Reply With QuoteYou could also argue that dragging people from homes, raping and killing in the streets has also happened in every modern war. Still evil though.
Hamas routinely uses ambulances for transport, just as it routinely sites command centres and rocket batteries in schools, hospitals and residential buildings. Until I know precisely which ambulance(s) are being referred to here, I can't really add much more.
I would suggest that going door-to-door, dragging individuals from their homes, raping them and executing them in the street is orders of magnitude more evil than collateral damage in ordinary legal warfare. The latter is understandable and almost certainly inevitable, since it's happened in every war in modern history. The former is a choice made by monsters.
You could also argue that dragging people from homes, raping and killing in the streets has also happened in every modern war. Still evil though.
Killing large numbers of civilians is a war crime any way you try to put it, whether it's to done kill a Hamas member or not. There is such a thing as proportionality in war. Which Israel is clearly not following, if there are tens of thousands of women and children killed directly and many more indirectly.
The GC and laws of war have essentially become outdated by now. They were meant to guide behavior during a conflict between two European powers, but now we're dealing with utterly inhuman savages who will butcher a bunch of women and children, then run off laughing and hide in a hospital. "Haha you can't catch me, I'm in a protected building, neener neener neener!"
Under those circumstances there simply are no "rules" that are going to matter.
As the incidents laid out in the report demonstrate, it's not just a matter of Hamas tactics or fighting an irregular force in urban environment. It's blatant disregard for human life by Israeli forces. Denying people medicine, food, and hygiene products is not a matter of fighting inhuman monsters, it's a matter of being inhuman monsters.
Hey if Hamas wants to line up in an open field and fight in uniforms, they are free to do so. If they would prefer to hide in the urban environment...oh well.
This is why there can be no military solution to this conflict (or a terrorist one, for that matter). No such force is going to just conveniently line up to be killed. Not Viet Cong in Vietnam, not the mujahideen in Afghanistan, no insurgency works like that. And what is also constant in history is that killing civilians never works in favour of the large force dealing with the insurgency.
Interested to know what you think the combatant to civilian death ratio is in this conflict, and how it compares to others.
Last edited by Subjective Effect; 11th Oct 2024 at 13:23.
For reference, the global ratio is 9:1 civilians to combatants, according to the UN:
Ninety Per Cent of War-Time Casualties Are Civilians
According to the best dataset available, the typical civilian to combatant ratio is anywhere from around 42-63% in modern conflicts: https://aoav.org.uk/2024/netanyahu-g...gaza-is-a-lie/
In Gaza, we just don't know, but according to the identified dead from direct bombings and combat, around 41% have been males aged 15-69. Obviously not every male in this range is a combatant, but the figure is at the very least 59% at the low end where every male in that age range is an enemy combatant. But even if as many has half the males killed were combatants, the figure would still be at least around 80%.
Though that still doesn't account for the people who are killed through indirect means such as malnutrition or disease.
So that's from the Gaza Ministry of Health. I don't believe them and why on earth would you?
It seems that the reporting is incredibly unreliable. Have a look at methodologies section.
And this breaks down, and breaks, the MoH logic.
I quote (emphasis mine):Vooops! But they keep saying it's civilian males that are being killed!“Taken together,” Wyner continues, “Hamas is reporting not only that 70% of casualties are women and children but also that 20% are fighters. This is not possible unless Israel is somehow not killing noncombatant men, or else Hamas is claiming that almost all the men in Gaza are Hamas fighters.”
“It turns out this ‘70 per cent’ figure is contradicted by the statistics that the MoH itself provides in its own reports. It is a disinformation tool founded on statistical manipulation rather than realities on the ground. The BBC ‘factcheckers’ and other western media could easily have determined this for themselves, using publicly available information.”
As the identities of the identified casualties are known, they can be independently corroborated.
Obviously, media has a bias in reporting and any media reports are pretty much unusable to be used as data.Despite known problems with the MOH central collection system (outlined in more detail in the author’s January study), it is the more reliable methodology because it involves identity verification and counting of actual bodies.
But yes, as I said, we just don't know. The data is limited, there is fog of war, and the conflict is still ongoing.
Also, it should be noted that the reason the data has become increasingly unreliable is because of the widespread destruction in Gaza. As hospitals and morgues get destroyed, as the vast majority of people in Gaza have become displaced, the identification and counting of the dead has become increasingly difficult.
Last edited by Starker; 11th Oct 2024 at 20:31.
For more information about the difficulties in counting the dead, here's one article:
https://aoav.org.uk/2024/inside-gaza...idst-conflict/
[...]
Zaher Al Wahaidi, Director of the MoH’s Health Information Centre (HIC), provided Sky News with new insights into these operational difficulties. Before the recent escalation in hostilities, the HIC maintained a robust, real-time computer network that tracked deaths across hospitals in Gaza. This system, which had proven accurate during previous conflicts, was praised for its reliability, with figures that closely matched those later produced by the UN and the Israel Defence Forces (IDF).
