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Thread: Israel attacked by Hamas

  1. #376
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    It's still a lot harder to be a Muslim in this country than a Jew. Anyway, zomfg1234 is trolling and it stinks.
    Well sure, Jews have not attacked us. Also there is the whole Judeo-Christian values thing. We don't treat our women or other religions the way Muslims do... so far.

  2. #377
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Nobody here, aside of zomfg, perhaps, is supporting attacks on Israel (or jews, for that matter). But the elephant in the room right now is that Palestinians are being killed in massive, staggering numbers. According to even the most moderate estimates, more civilians have been killed in 2 months in Gaza than in 2 years in Ukraine, and, unlike Ukraine, most of them have been women and children. Children who have not been voting for Hamas 17 years ago or lying about tunnels or whatever crime warrants a death sentence these days in people's eyes. And the bombings have only been intensifying.

    Not to mention there is also the West Bank, where hundreds of people have been killed, thousands have been injured and thousands more disappeared. Settlers are enacting violence with impunity, backed up by IDF, and people are being driven out of their homes with nowhere to go.

  3. #378
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    You don't get to vote once a dictator is in. And there is no way to get them out if they are supported well enough. It's what I fear in the US.

    And what you said is all the more reason for a two-state solution with large fences. Perhaps once Hamas is crushed another leader with concern for the people will lead them. It won't happen till then that they even get that chance.

  4. #379
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Hamas is not a leader in any way shape or form. It's a gang of thugs who wield violence to rule. Among many other things, this can be seen in the way they immediately started killing Fatah members when they failed to form a government and took power by military means.

    Also, if Hamas is ever crushed, which many experts think highly unlikely, that will only mean another organisation like Hamas will rise, one whose doctrine Israel doesn't know and doesn't have experience with. Maybe it will be one of Hamas's rival organisations or something completely new, but the next cycle of violence has been practically guaranteed right now. Why do you think the US and the majority of countries have been desperately urging restraint and choosing targets more carefully? I'll give you a hint: it's not out of concern for Palestinians.

    And none of it solves the issues in Israeli occupied territories where violence has steadily been escalating.

  5. #380
    zomfg1234
    Guest
    @heywood
    See, I can get my head out of my ass and see the bigger picture. I look at it, and I see Jews being awful people in the context that goes beyond this conflict. It's not just that they're murderer hypocrites who lie just about anything, they deal with usury and they push propaganda that tries to antagonize anyone who calls them out. In my country they're doing all that, but also push this view where everything belongs to them, because they were a minority killed during the Holocaust. More of my own countrymen died, but these parasites are demanding property and other priviliges, while attacking everyone who doesn't agree with them.

    I don't give a fuck about your Ivy League percentages, when the actual experience reflects them being scum. Yeah, I get that in America they're idolized but everywhere else people hate them for acting like they own everything.

  6. #381
    Administrator
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Athens of the North
    I will be absolutely clear on this since it would be easy to misunderstand.

    Anyone is free to have their opinions on the subjects in this thread and there are clearly a range of these from the posts already made. The conflict itself, the approach taken, the governmental / organisational approach - all reasonable subjects and most posts here have shown intelligence in debate and discussion.

    What is not tolerated here is widespread accusations or hate directed at entire races of people. It doesn't matter who the subject of your hatred is, you will earn time away at the minimum. If you want to make those type of sweeping generalisations then please do so elsewhere.

    I'm not deleting these posts because it is important to understand where the line is. It has been crossed here and if it happens again then this thread will be closed off permanently.d

    P.S. do NOT reply to the post above - that will be deleted.

  7. #382
    New Member
    Registered: Nov 2023
    I have a long standing grudge against garden gnomes. I think they're up to no good beneath those jolly exteriors. I'll keep my prejudice in check though.

  8. #383
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    Hamas is not a leader in any way shape or form. It's a gang of thugs who wield violence to rule. Among many other things, this can be seen in the way they immediately started killing Fatah members when they failed to form a government and took power by military means.

