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Thread: Israel attacked by Hamas

  1. #426
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Quote Originally Posted by mxleader View Post
    Who's counting the bodies? Is an independent organization doing these counts or at least verifying them? Every body count from Hamas is about as believable as the US body counts of NVA and Vietcong guerrillas during the Vietnam war.
    https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ue-2023-12-06/

    Point is, disproportional response. Not only disproportionate in the casualty count but in the hue and cry over deaths. Likud kills thousands of civilians and it's just the price of war. Hamas kills ten soldiers and it's headline news.

  2. #427
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    I think you know Hamas has killed more than soldiers and did it first. As a matter of fact, the key word is response. There is never a "okay boys, time to knock off, we have reached the even quota" in war. Or do you think Israel should take a lot of young female Palestinians and rape them now?

    I too think it is past time to hunt down Hamas on foot to lessen civilian casualties though. Palestinians will never have a future until Hamas is gone. Surely we can all agree on that?

  3. #428
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Point Nemo
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicker View Post
    Point is, disproportional response. Not only disproportionate in the casualty count but in the hue and cry over deaths. Likud kills thousands of civilians and it's just the price of war. Hamas kills ten soldiers and it's headline news.
    To be fair Hamas is roughly 20-25k strong and is made up of civilian militant terrorists. It's estimated that 75% of Palestine's civilians support Hamas without being forced to. Those are terrible death toll numbers but Hamas started a war they can't win. In this day and age there are far better ways to go about garnering public support for your plight than kidnapping civilians from a neighboring country and stock piling tons of weapons in miles of underground tunnels. Israel isn't going anywhere anytime soon and Palestine should probably sort themselves out soon or they will most certainly be flattened. The reason I say this is because Israel is backed by the west and that means the west has a foothold in the middle east politically, logistically and tactically. The US can tell Israel to back down all it wants and threaten aid but the harsh reality is that the US can't afford to lose Israel as an ally so it will fund them overtly or covertly. And the big and powerful middle east countries don't really want to support Palestine because they are destabilizing the region and that hurts oil profits.

  4. #429
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    Who estimates that? A poll taken just before the war showed 27% support. You can't trust any polls that are conducted while people are dragging their families' dead bodies out of rubble.

    This article has interviews with seven "current and former members of Israel's intelligence community," and they basically confirm the obvious, that Israel is treating this war as an excuse to cause as much damage as possible regardless of the civilian cost.

    “If they would tell the whole world that the [Islamic Jihad] offices on the 10th floor are not important as a target, but that its existence is a justification to bring down the entire high-rise with the aim of pressuring civilian families who live in it in order to put pressure on terrorist organizations, this would itself be seen as terrorism. So they do not say it,” the source added...
    “They will never just hit a high-rise that does not have something we can define as a military target,” said another intelligence source, who carried out previous strikes against power targets. “There will always be a floor in the high-rise [associated with Hamas]. But for the most part, when it comes to power targets, it is clear that the target doesn’t have military value that justifies an attack that would bring down the entire empty building in the middle of a city, with the help of six planes and bombs weighing several tons.”

    Indeed, according to sources who were involved in the compiling of power targets in previous wars, although the target file usually contains some kind of alleged association with Hamas or other militant groups, striking the target functions primarily as a “means that allows damage to civil society.” The sources understood, some explicitly and some implicitly, that damage to civilians is the real purpose of these attacks.

  5. #430
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Sounds like the perfect example of human shields to hide your offices in with civilians.

  6. #431
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    So that makes it okay to slaughter civilians who are apparently "shielding" targets of low military value?

    “Nothing happens by accident,” said another source. “When a 3-year-old girl is killed in a home in Gaza, it’s because someone in the army decided it wasn’t a big deal for her to be killed — that it was a price worth paying in order to hit [another] target. We are not Hamas. These are not random rockets. Everything is intentional. We know exactly how much collateral damage there is in every home.”
    Another source said that a senior intelligence officer told his officers after October 7 that the goal was to “kill as many Hamas operatives as possible,” for which the criteria around harming Palestinian civilians were significantly relaxed. As such, there are “cases in which we shell based on a wide cellular pinpointing of where the target is, killing civilians. This is often done to save time, instead of doing a little more work to get a more accurate pinpointing,” said the source.
    There's no logic in trying to demoralize Palestinian society by murdering them en masse. All it will do is create more resentment, and the cycle will continue.

  7. #432
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Sounds like a thinly veiled excuse to kill civilians without any regard to proportionality or military necessity (as defined in international humanitarian law).

