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Thread: A question I probably won't get an answer for....

  1. #26
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001

    My apologies for today's prolific posting, but I'm sitting around at work, quite hungover, with nothing at all to do. So you pay the price.

    A few thoughts on this thread:

    Charlotte's augmentations are referred to as "the Apollo Modifications". The symbolism here isn't complicated: Apollo gave Cassandra certain abilities as his priestess, and then turned them on their head when she rebelled against his wishes. Unfortunately the obvious interpretation in the game context would result in merely a rehash of the first half of Deus Ex, and I, at least, am hoping for something a bit more original.

    Of course, (in some versions of the myth) Apollo cursed Cassandra when she refused to sleep with him. I'm not at all sure how that relates to the story.

    The real question is whether or not Charlotte is the Cassandra figure, or whether it is the project as a collective whole. Being the No Logo of video games seems to necessitate an atmosphere of institutional paranoia, in light of which The Narcissus Entity's habitual signoff ("We are not like the others") seems painfully ironic. The modifications are given to Charlotte by the project, and so that chain of responsibility is obvious. If, however, we choose to take the Project at face value (dangerous), then the question becomes: who provided the Project with the modifications? Because, if the metaphor is to perpetuate, the chain of responsibility must be extended outwards.

    This kind of wild, baseless conjecture reminds me of the days when Babylon 5 was still on the air. JMS used to piss everyone off by occasionally replying to posts and making pithy comments like "Hmmm". I'm expecting much the same response here.

    But of course, that's part of the fun.

    Also, check out this story. I think Cassandra should have one of these. Outfit that thing with caseless plastic ammunition. Scary.
    ... deadening the flow of relentless biography ...

  2. #27
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Dublin

    Originally posted by Graeme:
    Really? I've never heard of them before, and I had assumed that they were a genuine Ion Storm invention. What's their schtick? Are they really supposedly an Illuminati splinter faction?
    Ah but you have heard of them, just not the name.
    Majestic 12 is the agency of US government that supposedly handles the UFO cover-ups, they are "The Men in Black".

    As for the link to the Illuminati, I think the generally accepted myth is that they are just a super-secret division of the NSA or CIA, and nothing to do with the Illuminati directly.

    Of course the Illuminati myth (myth?) would contend that all such agencies are unknowingly instruments of the Illuminati.

  3. #28
    New Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Waldorf, MD, USA

    Who is the Cassandra figure? Charlotte or the Project? That's not a simple question. I believe perhaps that this isn't an either/or situation, as we've perceived it as. Why can't they both be the Cassandra figure? I think maybe both Charlotte and the Project share the traits of Cassandra.

    The Project is the search for the truth. Nothing more. Nothing less. What the truth is or what this truth pertains to is up for speculation. But the Project finds things that THEY don't want us to know and perhaps we don't want to believe.

    Let's not be so narrow when we discuss what conspiracies or the type of conspiracies that the Project might deal with. It may not be something so insignificant as an alien anally probing your grandmother or the Coca-Cola Company putting brainwashing messages and images on the sides of their products. Think bigger. Think; everything you ever lived is a conspiracy. You are not what you thought you were. You are not who you thought you were. Nothing is what its always been told to you as.

    If someone came up to you and told you that everything you've ever believed about the world, about your personal reality is shit would you believe them? Would you even acknowledge their thoughts as anything more than crazy babblings even if they had more than enough proof to support them? The Project is a Cassandra figure I gather.

    What about Charlotte? She seems to be one of the only operatives for the Project, perhaps the only operative. She's the one who's going to use the Apollo Modifications to find the truth. She will, with her own eyes, see the truth.

    Now let's remember that Apollo didn't give Cassandra her powers as a friendly gift. Cassandra was cursed by Apollo.

