New T2 Mission 3/19/2023: The Sunken Library

[Samantha1]

Awesome, this is how thief fanmissions should be. Gives me the exact same vibe as the OMs and I feel to be back in the good old days
Undead fanmissions often tend to be either boring or too difficult/annoying, but this one has a great balance. I´m still missing one objective, will get back to it soon

The key down there suggests something else. And I don't have to play and like every mission out there. I don't say it's bad, just that I personally don't like it. If you don't want me writing that, prevent positive remarks like the one from zomfg1234 as well.

RippedPhreak said the truth though. You don´t need to go into the pitch black spider pit, there is only loot down there. The key you found down there can be easily found somewhere else aswell. So if you enjoyed the rest of the mission you can definitely go back to playing it.

[Thinking Robot]

Awesome, this is how thief fanmissions should be. Gives me the exact same vibe as the OMs and I feel to be back in the good old days

Yes, you nailed it! Had the same feeling all the way, it could even be a T2X mission.
The spider pit was scary, but I personally had no problems getting out. Maybe the spider ropes are hard to see in the darkness, but plenty of flares could be found.

[Shadoo]

Just finished this FM and I must say I love it!

Most FM tend to be hardcore difficult as in there is only one possible way to proceed, sometimes backtracking or being forced to find the one key or even one tiny frobable brick.

But this mission felt fair. Many possible routes to finish. Shortcuts are optional not mandatory it still feels good to find one but the player is never forced. It felt like an og mission and for the first time in a while I could just hop in and play instead of inchin my way forward.

I understand the appeal of hard missions but I feel most went way overboard and I would like to see more moderate missions.

One minus point for the spider pit. Even if it was optional I, as a player, didn't know that the first time so I never knew when I was done there and even when I decided to leave it was very hard to do so.

[Ravenus1]

I was finished reasonable quick because keeping track of the layout was pretty straight forward.

I appreciated how connected the areas are, its nice just exploring to complete objectives. Instead of endless readable, puzzles you need a notepad for etc..

Very nice ambience and alot of fun. Nice job

[frobbin hood]

Sorry.
Like others gonna give this one up.
Stuck in the pitch black spider area and not able to find a way out.

Looked good for a bit though - hope you do another mission.

[Samantha1]

You don´t have to go into the spider pit. If you dislike it, why don´t you just load the game before you even went in there? It´s easy to do so. And you can get out the same way you get in. There´s only loot in there and a key (which you don´t need cause you can find it somewhere else way more easily) and then you go out the way you came in.

[Aemanyl]

To be honest, a dark spider pit is something Garrett should expect in a strange, abandoned place filled with magic and hostile entities. It's not like you are robbing a predictably dull Victorian mansion. That being the case, I believe the author should either put an additional disclaimer in the readme file or find a way to inform the player in game that the spider area is entirely optional.

[downwinder]

all this talk about the spider pit made me think of an amazing solution, during mission when you see the spider pit area, have garrett use the line "i should come back here later", and have a lantern somewhere in the main part of map so then you can have a permanent light source to explore the pit for loot later if you want, optional

what you all think???

[frobbin hood]

Good idea downwinder.

My gripe is, it's too dark - even the flares fail to show up the way forward.
And thank you Samantha - I didn't realise you could get out the same way you came in. Unfortunately I didn't have another save.
However, I have persevered and have got back out. Even with flares and knowing which way to head, it took me the best part of an hour - thatlower ropewas really hard to see.

[tone_lord]

Enjoyable mission.

Some elements of design created expectations that were not realized. The environment was rich enough to support more than was actually there, but I don't mean that the mission as existing was simplistic or not fun. I merely mean that plotting, items, and secrets could be elaborated or extended to take full advantage of the very interesting physical setting and the tantalizing hints of deeper history, backstory, and mysteries. There is enough "there" there to support a whole series of missions, in my opinion.

I have many questions about the library, the vampire, the dragon, the broken magical mechanism, the sewers, the basement, the odd literary bent of the craymen. . .

Or maybe I just missed an awful lot while still completing all the objectives (missing only 460 loot in the process).

