violent End of Duncan Malveine?
Or this mission takes place before The Violent End of Duncan Malveine.Excellent FM, I'm having a good time as usual when playing your missions. I've explored most of the city area so far, nice to have so many references to your other FMs. A question got into my head regarding: the letter by Victor Levitt means, by storyline he is neither the murderer, nor the victim framed for the theft in The Violent End of Duncan Malveine?
Hello, this is so stupid but i have problems with entering the theatre. Can you give me hints please?
This mission is AWESOME!!
Last edited by Cheela; 4th Dec 2022 at 15:56.
Okay try searching the building across from the Art Museum with the vases. Bigger spoiler look for a key laying out somewhere.
Hey, don't wanna read the thread anymore 'cause I already spoiled a few things looking for an answer, but how many entrances to sneak into the theater are there? I count two. Those would be the main street entry; and the sidedoor, to which I already got the key for. And none through the roofs nor in the sewers.
Is there any more ways to sneak into the theater?
edit: didn't found any more than those listed.
Loved the mission btw, I don't remember playing another Nicked in the style of classic thief (except the first level of Catacombs), they all have different aesthetics as far as I remember, and I have to say it was superb.
Last edited by Kubrick; 5th Dec 2022 at 20:42.
I don't think there is ANY other way into the theater except with the key.
Yes, you need the key and yes there are only two entrances (main doors and side door). I nearly had a sewer entrance but the cells were better used elsewhere.
If the first part, the Catacombs of Knoss was vertical city exploration changing into Bonehoard turned to eleven in part 2, then this is basically Song of the Caverns turning into The Sword on max settings. Which is good, both are good successor-worthy missions.
So here are some of my thoughts about it:
All the time I was thinking that there will be part two with actual descent after keystone is placed (and obvious player HP restore inbetween misssions), so I conserved all the items to the max for them to carry over into next mission and only used healing to that point. ...and then I discovered that city streets are changing after final dialogue and basically player is allowed to leave or explore changed distruct further in the new circumstances. Would be cool to leave some healing potions at the return to Tybald for that case. Or maybe even some changed city geometry with dead and mages and mechanists wreaking havoc on the streets if we getting two-part mission.
Also I've visited the castle first, before acquiring the keystone, yet I missed antagonist's book with plans near the library (there were so much books and bookshelves there!), only the hidden basement which as I was thinking was enough to complete the reconnaisance objective there.
After which I got to the theatre to prepare ground for future returnal when I'll find the keystone, but there was a problem - no key! But fortunately I've made some show with roughhousing near the doors to get proper reception, some guads opened the gates and I was in. I've got to the closed cavern in the basement and grabbed all that glitters, and then I've realised that I've locked myself there. I'd add some exit on the nearby buildings rooftops from the theatre rooftop just for these cases so players didn't have to resort to noclip when softlocking themselves.
And I really appreciated that orchestral music near the crystal.
Last edited by To_ste; 9th Dec 2022 at 06:27.
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