However, this system collapsed following Israeli raids on key hospitals in Gaza City last November, which destroyed critical data centres and severed vital connections to Gaza’s civil registry. This breakdown forced the MoH to rely on outdated, manual methods for recording deaths, further complicating efforts to provide accurate casualty data amidst the chaos.
Challenges in Data Recording and Identification
In the southern regions of Gaza, hospitals lost access to the national database of names, ID numbers, and birth dates. This meant that every new entry had to be manually logged, a process prone to human error. Thousands of ID numbers, names, and birth dates were either missing or incorrectly entered, adding to the confusion and difficulty of maintaining an accurate death registry. In the northern regions, the situation was even more dire; there were no computer systems available, and hospital staff relied on pens and paper to record the details of the deceased. When the hospitals were overwhelmed with casualties, even this basic method proved impossible.
Instead, a simple headcount was taken by hospital spokespersons, and bodies were tagged and photographed for potential later identification. This rudimentary method led to a rapid increase in the number of unidentified fatalities. In March, for example, 81% of all new additions to the death toll were unidentified. The health ministry’s reports attributed these body counts to “reliable sources,” a term which had previously been mistranslated as “reliable media sources.”
[...]
You're not disagreeing with me here. The MoH data is not reliable, for several reasons. Some of those are secondary to Israeli actions for sure, but you can still not say that the MoH data is reliable. The fact that they lie on top of it, further obfuscating the truth, should be condemned and not supported by pedalling their bs as you have been doing.
We've moved topic several times and I'd like to go back to something from earlier in the thread. I've made it clear that I do not support the Israeli attack on Gaza and think there should be a ceasefire.
But I have two questions.
1. What do you think Israel should have done after Oct 7th?
2. What do you think should happen, right now?
Before or after all the ambulances have been bombed? How can you be in favour of a ceasefire when you still seem to only recognize war crimes on one side?I've made it clear that I do not support the Israeli attack on Gaza and think there should be a ceasefire.
Are you calling me anti-Semitic? Read the title of this thread.These are the fevered frothings of haters, really.
Yes, on both sides. It's in the title of this thread.Do you have any idea who these people are?
Yes, and decades of videos before that and centuries of history before that. Thus the title of this thread.Did you not see the videos from Oct 7th.
Stop telling me what I think when you haven't even read and understood the title of this thread.You guys were probably in the group that were appalled the IDF dressed as medical staff and not appalled at the reason they needed to do that.
Read the title of this thread.
Last edited by Nicker; 12th Oct 2024 at 02:25.
1. What do you think Israel should have done after Oct 7th?But I have two questions.
Improve their defences and intel. Infiltrate and distrupt Hamas. Negotiate for release of the hostages. Use the atrocities to get the world on it's side, seeking for a meaningful, long-term two-state solution to hostilities. Behave like adults.
2. What do you think should happen, right now?
Stop escalating. Stop invading more countries. Stop murdering civilians. Find a two-state solution. Stop believing that god gave them permission.
Or how about, what should Likud have done before Oct 7th?
Stopped the slow-burn escalation, occupation and terrorism. Seek real resolution in the form of a two state solution. Jaw jaw jaw, not war war war. Remove Netanyahu's criminal gang and the religious fascists from the Israeli government. Don't use Israeli citizens as bait to provoke a Hamas attack and create justification for all out war.
Last edited by Nicker; 12th Oct 2024 at 02:26.
It's all very well trying to both sides this, but Arabs have been killing Jews long before 1948, long before Balfour, long before "apartheid" and "blockades" or any of the other post hoc justifications that keep being invoked.
Just stop killing Jews. It's that easy. Most other places have managed it.
It's all very well putting a 1948 no-blame before date on things, but the inter-tribal wars in that region have been going on for millennia. The Brits just took advantage of the old rivalries, like they did during the partition of India, creating arbitrary, artificial territories and reigniting old feuds. Ultimately they assuaged their guilt over allowing the Holocaust in Europe by exporting it to the outskirts of what they considered civilization. You know, where the coloured people live.It's all very well trying to both sides this, but Arabs have been killing Jews long before 1948,
But all that's beside the point. I'll say it again. There's no point in laying blame, only in accepting responsibility for a solution.
If a madman sets fire to your house, you don't stay put, waiting for the arsonist to fess up.
Last edited by Nicker; 12th Oct 2024 at 02:52.
