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Thread: Thief 2 FM - The Art of Thievery (Dec. 8, 2001)

  1. #126
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: U.K.
    Hello Lachdanan, i've got nothing but bad news I'm afraid

    You can't get in the north wing on easy, higher difficulty levels only. And due to the moving about of bits in this level I haven't got a clue where the beads might be
    spoiler:
    although something tells me that they are on the belt of the guy in the indoor garden bit
    (but I might be wrong on that one). There is another thread for this FM somewhere which will probably answer all of your queries, just 'search' for art of thievery using the icons at the top of this page. I'm too lazy to get the link for you, I just got up

    Oh yeah, enjoy the rest of the level, it's one of the best around!!!

  2. #127
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2000
    Location: Birmingham, England

    The Rosary beads are on the Mech Lords belt who is located in the glass house, just look on the map for itís location. He should be on the lower level with his back turned so you can sneak up and grab em. He canít be knocked out so either gas him or kill him to make things easier.

  3. #128
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    OKay, I have found the rosary. Thanks to everybody. But what is in the north wing and in the church???

  4. #129
    Moderator
    Registered: May 2000
    Location: Thunder Bay, On., Canada
    Lots of stuff!! You'll have to play on Hard or Expert to see it, though.

  5. #130
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: England

    North Wing Key

    Isn't it funny how seemingly insignificant things really irritate you?

    I'm having great fun with The Art of Thievery and everything has been going really well with no outside help at all, and then it happens!

    I opened the North Wing door from downstairs, decided I didn't like the look of the hard floor and can hear a guard upstairs on a wood floor - better way in.

    Carry out a load of activity and end up at the other door a floor up. Now to open the door....? No. The key has disappeared!!

    I have come across this in a few other FM's as well. I presume the logic is that once you have used it, you won't need it again. However, this is not always the case as I have just found out.

    Why do it at all? When was the last time you turned a key in a lock and it disappeared? it makes no sense at all!!!!

    OK. Got that off my chest.

    This mission is fantastic. I love the scale, the grandure, the time it takes to learn the layout and the size of the mission in terms of objectives. I have taken over 7 hours so far and still have loads to do. It makes Lord Bafford's place look like an outside toilet!

    Brilliant.

  6. #131
    Moderator
    Registered: May 2000
    Location: Thunder Bay, On., Canada
    There aren't any keys that disappear after you use them in this mission. Could you have accidentally dropped it?? Either that or you've hit some sort of strange little glitch that no one else has encountered.

  7. #132
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: England
    Originally posted by Nightwalker
    Either that or you've hit some sort of strange little glitch that no one else has encountered.
    Probably, although I opened the bottom door from the inside without trouble. As it happens, my saves are usually done carefully and I only lost about 10 minutes, so no harm done. Although I did come running round a corner and smashed my nose into a door I know I had left open!

    I suspect I am going to be well down on secrets by the time I finish this and my loot isn't looking too impressive at the moment either. Still, plenty of time yet!

    This is just so much more fun than killing zombies.

  8. #133
    Moderator
    Registered: May 2000
    Location: Thunder Bay, On., Canada
    I'm glad you're enjoying RiCh's mission. It's incredibly well done and loads of fun. If you get fed up looking for secrets, after awhile, I've got a list available.

  9. #134
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: England

    Done it!

    Well, 10 hours 33 mins and 21 seconds later The Art of Thievery is history! (Underarm punch to air, followed by kung-fu sound effect! Wipes sword and replaces in scabbard over shoulder.)

    That was one mother of a mission!

    Admittedly, I have not found all the secrets, nor all the loot or pockets picked. However, I have the whole place mapped out (on 7 bits of A4! This mission is vast!).

    So, before I go back and do the whole thing again in 'optimisation mode', or even try to ghost it (am I man enough?), a few thoughts:

    1. Just like my reaction to The 7th Crystal and Calendra's Legacy, I am in awe of people like Richard Cull. I get the impression that he did it all himself. If so, does anyone know how long it took him? Deceptively good game play, good layout and although it might seem it at times, you are not needlessly taken from one end of the mansion to the other. Basically, it holds together really well!

    2. I have to admit to being a bit of a blackjacker! Like a lot of people, I like the luxury of wandering around and checking out secrets without trouble and this was no different. However, this mission makes good use of guards with helmets, forcing you to ghost round them or use gas arrows. However, it occurs to me that with not much extra work, another difficulty level could be added where ghosting is the only option - no gas arrows & no blackjack supplied! Finishing that would be something to boast about!

    3. Bruny mentioned about getting the Eye painting above the main door in the North Wing.
    spoiler:
    I laid down a moss arrow by the right hand guard and then jumped down from above using a slow-fall. Turned off the light, rope arrow up and got the picture.
    However, he referred to a well-hidden note. Is there a 'neat' way of getting it? To be honest, I don't like using slow-fall or invisibility potions - seams a bit of a cheat, if you know what I mean?