    Also, if Hamas is ever crushed, which many experts think highly unlikely, that will only mean another organisation like Hamas will rise, one whose doctrine Israel doesn't know and doesn't have experience with. Maybe it will be one of Hamas's rival organisations or something completely new, but the next cycle of violence has been practically guaranteed right now. Why do you think the US and the majority of countries have been desperately urging restraint and choosing targets more carefully? I'll give you a hint: it's not out of concern for Palestinians.

    And none of it solves the issues in Israeli occupied territories where violence has steadily been escalating.
    What would solve the issue of Iraeli occupation of its own territory (because until there is an agreement to a two state it is Israeli territory) is a wall neither side is allowed to cross.

    I agree Hamas is no leader. No leader would bring down this sort of punishment on their own people.

    If Hamas is crushed and another rises then that will also be crushed to the detriment of the Palestinian people. Having a less jaundiced view of my people, I think the US is urging restraint for the same reason I want restraint, and that is humanitarian purposes. I think that there is very little hope for Palestinians if Israel does not succeed in crushing Hamas. You said yourself Palestinians aren't going to stop them. Certainly Hamas will not stop itself. Everyone agrees they will start the next round of violence too right? As a matter of fact, you say it will happen with or without them anyway, and I thought I was a doom sayer on this issue.

    No, Hamas being crushed and Palestinians forming a better government which does not attack Israel is the only way Palestinians have a future.

  9. #384
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Point Nemo
    This thread certainly has been interesting.

    I lean more towards supporting Israel's plight over Palestine partially because for a host of reasons but I don't wish all of Palestine to disappear or even a few Arab countries that I have extreme mistrust from my limited Naval experiences. Blaming modern Israel for the current situation isn't really all that rational because the problems really started a couple thousand years ago.

    If anyone wanted to put blame on someone you could blame the British and Churchill along with Truman and the US for pre WWII and post WWII policies and actions. Thousands upon thousands of Jewish people didn't ask to be persecuted in Europe and be forced to flee and to be refused entry by a lot of countries only to be crammed into a small area in the Middle East along the Mediterranean. If you wanted to place blame on an individual Israeli you could get angry and shake a fist at Ukrainian born Golda Meir and her controversial Labor Zionist politics. Of course it goes back further to WWI and all the complications of Mandatory Palestine and mass immigration from Europe. You could also get angry at a lot of other countries for refusing to take Jewish refugees thus forcing so many into a small area. That all being said Hamas/Palestinian tactics don't exactly win them any points with rational people around the world.

  10. #385
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    I have mainly two takeaways from this thread. Both of them ultimately seem to come down to blood.

    It's so insidious how people keep conflating Hamas with Palestinians (and Israel's right-wing government with jews, for that matter). They are not the same thing. This technique is not only dangerous (which is why I suspect some people are employing it), but it's also simply magical thinking. It's assuming that people behave the same way because they are connected by blood.

    Secondly, I was extremely shocked by Tocky's idea that you can teach people some sort of moral lessons or change their voting decisions or influence their attitudes towards you to be more positive by killing their family members. This sort of thinking is so alien to me, it might as well be orange and blue morality. As far as I'm concerned, this is pure fantasy and not something that works in real life, where murder only causes suffering and grief and causes more resentment, not less.

  11. #386
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Tocky View Post
    What would solve the issue of Iraeli occupation of its own territory (because until there is an agreement to a two state it is Israeli territory) is a wall neither side is allowed to cross.
    You don't own a territory just because your military occupies it, you just control it. This is something even Israel's supreme court has recognised, not to speak of the International Court of Justice, UN Security Council, and a wide array of other international organisations.

  12. #387
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    If you do not learn that sticking your hand in fire will burn it then you will lose your hand. That is a fact. I believe in facts.

    Also the territory you speak of was allocated to Israel as Israel when the state was created. That is also a fact.

  13. #388
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Point Nemo
    Quote Originally Posted by Tocky View Post
    That is also a fact.
    Facts can easily be manipulated by the newspaper printing the facts.

