Innocent People in the Middle East, Victimized by Fascist Theocrats

[SD]

Obesity is indicative of malnutrition, not a high standard of living. The most obese Americans are generally the poorest, too.

I didn't realise you were a nutritionist, but either way, not at all relevant to my point. A people who are starving hungry do not burn 15 tons of Snickers bars.

This is not relevant. In a war, one side is under no obligation to make sure their casualty numbers match the enemy side's casualties.

Indeed, I rather understood the whole point of war was to inflict greater damage on your enemy than they do on you.

With at least 12,000 of the claimed 30,000 number being confirmed enemy combatants, one would be hard pressed to argue it wasn't working.

[RippedPhreak]

Plus it's easy to say "just shoot at the Hamas fighters and never kill any civilians, duh," but Hamas makes that a bit difficult when they dress as civilians and hide in buildings full of civilians after launching attacks.

Hamas assumed that the pattern of previous decades would hold true: That the US would allow Israel to strike back for a few days, then jerk Netanyahu's leash and make him back down, thus giving Hamas time to rest, regroup and re-arm. Unfortunately for the Palestinians, the US has become too weak to compel Israel to do anything. The US has no unified leadership (Biden isn't making any decisions or controlling anything), thus every faction or agency within the US government is free to pursue its own agenda without supervision.

[Tocky]

The US is not weak. Trying to twist this around to be an anti Biden screed is ludicrous. I do think those in power have seen the scenario play out so often that they support a change this time and secretly support the harsher response but nice try with the Biden accusation. They are hoping even Hamas can learn this time. They will find out if a negotiation can be done for the hostages they are raping.

[Azaran]

Plus it's easy to say "just shoot at the Hamas fighters and never kill any civilians, duh," but Hamas makes that a bit difficult when they dress as civilians and hide in buildings full of civilians after launching attacks.

During WW2, Soviet partisans would deliberately launch attacks on Nazis near civilian settlements, knowing that the Germans would then massacre everyone in the nearest village. It was a strategy to provoke Nazi terror on the populace, to ensure they'd then support the partisans

[RippedPhreak]

That works...until the villagers get so fed up that they kill the partisans on sight, before they can execute any attack.

[Aja]

I didn't realise you were a nutritionist, but either way, not at all relevant to my point. A people who are starving hungry do not burn 15 tons of Snickers bars.

You don't have to be a nutritionist to know basic facts about nutrition. That article about Snickers mentions that chocolate is one of few things exempt from Israeli restrictions (or at least it was eight years ago, when the article was written), which illustrates my point, that obesity is usually the result of poor access to quality food. I don't see how it's not relevant to your point since I take your point to be that the ill health of Palestinians is being exaggerated in the media for political purposes, and you're using their obesity statistics of evidence of this.

[Cipheron]

So SD thinks that because Hamas disposed of a product that had a safety recall from the manufacturer, back in 2016, it proves that they're not actually hungry enough?

The very fact that he had to go back almost a decade to find that one story should say it all.

Also, the product was 15000 kilograms, out of a population of 590,000 people. That's 25 grams of chocolate per person, so half a snickers bar, IF they had ignored the food safety recall and handed it out.

I don't think it's really proof that they aren't hungry if the local authorities refused to hand each person half a poisoned snickers bar.

If your entire line of reasoning goes "15 tons is a lot! They have lots of food!" then you're not reasoning, you're trying to shut down reasoning.

SD's whole argument essentially boils down to a claim that everyone is lying about starvation in Gaza because "8 years ago they threw out half a poisoned snickers bar, per person. How hungry can they possibly be?"

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/04/m...hnk/index.html

[zacharias]

Thank you Cipheron. I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks SD has zero credibility. He’s always been one of the most obnoxious people on ttlg (and yet bizarrely so sure of himself, Dunning-Kruger much?) but his recent posts are a new low even for him.

[clock123]

The so-called "Palestinians" started this whole conflict when they declared and went to war against the newly established Zionist state ( the state's creation was backed by UN's help ) back in 1948 to resist it, after they lost and the "fluidity" of the applicability of them losing any control in the region waned down, they went supernova and became upset and spiteful at any idea of living in a shared federacy/republic ( like the USA and Russia) with Israel , so they lash out at any notion of such up till now.