    So you find the answers to questions you didn't even have. Questions you didn't know you were supposed to have. These aren't SOME truths. This is THE TRUTH. Singular. You feel a large personal burden to tell everyone in the world THE TRUTH. It's too important not to. You get on TV and say, "Hello World. Everything you every believed is bullshit. That's right. But don't worry I have THE TRUTH. Your previous lives are fucked. But now you have THE TRUTH. THE TRUTH will set you free and now you are free in ways you never imagined." And THEY would reply, "Fuck off you crazy bitch. Leave me alone and get the fuck off my TV. I might miss my favorite sitcom."

    Charlotte or whomever would have a large stake in THE TRUTH and in everyone excepting it. This is a curse.

    Charlotte is your Cassandra figure but at a far more personal level.

    These are my thoughts. More to come later I'm sure.

    Frankly, the Cassandra Project may be more about the questions than the answers.

    -Khan

  4. #29
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Dublin

    Yes.

  5. #30
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001

    See what the FBI have to say about Majestic 12 at
    http://foia.fbi.gov/majestic.htm

    But then they would say that wouldn't they.

  6. #31
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Cumbria, England

    Well, the document /was/ completely bogus. And any how, the stuff pertaining to majestic 12 is so veried that all the FBI could realistically do is deny there is an organisation going by the name 'majestic 12'.

    Typical conspricy theorists. They take a name, or an idea and then attach all kinds of mental alien/world domination shit to it.

  7. #32
    TheWatcher
    Guest

    Originally posted by Graeme:
    Really? I've never heard of them before, and I had assumed that they were a genuine Ion Storm invention. What's their schtick? Are they really supposedly an Illuminati splinter faction?
    As KG says, everything in DX is based one way or another on existing conspiracy theories as well as possible medical developments and social projections. Some of it is a bit mixed up (assuming the existence of MJ12, it is not a splinter group of any Illuminati organisation, should one exist) but it's a well researched game as far as theorising on theories can go.

    MJ12 is supposed to have been set up secret Executive Memorandum NSC 5410 by Eisenhower in 1954 (the reasons for its establisent are disputed, variously involving a contact, containment and study project concerning UFOs, research of fringe technologies (geomagnetics etc) and more). The 12 members of the original group contained the director of the CIA, the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense and the Director of the FBI. One of the more common accounts is summarised at http://<a href="http://www.abovetops.../mj12.html</a> although remember it's conspiracy theorists running the show there

  8. #33
    New Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Waldorf, MD, USA

    Well fuck me.

    I was just reading the first diary in the appropriately named diary section when I read this: "I don’t get to tell anyone about anything I see."

    That quote was of course from the vantage point of Charlotte. So most of what I said in my previous theory filled post is shit. Though I thought it turned into a fairly entertaining read, if not slightly chaotic.

    I'd guess that if Ms. Williams can't tell anyone about the truths she and The Project find then The Project itself won't be telling anyone. That opens up the question of what The Cassandra Project's purpose is.

    Why do you find the truth if you keep it to yourself?

    -Khan

  9. #34
    Member
    Registered: Aug 1999
    Location: Bath, England.

    Good question, Khan.

    Of course, it says *Charlotte* won't be telling anyone...

    KG

  10. #35
    TheWatcher
    Guest

    Originally posted by Khan:
    Well fuck me.
    I'd rather not. Unless you happen to be a 25 year old supermodel posting under a cunning disguise of course.


    Why do you find the truth if you keep it to yourself?

    Finding truth is one thing. Do you think the public are ready to know it? Remember that people can be sane, rational and intelligent on their own, but in groups they are panicy and unbelievably stupid (how else can you explain things like Big Brother, Survivor or the continued domination of western governments by money grabbing, power hungry egomaniacs?)

    Try a hypothetical situation to illustrate the problem - if you found concrete, undeniable, physical proof that the human race was being regularly contacted, and possibly maniuplated genetically or culturally, by extraterrestrials intent on -insert something nasty here- and you also found out that every government on the planet was already aware of this and doing nothing to stop it (or even helping), what would you do? Assuming you weren't dead, or worse, within 24 hours at the hands of a black ops team, would you try to get the story on the news, in the papers, on TV? What do you think that sort of revelation would do to normal, average people? What do you think it would do to societies all over the world if you could give absolute proof of your discovery? Would you be willing to be responsible for plunging the world into anarchy?