  14. #389
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Sure. Put your hand on the stove eye and tell me the fact your hand is burning is because of a newspaper article.

  15. #390
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Tocky View Post
    If you do not learn that sticking your hand in fire will burn it then you will lose your hand. That is a fact. I believe in facts.
    No, it is somebody else sticking your hand in fire for something your neighbour did and expecting your neighbour to learn from it. Except instead of hand, it's people you love and instead of fire... well, actually... it is fire. That is the nature of collective punishment. Very simply put, it is the killing of people because of their blood, nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tocky View Post
    Also the territory you speak of was allocated to Israel as Israel when the state was created. That is also a fact.
    You can read up on history and decide for yourself, whether Israel is merely governing its own territory that rightfully belongs to them or whether they are in fact occupying it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel..._the_West_Bank
    Last edited by Starker; 9th Dec 2023 at 01:03.

  16. #391
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Point Nemo
    Quote Originally Posted by Tocky View Post
    Sure. Put your hand on the stove eye and tell me the fact your hand is burning is because of a newspaper article.
    Who's to say it isn't? The truth becomes a lie and the lie becomes the truth.

  17. #392
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    Secondly, I was extremely shocked by Tocky's idea that you can teach people some sort of moral lessons or change their voting decisions or influence their attitudes towards you to be more positive by killing their family members. This sort of thinking is so alien to me, it might as well be orange and blue morality. As far as I'm concerned, this is pure fantasy and not something that works in real life, where murder only causes suffering and grief and causes more resentment, not less.
    I'm sorry that I don't know of a way to present a way of understanding the situation that does not involve dealing with the facts. The fact is that when Israel is attacked it will respond not only in kind but worse. Is there some reason you doubt this? Teach a moral lesson? WTF? This is not a moral lesson. This is a fact. Do you deny this? Ok then what is happening? Want to deny that? Fine. Deny it. Does that change anything? No. The fact is that when Israel is attacked it will respond in spades. Is there some reason to deny that? Go ahead. Give it to me. Deny it. Think that changes anything? No.

    You do not seem to understand me. Be as shocked that I accept fact as you want. That still does not change fact. When Israel is attacked it will respond. Nothing will change that. Greif and resentment? Do you think that will change the fact that Israel will respond to an attack with an attack? I'm accepting fact. YOU are not.

    How can you be shocked by fact? I don't understand this. Moral lesson? How about accepting fact?

  18. #393
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by mxleader View Post
    Who's to say it isn't? The truth becomes a lie and the lie becomes the truth.
    No.

  19. #394
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Point Nemo
    Quote Originally Posted by Tocky View Post
    No.
    How can you be sure?

  20. #395
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    I'm not shocked by Israel's actions. Saddened, yes, but I pretty much expected them. Everybody did, including Hamas. Especially Hamas.

    What I'm shocked about is the idea that you are able to enact some sort of positive change in people or instil moral lessons by collective punishment.

    Yes, the collective punishment is a fact, I accept that. But I do not accept the premise that it is a good or effective tool to change people's minds. You know why? Because my people have been the targets of collective punishment... killings and deportations and worse. And generations later we still bear a grudge for that. This is not something that makes you sympathetic towards the regime that perpetrated it. The opposite, in fact. And I can say that for a fact.
    Last edited by Starker; 9th Dec 2023 at 01:27.

  21. #396
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    I'm not shocked by Israel's actions. Saddened, yes, but I pretty much expected them. Everybody did, including Hamas. Especially Hamas.

    What I'm shocked about is the idea that you are able to enact some sort of positive change in people or instil moral lessons by collective punishment.