Going back and reading the game thread, I realize I forgot all about the "Black Pit of Arachnid Horror." I found it and chickened out. Then when I got all the objectives, I forgot about it. I guess I'll have to load it back up and venture down there just for the "fun" of it.

[vfig]

i started this reply to Angder’s comment on youtube (since my recording from months ago has finally gone up on my channel), but ended up writing so much that i think it belongs here better:

The spiders lair was supposed to be built in such a way that you can escape even if you lose your flares. But I know for a fact that there are 2 lights missing from that intent. I have considered placing them in and updating it, but I don't want to get stuck in a cycle of repairing the same mission when I could be working on a new one.

a fundamental problem with the spider lair (well, apart from the spiders, lol) is having no idea (or at best only a slight idea) of what you are going in there to collect. various scattered loot is expected, of course, but is not the goal except for those players aiming to 100%. but having struggled through it and ending up thinking “did i miss the important thing?” is a real downer. in my playthrough i went in twice and was still wondering afterwards if i had missed the goal

you certainly provided more than enough flares for a single traversal. even two, as i unhappily found. but three traversals wasnt going to be possible.

it would have been nice to increase the flares dynamic light radius to 1.5-2x the thief 2 default. its not the year 2000 anymore — note that the radius does not make the brightly lit area larger, because the falloff is unchanged; but it helps to see geometry faintly, reducing the ‘sudden wall of blackness’ effect.

the vagaries of object lighting in thief means the exit rope does not actually get illuminated by flares. now it is not unreasonable for it to only be visible in silhouette, but the range of angles you can see it in is too narrow. a more practical approach would be to give the rope a small amount of Extra Light.

finally (and this is the crux), having zero-ambient spaces in thief where you face fighting enemies is a pile of fail. not as a concept, but because so much of simply existing as a player needs you to be able to see at least slightly. obviously the concept is to have an interesting and stressful tradeoff between navigating and fighting (and perhaps stealthing, but given how flares illuminate the player, stealth is not very viable unless you have played it once already and have a good idea of where the enemies are going to be). but simply knowing if you are looking ahead or up at the ceiling or down at the floor needs you to be able to see*, because you obviously cannot feel your neck. knowing if you are crouched or standing needs you to be able to see**. when fighting, aiming arrows and adjusting aim by seeing where they went needs you to be able to see. even just swinging your sword needs you to be able to see, because the sword is pitch black against pitch black. and yet in pitch blackness, where the player cannot see anything at all, enemies can navigate perfectly, and when alerted can see garrett perfectly too. and of course, you cant hold a weapon and a flare at the same time. and unlike weapons usually, nobody is going to have flares ready on a hotkey (even though there is one in default keybinds), because flares suck and are nobody uses them enough to remember the hotkey or set up a custom one. so youre also demanding the player fumble through the clumsy thief inventory just to try to be able to see what theyre fighting or see to get away from it. it all adds up to be really really really frustrating.

it is evident that you put careful thought into the design of this area—but lacking a clear goal and goal-achieved state, together with all the problems the engine brings from existing, let alone fighting in pitch black darkness, the result is still a mess.

(an untested idea: making the enemies start to glow as they get alerted might be an effective mitigation for some of those issues.)

(*the compass actually provides some feedback on your vertical view angle, but it is imperfect, and nobody is going to be adapted to using it that way, even if they are aware that it can do so, which is generally unlikely)

(**footstep rhythm provides feedback on crouched vs standing, and most players will likely be able to interpret that, but you have to already be moving at a continuous pace to get this feedback)

[PotatoGuy]

A really amazing mission and most of all a great lesson in design of spaces. The perfect mix of being lost and still having an idea of where you are. Loved it, hope you make more, Angder!

[Gloria Creep]

Is there another dowload link?

[baeuchlein]

Look here; at least the first "DL" (=download link) does work. I did not verify the others.

[Gloria Creep]

Look here; at least the first "DL" (=download link) does work. I did not verify the others.

Thank you again for being there for me if I need an answer.