    Sometimes the truth is so important that no one can be told.

  11. #36
    New Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Waldorf, MD, USA

    "Of course, it says *Charlotte* won't be telling anyone..."

    Ah. This is true. I did a bit to much assuming here. Perhaps the ones behind The Project will be disseminating the information found. It's all speculation at this point.

    "I'd rather not. Unless you happen to be a 25 year old supermodel posting under a cunning disguise of course."

    Damn. You have seen through my clever ruse. I'm only 24 though. But how perceptive of you to guess so close to my actual age. Impressive. I'm in fact so attractive men's groins explode with pleasure when I walk by wearing baggy slacks and a turtle neck. Anything less and you'd have to call in the sector 7, F classified containment and clean up team. Men's undergarments across the world fear me.

    "Remember that people can be sane, rational and intelligent on their own, but in groups they are panicy and unbelievably stupid."

    Most people can be unbelievably stupid on their own. They don't need help from other people in that regard. But yes people tend to be a bit more panicky in large groups. A sort of mob mentality.

    "What do you think that sort of revelation would do to normal, average people? What do you think it would do to societies all over the world if you could give absolute proof of your discovery? Would you be willing to be responsible for plunging the world into anarchy?"

    This is a good point. People would probably freak out and do stupid irresponsible shit all over the world. Governements would crumble and anarchy would reign supreme (I'm being a bit melodramatic aren't I?). Invariably bad things would happen and much life would be lost. It would be a heavy burden on one's conscience.

    "Sometimes the truth is so important that no one can be told."

    And sometimes the truth is too important not to be told. Unfortunately, the truth, like most things, is not a black and white issue. It really becomes an issue of one's personal beliefs and how important the truth is to a person. Do the risks and the bad shit outweight the importance of the truth? Will the sacrifice of some now provide a large benefit to many later?

    Is truth the most important thing?

  12. #37
    New Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Scotland

    Yes. Truth is beauty. I hate dishonesty and equivocation in all their forms. Especially when those in authority lie to us. The truth must be told.

    But it's never going to happen. The world is too big, and peoples' minds too narrow. As far as I can see, the truth disappeared when we started on the slippery slope to capitalist democracy.

    Or the truth could be "People=Shit". That would be funny...
    PC Gamer fansite
    "Nurse, the screens!"

  13. #38
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001

    "What do you think that sort of revelation would do to normal, average people?"

    Read James.

  14. #39
    TheWatcher
    Guest

    Originally posted by Khan:

    Most people can be unbelievably stupid on their own. They don't need help from other people in that regard.
    Well I tend not to stress that point on most forums after I was branded a pessimistic, elitist, cynical bastard on another forum


    This is a good point. People would probably freak out and do stupid irresponsible shit all over the world. Governements would crumble and anarchy would reign supreme (I'm being a bit melodramatic aren't I?).
    Or, to quote George Ward, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Air in 1953 while talking to Desmond Leslie (second cousin to Winston Churchill and UFO researcher) "What am I to say? I know it wasn't a balloon. You know it wasn't a balloon. But until I've got a saucer on the ground in Hyde Park and can charge the public sixpence a go to enter, it must be balloons, otherwise the Government would fall"

    But yes, you've pretty much hit the nail on the head - anarchy would be the start.

    Is truth the most important thing?
    Ah, one of the hard ones.

  15. #40
    New Member
    Registered: Aug 2001
    Location: SD

    i absoulutley love conspiracy therories and in the box deus ex came in there was a poster telling the cast, the weapons, and the conspiracy evidence related to echelon, MJ12, A51, and the Illuminati of cource everything after 2000 was bogus but i checked up on some of those myths and echelon does exist according to the french, brittish, and spanish governments. they say the used it but never will again. they also said that they only used it to spy on crimanals. the US of cource has denied everything. also if you had listend to some of the characters MJ12 branched off of the illuminatti not the other way around. what supposedlt had happened was that 12 people were selected by the president to invesigate Rozwell. those people being part of the illuminati because the illuminatti is supposed to have contacts with all of the lworld leaders, which is how they secretly rule the world.


    anyway thats my thought

  16. #41
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001

    But why would anarchy in this case be bad? Sometimes you need to tear down to build anew.
    Anarchy as a goal is naive IMO, but as a kind of Ground Zero, a maximum Chaos which gives Birth to truely new structures it can be very positive.