    Yes, the collective punishment is a fact, I accept that. But I do not accept the premise that it is a good or effective tool to change people's minds. You know why? Because my people have been the targets of collective punishment... killings and deportations and worse. And generations later we still bear a grudge for that. This is not something that makes you sympathetic towards the regime that perpetrated it. The opposite, in fact. And I can say that for a fact.
    If you want intelligent outcomes then don't' do stupid shit. It does not matter whether you think it is an effective tool or not. Bear a grudge. Fine. Do a stupid thing. Fine. Like it? Change minds? Not going to happen. Keep doing violent things and expecting peaceful results? Not going to happen. Hey, bear a grudge. Have the greatest grudge you want. Still not going to produce the results you want if the response is bad for you. Don't believe me? Fine. Watch. Learn. Or don't. You don't seem to understand that attacking is not going to bear the fruit you want. Moral lessons? How about the one that if you attack you are going to be fucked in every way possible? Do you understand that? You better. You will find out. Or don't. Fuck yourself all you want. Like that? Feel good being fucked? Does not matter. Are you beginning to understand? Does it matter when you are fucked because you did it to yourself? Go ahead. Fuck yourself hard. Does that feel good? Want to do it again? Fine, do it. Does that solve anything? Fuck yourself really really hard. Did that help? Think deep on that. Did your enemy decide that because you decided to be an absolute ass that they would cave? No? Then why do it? Why fuck yourself? Why attack? Why when the result is bad for you? But sure, do it, do it hard. Do it like October 7th. Did that feel good? Then why do it? Does fucking your whole society result in a betterment of it? Love that. Lick it's asshole. Feel good? No? Why? Bombs? People dying? Aww. Whiney whineykins. Maybe more violence will help. Maybe if you just attack more and more. Help yet?

    You don't seem to understand that I don't want attacking but I do understand attacking back is what will happen. Pretend it won't happen all you want and gasp in surprise when it does. Did it help? Make you feel justified? Enjoy it because that is not going to help.

    If you don't want to be fucked then don't do shit asking for it. You act like that is a hard thing to understand. Why? I'm serious. Why is it hard to understand that if you want peace then don't attack? Explain. I'm not talking about attacking back. I'm talking about attacking first and then expecting the world to back you up on it.

  22. #397
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    You do not seem to understand that the killing of children completely unrelated to any kind of attacks is not going to bring any kind of results that you describe, no matter how hard you try to fuck them in every way possible. This is because Palestinians consist of different people, and they do not possess a hivemind that lets them be collectively responsibile for actions any one of them has taken. This is what makes collective punishment so evil and why it is universally condemned and considered to be a war crime. Because, in effect, you are killing people not because of what they have done, but simply because of their blood. The Palestinian people as a whole are not responsible for what happened on October 7th. They may look similar, but they are not the same person.

    For example, the killing of a Palestinian child in the US is not going to teach Hamas any kind of lessons. The killing of a father picking olives on his farm in West Bank is not going to teach Hamas any kind of lessons. That is because Hamas doesn't care a lick about them and, on the contrary, welcome this kind of violence.

    Trying to teach terrorists by terrorising ordinary people is the most inane thing I've ever heard and this is why I describe it as alien as orange and blue morality. It just doesn't make any kind of rational sense, any kind of emotional sense, any kind of sense at all.
    Last edited by Starker; 9th Dec 2023 at 04:57.

  23. #398
    Terrorists aren't going to "learn any moral lessons." The only way for Israel to be safe is to make the Palestinians more afraid of Israel then they are of Hamas. For the past few decades the Palestinians have either cheered Hamas on or simply not cared, because there were no consequences for doing so.

    In the future maybe when some Hamas guy starts shooting his mouth off about killing Jews, the other Palestinians should beat the piss out of him and turn him over to Israel before he can carry out the attack. Thus no attack = their homes don't get blown up in response.


    you are killing people not because of what they have done, but simply because of their blood.
    That's what Hamas did on 10/7. Maybe they should have thought about this beforehand.

  24. #399
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    If you are doing what the terrorists are doing, maybe it's time for some self-reflection.

    Also, I'm pretty sure Hamas did think about it beforehand with the exact goal of provoking Israel into doing what they are doing. It's pretty much all there in the manual.

  25. #400
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2009
    Location: thiefgold.com
    I'll say one thing. As bad as Israel is in treating the Palestinians, they didn't resort to brutal sexual violence and rape, as was recently confirmed Hamas did October 7th (you can look it up yourself, it's a tough read)

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