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Thread: AI Is Taking Your Job

  1. #51
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    I think welfare is welfare regardless of which layers of the bureaucracy are administering it, which probably varied a lot when comparing the big cities to the single-purpose towns and the very rural areas.
    I feel like you're not paying attention. Is welfare still welfare if the layers of bureaucracy deport you to a rural backwater, which in turn deports you to a Siberian penal colony, where you die shortly thereafter? The issue isn't just how they get welfare. The issue is that, propaganda and theory aside, they often just don't.

  2. #52
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Maupertuis
    You're a treasure, Cipheron.

  3. #53
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Humans have been doing "welfare" for half a million years, at least. And it still pisses off the more conservative apes. But that's all part of being social primates. That and charismatic sociopaths, apparently.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    The issue isn't just how they get welfare. The issue is that, propaganda and theory aside, they often just don't.
    And that NEVER happens under capitalism.
    Last edited by Nicker; 7th Feb 2024 at 00:32. Reason: consolidation

  4. #54
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: The other Derry
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    I feel like you're not paying attention. Is welfare still welfare if the layers of bureaucracy deport you to a rural backwater, which in turn deports you to a Siberian penal colony, where you die shortly thereafter? The issue isn't just how they get welfare. The issue is that, propaganda and theory aside, they often just don't.
    Cipheron claimed that welfare barely existed because everybody worked. But not everybody worked, obviously.
    The state providing guaranteed jobs, housing, health care, and pensions for everyone fits my definition of welfare.
    Regarding the treatment of the disabled in the former USSR, since neither of us has any first hand experience, I suggest we drop it. (Actually, I just don't feel like spending an hour Googling to carry on with a point that isn't central.)
    Last edited by heywood; 7th Feb 2024 at 12:13.

  5. #55
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicker View Post
    And that NEVER happens under capitalism.
    Having researched social security rights (welfare, unemployment, retirement, health care, etc.), I know that these services become more reliable as the tax base of a government becomes larger and more stable and secure. We read about it all the time in development policy. A developing country is limited in how much they can spend especially on health care, and they'll want to especially liberalize their urban areas to develop them and build a tax base, kind of ironically because it's rural areas that have the greatest need, but also the hardest to get to pay for themselves.

    Anyway, even communist countries like China, Vietnam, and Cuba have come around to understanding their economies have to be liberalized to build any economic base for social services that are at the foundation of their legitimacy. You can't even have communism without capitalism. Cf. the role of the black market in sustaining the Soviet economy.

    Edit: I'll take your point that it's not sufficient though. I can think of a few ways a developed capitalist country would still slouch on social-economic rights, I think either ideology (cf. the GOP's irrational fear of universal health care in the US), incompetence (probably also ideology-driven; they're not hiring competent people in whatever ministry does the thing), or outright corruption. It's just that those are failures they choose, not that are forced onto them by unreliable or unsustainable resources.
    Last edited by demagogue; 7th Feb 2024 at 11:36.

  6. #56
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Yeah. It sounded like Pyrian was saying that neglect of the poor was a systemic feature of communism, as opposed to the shining counter example. Equating unaddressed systemic poverty with targeted political persecution is a category error, at best.

    I don't think there are any examples of actual, fully realized communist states. Plenty that wear the name, in order for leaders to justify and disguise their criminality. Being a 'pre-centralized' ideology, the excuse of communism is more prone to a swift decline into kleptocracy (from which rescue is near impossible), whereas capitalism offers a more shallow, less slippery slope and some legal guard-rails to prevent complete lawlessness.

    You can't even have communism without capitalism.
    But you can't have a humane society under un-regulated capitalism. And getting back to the thesis of this thread, AI/robotics is likely to be used to consolidate the financial grip of the sociopathic 0.01%, rather than benefit the rest of us. Unless we regulate the f*ck out of it.

  7. #57
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2024
    Location: Egyptian Afterlife
    We have communism capitalism, or China for short.
    Depopulating the rural country side in favor of inhabiting cities.
    Big mistake, without farmers who is gonna work the land, and get the crops?

  8. #58
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2009
    Location: thiefgold.com
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicker View Post
    Plenty that wear the name, in order for leaders to justify and disguise their criminality.
    Fascism with better PR, and more excuses.

    A few million people died in a state-created famine? 'it was a good idea, but was badly implemented, and the Party lost control of the lower cadres'.
    Countless innocents murdered? 'Hold up, it was only a small fraction of people, and most of them were holding back progress anyway'
    Cultural genocide? 'Bro, culture doesn't matter! We can destroy everything, burn all books, and just keep building better and better culture, and writing better books!'

    In things I've heard over the years

  9. #59
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Point Nemo
    I was trying out Google's Gemini last night and this morning and one thing for sure is that the current version is in no position to take over anyone's job. It is interesting to chat with but it's far slower than ChatGPT.

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