  17. #42
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001

    Human civilization is not a software program. Doing a cleanroom implementation is not really a viable solution.

    Just look at the lessons of history. It took Europe 600 years to pull itself up out of the Dark Ages, and it's debatable whether the results were significant improvements over what came before the fall.
    ... deadening the flow of relentless biography ...

  18. #43
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001

    Hmmm... I think yes we are way beyond where we were before the fall in pretty much all aspects.

    And you must not neglect the fact that we couldn't have come where we are without the fall in between.

    To give a quote I came across in an Interview with Richard Garriot:

    Joseph Campbell says in Hero With A Thousand Faces: "A schism in the body social, will not be resolved by any scheme of a return to the good old days (archaism), or by programs guaranteed to render an ideal projected future (futurism), or even by the most realistic, hardheaded work to weld together again the deteriorating elements. Only birth can conquer death-the birth, not of the old thing again, but of something new."

    Also due to the nature of our position I doubt an anarchy now would be comparable to a fall into the dark ages in duration rather a couple of decades. The reason is that a complete collapse of goverment and economy wouldn't result in a fundamentall loss of knowledge.
    Therefore the forming forces of knowledge could work rather powerfull within this chaos where for the moment all political and economical forming powers were reset.
    This could in the long run and even in rather short term be very beneficial for Mankind and Society.

  19. #44

    CIM:

    When you say "read James" do you mean that the only proper response to the truth is to do something about it?

  20. #45
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001

    Originally posted by CIM:
    Hmmm... I think yes we are way beyond where we were before the fall in pretty much all aspects.

    And you must not neglect the fact that we couldn't have come where we are without the fall in between.
    I didn't say that we are less advanced, I said that we hadn't necessarily made improvements.

    For example, I believe that the political paradigm of the nation-state is only advantageous within a very narrow range of population and economic parameters, which we have just about surpassed. The city-state, while less ideal within such a parameter range, has many advantages.

    "A schism in the body social, will not be resolved by any scheme of a return to the good old days (archaism), or by programs guaranteed to render an ideal projected future (futurism), or even by the most realistic, hardheaded work to weld together again the deteriorating elements. Only birth can conquer death-the birth, not of the old thing again, but of something new."
    Blah. In other words: "There's no way to figure it out, so don't bother." Cop-out. Campbell has a habit of assuming that anything he can't figure out must be atomic, and therefore resist analysis.

    Also due to the nature of our position I doubt an anarchy now would be comparable to a fall into the dark ages in duration rather a couple of decades. The reason is that a complete collapse of goverment and economy wouldn't result in a fundamentall loss of knowledge.
    I think you overestimate the resistance of our information infrastructure. For one thing, modern books are much less resilient than their ancient counterparts. For another, the vast majority of our real technical knowledge, the meat-and-potatoes of our industrial capabilities, are stored in either highly centralized University library facilities or electronically.

    History has shown, over and over, that the intelligentsia and their associated institutions are the first against the wall in any popular uprising. So a lot of those libraries are going to burn. The electronic infrastructure is incredibly fragile, as originally pointed out by Schwartau and acknowledge by the US government with their formation of the NIPA. So kiss those datavaults goodbye.

    At the moment, while the vast majority of our civilization's key knowledge is still stored in physical media, the threat is somewhat lessened. The recent trend towards total digitization of information has me particularly worried, as it creates a technologically-dependant technology base. Any disaster, and we have to bootstrap ourselves back up again.

    The Library of Congress wants to be entirely digital within the next 15 years. Think about that, then think about EMP weaponry.