I'm not peddling any bullshit here. Where in the thread or the previous thread have you seen me quoting specific numbers from MoH? Also, where I am relying on data, I am using only the most conservative, most reliable data available that can be independently verified at least to some extent. Nevertheless, it's fairly certain that tens of thousands of civilians have died in Gaza and that a vast majority of its infrastructure has been destroyed, including places of very limited military value, such as cemeteries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel...t_PalestiniansOriginally Posted by Subjective Effect
Also, all you have done is try to downplay the civilian casualties any way you can. It's not an established fact that the MoH numbers are completely unreliable and I've outlined the problems with data collection above. Nevertheless, your article claims without any grounds that the MOH relies on media reports for their numbers and should therefore be not trusted whereas it has become clear that it's relying on a mistranslation of “reliable media sources" where "reliable sources" was meant instead and hospital spokespeople and media figures merely helped count the dead due to personnel shortages.
1. They should have gone after Hamas, instead of waging collective punishment on all Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank. They have demonstrated that they have the capability of a more targeted approach. They just choose not to.
2. There is very little Israel can do any more to rectify the situation, but they could start by allowing medicine and food into Gaza in quantities sufficient to prevent the most catastrophic outcomes.
Last edited by Starker; 12th Oct 2024 at 03:48.
As long as we are asking questions, here's one... Why are there hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers in occupied Palestinian territories?
I'm not in favour of that attack overall but that doesn't mean I think every single thing the IDF does is unreasonable. As long as they are they I expect them to conduct themselves properly and if they do they shouldn't be criticised for doing sensible things.
The idea that the IDF should just "go after Hamas" it's not reasonable. They have the ability to target enemies but not the time or resources to do that with every single enemy. Sometimes it's more pragmatic to bomb a building than to fire a laser guided missile at a car.
But I agree, Nicker, that Israel should just have gathered evidence after Oct 7th and tried diplomacy. I think they should have asked for help from their detractors with a deadline - help us stop these horrors or we will have no choice but to do it the unpleasant way. And then if you criticise what we doing you can shove it.
I've been in favour of Israeli evacuation of the West Bank for at least a decade btw. That's a land grab and it's only possible because of the ongoing conflicts. They use "security"as an excuse and Israeli behaviour in the WB is a stain on the nation.
It's not about whether to bomb a building or not, though. It's about using high yield explosives in densely populated urban areas and erasing entire neighbourhoods and residential areas in the process. It's about the widespread destruction that has displaced 1.9M people and targeted cultural sites and critical infrastructure alike. As well as some completely baffling targets. Like, what possible military value or benefit to the Israeli security is there in destroying Palestinian gravestones?
I've never seen this level of scrutiny of military action anywhere else. It's odd. I think the results are what's important, not the method. They aren't targeting civilians, they are targeting Hamas.
What explosives, exactly, are you talking about though?
Yes, I agree that it's the results that are important, so let's look at the results, shall we.
More children have been killed in Gaza by Israel than there have been in Ukraine by Russia in more than 2 years. And it's not just somewhat more or significantly more -- even according to most conservative counts it's the difference of an order of magnitude. And let's not forget that Russia is a country that casually bombs children's hospitals and maternity wards and drone-drops grenades on civilians in Kherson, so it's not like they are particularly concerned about civilian casualties. Many more children are missing in Gaza and presumed to be under the rubble or somewhere in mass graves.
More journalists have been killed in Gaza than in any modern war in history, including what can only be described as deliberate targeting of clearly marked press members.
People in Gaza are facing starvation and children are dying of malnutrition related complications due to there not being enough food. Most people are eating one meal every other day -- way less than is needed for survival, let alone staying healthy.
Disease is widespread due to the destruction of water and waste management systems in Gaza as well as the lack of hygiene products and medicine -- aid which is regularly blocked by Israel, including crucial items such as insulin.
Most houses in Gaza have been completely of partially destroyed. Likewise, most of the agricultural land has been degraded and the crop destroyed. Around 1.9 million people have been displaced from their homes. Some of them have been displaced over and over and over again. All in all, by tonnage, more bombs have been dropped on Gaza than were dropped on London and several largest German cities combined during the entire WW2.
Among the high yield explosives are for example 2000 pound bombs, such as the MK-84 that the US has forbidden their troops to use in urban areas, mainly due to their large blast and fragmentation radius causing an extraordinarily high number of casualties. These bombs flatten multiple buildings at once and cause lethal damage to anything around it in a radius of 120 meters (400 feet), with fragmentation being able to kill people and damage buildings up to three times further away.
The result of all this is a nothing short of a human catastrophe on a massive scale. And maybe you can claim that Israel isn't trying to deliberately target civilians in their bombing campaigns, that it has merely no regard to how many die in the process, but denying them food and medicine and causing starvation and disease is very directly targeting the civilian population. It has very little to no effect on Hamas who have stockpiled supplies for this occasion.
And we haven't even gotten into the destruction of Palestinian cultural heritage, such as the burning of libraries and the destruction of schools, universities, religious sites, archives, etc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destru...the_Gaza_Strip
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