Just because you're weak and dumb it doesn't mean you deserve a reward for it ( there never was any conveyance of this idea in history up until the age of cultural decay which is now ). All Arab countries and many of their population go against many of the "norms" of the western hemisphere's intellectual zeitgeist ( they'd even go as far as supporting terrorism against the west ).
So unless you're an enemy of your own country ( which I assume is non-middle-eastern ), you shouldn't support Hamas/Hezbollah/Al-Qaeda/ISIS and their entities, there's a trivial reason why they're "evil" and bullying isn't it.

BTW, if European settlers hadn't established colonies in the Americas, instituting a form of government with law and order and designed and built the infrastructures that led to modern society there as it is - then the Native American tribes would still be warring with each other, living in teepees and doing rain dances hoping to get their crops to grow so they wouldn't starve instead of having the luxury of having grocery stores and all modern foundations which allow living in comfort.

The same can be told about the "Palestinians", look at the quality of life of the majority Arab-Israeli's versus Arabs in other Arab countries. Had the first dropped their grudges and agreed into living symbiotically with Israel, their quality of life and overall advancement would've been much better; but now it's too late, and that's not an excuse for having a "pity"...

[demagogue]

You're missing the point of your own analogy. White US Americans had Native Americans and Blacks in their territory that justifiably wanted to kill them, went to war or had rebellions, lost them... But at the end of the day there's one way to bring peace and normalize the situation. The US gave Blacks and Native Americans citizenship and equal rights, and in the case of Native Americans, often a level of autonomy over their own land.

I've been studying Apache land rights recently, and no one can credibly say Palestinians as a people are more war like and less trusted to live in proximity to whites than Apaches in the late 19th Century. Actually the Apache wars are still the longest war in US history. But they were given citizenship and equal rights all the same. There's no way around it if a country claims to follow rule of law and classic liberal values, like we don't ethnically cleanse territory of other races or nations.

If Israel insists on not allowing an independent Palestinian state, that's the only other option that every other colonial case study in the history of history has had to come to sooner or later.

Edit: Important caveats to make are that the equal rights of Native Americans and Blacks are far from being fully and equally realized in the US still today, and the US did in fact practice ethnic cleansing of Native groups in many cases, which still hasn't been adequately addressed. But citizenship and legal rights are an important foundation, and there's a process towards justice. That's the part that applies to this case. Equal citizenship isn't a silver bullet that solves everything overnight, but it is an important starting point.

[Aja]

If we all stay very still, maybe clock123 won't notice we're here.

[Starker]

So it goes...

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148876

Disturbing reports continue to emerge about mass graves in Gaza in which Palestinian victims were reportedly found stripped naked with their hands tied, prompting renewed concerns about possible war crimes amid ongoing Israeli airstrikes, the UN human rights office, OHCHR, said on Tuesday.

The development follows the recovery of hundreds of bodies “buried deep in the ground and covered with waste” over the weekend at Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis, central Gaza, and at Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City in the north. A total of 283 bodies were recovered at Nasser Hospital, of which 42 were identified.

“Among the deceased were allegedly older people, women and wounded, while others were found tied with their hands…tied and stripped of their clothes,” said Ravina Shamdasani, spokesperson for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights.
Al-Shifa discovery

Citing the local health authorities in Gaza, Ms. Shamdasani added that more bodies had been found at Al-Shifa Hospital.

The large health complex was the enclave’s main tertiary facility before war erupted on 7 October. It was the focus of an Israeli military incursion to root out Hamas militants allegedly operating inside which ended at the beginning of this month. After two weeks of intense clashes, UN humanitarians assessed the site and confirmed on 5 April that Al-Shifa was “an empty shell”, with most equipment reduced to ashes.

“Reports suggest that there were 30 Palestinian bodies buried in two graves in the courtyard of Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City; one in front of the emergency building and the others in front of the dialysis building,” Ms. Shamdasani told journalists in Geneva.

The bodies of 12 Palestinians have now been identified from these locations at Al-Shifa, the OHCHR spokesperson continued, but identification has not yet been possible for the remaining individuals.

“There are reports that the hands of some of these bodies were also tied,” Ms. Shamdasani said, adding that there could be “many more” victims, “despite the claim by the Israeli Defense Forces to have killed 200 Palestinians during the Al-Shifa medical complex operation”.

[...]

Turning to the West Bank, the UN rights chief said that grave human rights violations had continued there “unabated”.

This was despite international condemnation of “massive settler attacks” between 12 and 14 April “that had been facilitated by the Israeli Security Forces (ISF)”.