    4. Speaking of invisibility potions,
    spoiler:
    I had to use one to get across (sprint!) the room underneath the vault, to get to the switch to turn off the 'eyes'.
    has anyone done it without?

    5. If you want to know where the Lord goes to once he has come out of the guards room,
    spoiler:
    he goes to his bedroom and stands on his bed!


    And on an unconnected point, does Nightwalker ever sleep? I thought I kept odd hours, but answers come back at almost any time.

    Well, I'm off to do some work. Wonder what my next FM will be...?

  10. #135
    Moderator
    Registered: May 2000
    Location: Thunder Bay, On., Canada
    And on an unconnected point does Nightwalker ever sleep?
    LOL! I'm a bit of a night owl sometimes, but I DO occasionally catch a few winks!

    I can't say exactly how long it took Richard to make the mission, but it wasn't all that long. He had an undead mission almost all the way completed (that's a huge loss to all of us) when he ran into computer problems and lost the whole thing. After a small break, he started on "a small mansion mission" and we were gifted with the amazing "Art of Thievery". He's very talented and I'm looking forward to seeing what he produces for us from Thief 3.

    You should try ghosting it! I'm a blackjacker, too, but I've ghosted a few missions. This mission was my very first attempt and it was amazing. If you think it's well designed now, wait until you've had to take advantage of every well placed shadow and you'll truly be amazed at the thought Richard put into it. (I used the Eidos forum rules, which don't allow anything more than a first level alert (Musta been rats, etc.) You can't let the watchers do more than turn yellow and no property damage is allowed.) Beware, though, ghosting can be addictive, if you have the time.

    Getting the picture was tough.
    spoiler:
    I don't know how other people did it, but I found that if I sneaked up as far as I could on the right hand wall, laid down a moss arrow and RAN through the lighted spot to the corner by the light switch, the guard wouldn't register my presence, so that avoids using a potion. I'm sure some of the experienced ghosters have better solutions.



    I must admit to using
    spoiler:
    an invisibility potion to get across that room, too. I'm sure there is a way to do it without it, but I couldn't manage it.

  11. #136
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    Hello Nightwalker!!!!

    Thank you for your help about Manse.

    But In Thievery there are 2 of 10 secrets missing.

    Could you send me a list??

    Thanks

    Lachdanan

  12. #137
    Moderator
    Registered: May 2000
    Location: Thunder Bay, On., Canada
    I'll send them to you in a PM, Lachdanan.

  13. #138
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2000
    Location: Birmingham, England

    I thought Iíd better make an appearance and personally thank everyone whoís played and enjoyed ďArtĒ And even if you didnít enjoy it, at least it took your mind off T3 for a few hours

    AfterDark I made ďArtĒ in 2months and tested it for a further month before I let Nightwalker and Peter have it. Then I changed it further on the advice of my excellent beta testers then release it. Like Nightwalker said I did have another FM almost complete, which was even bigger and more complex than ďArtĒ unfortunately a hard drive problem made sure no-one ever saw that FM In fact, Nightwalker you were the only other person to see any screenshots of that mission

    I was working on another FM (60%complete), but Iíve now decided to call it a day and wait for T3.

    Heres the only chance youíll get to see it, unless I change my mind someday? You never know?

    http://www.culn01.freeserve.co.uk/01.jpg
    http://www.culn01.freeserve.co.uk/02.jpg


    Anyway, many thanks everyone and Iíll see you when T3 arrives


    PS I donít think Nightwalker ever sleeps too much thieving to be done

  14. #139
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: England
    Hi RiCh E,

    Originally posted by RiCh E
    [B]AfterDark I made ďArtĒ in 2months and tested it for a further month before I let Nightwalker and Peter have it.
    2 months? I think you meant 20, didn't you? Although since you describe your occupation as 'Lard arse', maybe not. Anyway, take a bow. Excellent FM.

    As for those screen shots. Wow! No one that I have seen has made much use of fog, but I can imagine having it really thick, so that buildings are just eerie shadows that loom at you out of the mist. Noise wouldn't travel far, so you could just bump into a patrolling guard almost before you knew he was there. It would make orientation difficult and add a whole new dimension.

    Anyway, like you I am waiting for T3, although I suspect we will be old and grey by the time it appears.

    In the mean time.... Go on. Do another mission for T2. You know you want to!

  15. #140
    Moderator
    Registered: May 2000
    Location: Thunder Bay, On., Canada
    Nope, he didn't mean 20, meant 2! He works fast and does a beautiful job.

  16. #141
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: England

    Estate Agent Alert!

    By the way, I have just done some rough calculations on the size of the Lord's Mansion. When I map a mission out, I use a crouched walking stride as my 'unit' which then gets transferred to some squared paper. (My main problem is that unless I know where I have been, it is very difficult to find that last 100 loot, or last 1000 loot more like!)