  8. #433
    These "sources" are made up because no one knows if there's a 3-year-old girl in the building. No one is able to examine every building with infrared/FLIR and determine the exact number of bodies in it, plus their civilian/fighter status and age.

    Also "international law" is worth exactly the pixels I just used to type it.


    All it will do is create more resentment, and the cycle will continue.
    You're falling for another kind of propaganda here, the "tireless, undefeatable Muslim Holy Warrior" mythology. "No matter how many of us you kill, we will just keep attacking, until the end of time!" You're not doing them any favors by trying to make them sound like Terminators.

    You'd better hope that you're wrong here. Because if the Palestinians really do feel no pity, remorse, or fear, and if they absolutely WILL NOT STOP until all Jews are dead, then what choice does that leave Israel? Not pretty ones, to be sure.

  9. #434
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Quote Originally Posted by Tocky View Post
    I think you know Hamas has killed more than soldiers and did it first. As a matter of fact, the key word is response. There is never a "okay boys, time to knock off, we have reached the even quota" in war. Or do you think Israel should take a lot of young female Palestinians and rape them now?

    I too think it is past time to hunt down Hamas on foot to lessen civilian casualties though. Palestinians will never have a future until Hamas is gone. Surely we can all agree on that?
    The first paragraph was utterly unnecessary, Tocky. Nobody here, least of all me, is advocating revenge rapes.

    As to your closing statement, yes. Israel should have done that from day one.

    If Palestinians still support Hamas, perhaps that is because the alternative, Likud, is a greater evil.

  10. #435
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: The other Derry
    You can't just kill all Hamas, because you don't know who they all are. Hamas isn't an organization like an Army; they don't wear uniforms and there's no central registry keeping records of every member and what their job is. They're part of the general population. And Hamas is just one face of the Palestinian resistance movement. It didn't start with Hamas and it won't end with it. The conflict keeps breeding new militants who will follow in their parents footsteps. As long they have the cause, they will fight. If they don't join Hamas, it will be some other group. There is no way to resolve this conflict militarily. Besides, the current Israeli government doesn't want to resolve it. They're just inflicting pain and punishment as a pressure tactic to get hostages back.

  11. #436
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Mossad Time Machine
    Quote Originally Posted by uncadonego View Post
    Keeping a system where your kids play in waterparks while almost 60% of Palestinian kids are living below the poverty line just reinforces the resentment.
    There are water parks in the West Bank though. Five have opened in Jericho alone since 2016.

    There was a water park in Gaza too, but Hamas closed it, then burned it to the ground.

  12. #437
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2009
    Location: thiefgold.com
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    The conflict keeps breeding new militants who will follow in their parents footsteps. As long they have the cause, they will fight. If they don't join Hamas, it will be some other group. There is no way to resolve this conflict militarily. Besides, the current Israeli government doesn't want to resolve it. They're just inflicting pain and punishment as a pressure tactic to get hostages back.
    Endless supply of disenfranchised young men with no future, willing to die to avenge their family and friends

    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    There was a water park in Gaza too, but Hamas closed it, then burned it to the ground.
    A good reminder to lala land GenZ that these are not "freedom fighters"

  13. #438
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Point Nemo
    Here's an interesting Frontline episode regarding Palestine/Israeli issues: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000634281796

  14. #439
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Members of what has been touted to be the world's most virtuous army are filming themselves burning food supplies, destroying private property for fun, and ransacking civilian homes: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/15/m...food-gaza-intl

  15. #440
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Maupertuis
    Posting to this thread stressed me out so much I stayed away from TTLG for a week, in which time the thread grew by three pages. Thank you to anyone who supported me, but I'm not reading that. Hopefully in the future I'll remember I'm not cut out for political argument.

  16. #441
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    More like guidelines of engagement, at this point:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ys-2023-12-16/

    Three Israeli hostages killed mistakenly in Gaza by Israeli forces had been holding up a white flag, a military official said on Saturday, citing an initial inquiry into the incident that has shaken the country.

    A soldier saw the hostages emerging tens of metres from Israeli forces on Friday in Shejaiya, an area of intense combat in northern Gaza where Hamas militants operate in civilian attire and use deception tactics, the official said.

    "They're all without shirts and they have a stick with a white cloth on it. The soldier feels threatened and opens fire. He declares that they're terrorists. They (the Israeli forces) open fire. Two (hostages) are killed immediately," the official told reporters in a phone briefing.

    The third hostage was wounded and retreated into a nearby building where he called for help in Hebrew, the official said.

    "Immediately the battalion commander issues a ceasefire order, but again there's another burst of fire towards the third figure and he also dies," the official said. "This was against our rules of engagement," he added.
    [...]

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