    I'm ranting again...
    ... deadening the flow of relentless biography ...

  21. #46
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001

    The fundamental difference is the distribution of knowledge thanks to the industrial and now the electronical age all information is copied a thousand times over.
    This was not the case in Rome, before a single fire by lightning, not by revolution could estroy much of the knowledge of the ancient world in hitting the library of Alexandria.
    The mobility and the unparalleled spread not only of information but of education, too would mean that the information would probably survive the first onslaught and thus be able to employ its formative powers afterwards.

    On the quote, when ever has mankind succeeded in conciously changing it's course? It is not a mater of resisting analysis it's a matter of seeing History through the right patterns, and the death/birth pattern is IMO very fitting.
    It is not no analysis, it's a different way of analysis, one that accepts that death is an inevietable part of life and that death is indeed a prerequisit to birth, without death there could be no birth without destruction nothing new could arise. And we have so far never been able to conciously employ this destructive forces they have always exploded violenetly.
    And on that field I am sure that Humanity has not evolved very far yet. What field is that? Why is it eventually neccesary to confront Humans with the Truth? and what would that make out of them?
    Gods.
    That's what I meant with read James.
    "He would give humanity back its primacy, and make make Gods of us all, Gods. Gods"

    BTW on the topic of what TCP actually does there are more hints in the profiles, take Jo: "Saving the world from itself is a blessed distraction."

    Oh and a thousand thanks to whomever wrote the profile for James. I love it the perfect rendering of the person I want to become into your fiction.

  22. #47
    Member
    Registered: Aug 1999
    Location: Bath, England.

    "Oh and a thousand thanks to whomever wrote the profile for James. I love it the perfect rendering of the person I want to become into your fiction."

    Gosh. Thanks.

    Though you are talking about a man who, when facing off against a particular idiot in an online conversation last-night boasted, "I'm the man that Neitzche could only prophecise".

    Interesting analysis on the point of James. Just something to add to the debate that the motivation for each member to be in Cassandra is very different.

    KG

  23. #48
    New Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Waldorf, MD, USA

    "That's what I meant with read James. 'He would give humanity back its primacy, and make make Gods of us all, Gods. Gods.' "

    Ah. But I think this more reflects James' personal ideas than anything else. He thinks that the truth will make Gods of us all but that may not be the reality for everyone else. It also really depends on what his idea of Gods are. If my idea of Gods are not the same as his then in my personal little reality I'm still not a God no matter what the effect of the Truth is.

    I believe that makes sense. Yes?

    "Interesting analysis on the point of James. Just something to add to the debate that the motivation for each member to be in Cassandra is very different."

    I certainly wouldn't debate that. If all the motivations were the same it would render the entire Cass. world completely unrealistic, as far as I'm concerned. I personally have never been in a situation where every person's motivations to complete a single task were the same. Probably never will be.

    Having read the profiles a few times before it really doesn't paint a clear picture of the original intentions the person or group who put together The Project had. I'm really interested in that because I'd imagine whatever information is gathered is ultimately in their hands. Their intentions become rather significant then.

    "Oh and a thousand thanks to whomever wrote the profile for James. I love it the perfect rendering of the person I want to become into your fiction."

    I think this borders on scary, but the character I'd most like to become is Johnny Casino. It's even more scary since I've actually read a game review from the persona of Johnny Casino. For some reason he just seems cool as fuck. I'm probably just losing my mind though. The information on the page seems to indicate that he has the most shallow motivations of anyone on the team. He just needs quick bucks to bank roll a life of Sex, Drugs and Rock n' Roll. Jesus. Now I'm just ashamed I want to be like him.

    [ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: Khan ]

  24. #49
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001

    Shouldn't there be some discussion of the nature of truth here?

  25. #50
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Cumbria, England

    No. Discussions on "truth" always become wannbe-intellectual manderings within three posts at most. This is because it's a word defined in such a way that it can neither be dismissed has relative or absolute, therefor we get people who say things like "Truth is what you make it" and similar.

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