Settler violence has been organized “with the support, protection, and participation of the ISF”, Mr. Türk insisted, before describing a 50-hour long operation into Nur Shams refugee camp and Tulkarem city starting on 18 April.

“The ISF deployed ground troops, bulldozers and drones and sealed the camp. Fourteen Palestinians were killed, three of them children,” the UN rights chief said, noting that 10 ISF members had been injured.

In a statement, Mr. Türk also highlighted reports that several Palestinians had been unlawfully killed in the Nur Shams operation “and that the ISF used unarmed Palestinians to shield their forces from attack and killed others in apparent extrajudicial executions”.

Dozens were reportedly detained and ill-treated while the ISF “inflicted unprecedented and apparently wanton destruction on the camp and its infrastructure”, the High Commissioner said.

[SD]

So they've found the bodies they buried in January?

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/palest...x-203107397878

[Starker]

No, these are different mass graves.

[SD]

Really? Because OSINT has geolocated them to the same spot (lengthy X thread):

https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/sta...60892249612466

[Starker]

You don't seem to realise that Al-Shifa is in fact a completely different hospital. That is what the article is talking about. It mentions in one short paragraph bodies recovered from the Nasser hospital, but the mass graves that were discovered that had people stripped of clothing and their hands tied were at Al-Shifa. And that is the hospital that the entire article is about.

And I hope you don't need geolocation data to realise that Gaza City (where new mass graves were discovered) and Khan Younis (where bodies were recovered from a known mass grave) are in fact separate places geographically.

But if you still don't believe me, here are Wikipedia articles that prove these are different places:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasser_Hospital
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital

[RippedPhreak]

Disturbing if true, but I'd imagine that over the years Hamas has made a habit of purging anyone who opposes them. Could be a massacre from a year or two back? Don't know.

[SD]

The Twitter thread I posted mentions both of the sites in the article - the one with hundreds buried at Nasser, and the smaller one at Shifa.

Shifa, of course, is the hospital/Hamas base where many of the hostages were taken on October 7th. If I was a betting man, I know what my money would be on as regards the identity of corpses with bound hands.

[DuatDweller]

Are you aware that the Argentinian Nostradamus "Benjamin Solari Parravicini" says this in the last prophecy?

La Última Profecía nos habla de una batalla en la que Satán, reuniendo de las entrañas de la tierra un ejército de fuego, presentará batalla a Israel y sitiará a Yerushaláyim. La ciudad amada, como así era conocida, arderá en llamas por toda la eternidad. Nunca más habrá muro para tanto lamento.

"Or The last prophecy says of a battle in which Satan gathering from the bowels of the earth an army of fire, battles Israel and will siege Yerushalayim (Jerusalem).
The beloved city, like it was known, will burn in flames for all eternity.
Never again there will be wall for so much wailing."

Sounds like a nuclear weapon (burn forever, radioactivity).

Granted this can be internet baloney for all I know, but is interesting at least.

One thing is for sure, Netanyahu is gonna get killed by a terrorist the minute he resign for this atrocities and many in the Israeli army will be labeled as war criminals.

[RippedPhreak]

Shifa, of course, is the hospital/Hamas base where many of the hostages were taken on October 7th. If I was a betting man, I know what my money would be on as regards the identity of corpses with bound hands.

Agreed. Israel's MO is just to bomb the whole place and call it a day. Individual executions with bound hands sounds more like Hamas work.

[Starker]

Survivors of the raids on the hospital, the journalists present at the site as well as doctors and patients, all describe being stripped and bound by the IDF forces while they were detained and interrogated.

[RippedPhreak]

Survivors

Oh so they weren't killed and dumped in mass graves then?

[Starker]

Hundreds of people were killed during the raids and the hospital was destroyed in the end.

[Jason Moyer]

"Protesting Israel isn't anti-semitism!" Proceeds to spray paint actual Nazi slogan on my friend's sidewalk while defacing their house.

https://www.wtae.com/article/pittsbu...ffiti/60560856

[Azaran]

"Protesting Israel isn't anti-semitism!" Proceeds to spray paint actual Nazi slogan on my friend's sidewalk while defacing their house.

https://www.wtae.com/article/pittsbu...ffiti/60560856

How much you wanna bet that person is also a self proclaimed antifascist?

Militant Palestine supporters are some of the biggest dirtbags around, has to be said.

The younger demographic certainly has something to do with it. I never thought I'd be the old geezer complaining about the younger generation, but I am genuinely worried that our future is their hands