    I have looked at a number of 'distances' in the game and have come up with what I think is a pretty good estimate of real distance against my 'unit'.

    On this basis, the mansion is pretty bloody vast:

    Its ground floor covers about 10,000 sq yds, 90,000 sq ft or about 2 acres! A nice detached house with 5 bedrooms might have a ground floor of 1440 sq ft, excluding the garage, and most people would consider this as big. You could therefore fit over 60 houses on the Lord's Mansion plot!!!!

    The first floor is a little smaller since we must allow for all the balconies and lost floor space, but it still comes in at about 8,000 square yards or 72,000 sq ft!!

    The top floor is much smaller and only covers 2,000 square yards or 18,000 sq ft.

    So, we have a total floor area of about 180,000 sq ft!!! Curiously enough, an English football pitch only has a maximum and minimum for its' widths and lengths, but based on the average, the mansion would cover nearly 3 football pitches.

    But wait until you start looking at the cost of upkeep!! I am not aware of ever seeing the value of something that could be related to modern prices, so we will have to use current prices as a guide.

    There seem to be something like 80 staff employed, which assuming they are on a basis wage, comes to something like £1.4 million a year. Of course, he'll have a load of lackeys around that won't get paid much, but security guards are pretty well paid! Then, there's uniforms and weapons, although I doubt if anyone bothers about sick pay and pension contributions etc.

    And as for heating, electricity etc. It's the high ceilings and open spaces that really notch this up, and with stone walls, wow it would be cold in winter!

    But how much would it cost him to build in the first place? Ignoring land value, a rough guide to building costs is about £100 per sq ft for anything other than a pretty basic interior. The Lord has kitted the place out using wood panelling extensively, valuable drapes, chandeliers, marble flooring, wood flooring, wall papers and antiques. Ignoring actual 'loot' type items, I estimate that it would cost in excess of £200 million.

    The loot is beyond price and the value of his library alone must be out of this world!

    So, is he rich? Yup! I'd say so!

  17. #142
    New Member
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Antioch

    two secrets?

    What a wonderful mission!! I think that I may have created a monster in myslef by making this my first "ghosted" mission. So far I have invested 5 hours and I only have attained
    spoiler:
    The Trickster's Eye painting and the Air Elemental stone.
    Im playing on expert and I only knocked out one person so far and that was with a gas arrow (and as far as I can tell according to the objectives screen......it says no knockouts with your BLACKJACK, so I believe that I am still going to accomplish this goal). I couldn't fiqure out how to get past
    spoiler:
    the priest standing behind the podium by the air elemental
    so I had to knock him out with a gas arrrow.
    So anyway, I have stumbled upon two of the secrets that individuals have listed in above posts, but I can't seem to get them to work. I have found the room with the
    spoiler:
    ships wheel but it won't turn, it looks as though it might be missing a peg, do I need to find this missing peg to get it to work?
    and also the
    spoiler:
    room behind the small library with the patrolling little bot. I found a bottle atop of the armoire but it was only worth gold. Other than that I haven't located the switch to activate the secret door.

    Any suggestions or help I would greatly appreciate.......I figure I will be playing this mission for some time in the current mode I'm in!

  18. #143
    Moderator
    Registered: May 2000
    Location: Thunder Bay, On., Canada
    Using a gas arrow won't bust the ghost as far as this mission goes. If you're playing using the real "Ghost" rules set up by the Eidos players, it would, but that's a personal choice. It's tough even just getting through according to the ghost setting in the mission.

    spoiler:
    To get by the priest at the front of the Chapel, you can rope arrow down from the rafters above without alerting him.


    The secrets you're having trouble with:

    spoiler:
    The ships wheel does need a peg to turn. Check the guard standing outside the door.


    spoiler:
    On Expert, you have to check under the table for a switch in the small room at the back of that Library.


    Have fun!

  19. #144
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Denver, CO.

    One secret missing...

    Okay, just finished the mission on easy mode; and I have a question. I found 9 out of the ten secrets, and I'm pretty sure I know where the tenth is, but I can't open it:

    spoiler:
    I think it's beside the clock that stands on the big stairway leading to the glass room balcony...the 'window' beside the clock. I know it's a door, I've whacked it and it rings, but how to open it? Does the 'Toolbox Key' have anything to do with it?


    Also, a stupid observation; there are no restrooms in the whole mansion! At least, none that I've found.

  20. #145
    Thiefmissions.com
    Moderator

    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Houston, Tx., USA
    Originally posted by RiCh E
    I was working on another FM (60%complete), but I've now decided to call it a day and wait for T3.
    That statement coupled with those two screenshots are extremely depressing. I haven't even had a chance to play Art of Thievery yet, but Smuggler's Request was just so great....
    - J<

  21. #146
    Moderator
    Registered: May 2000
    Location: Thunder Bay, On., Canada
    Deep Shadow: The toolbox key does nothing. Some careless betatester ( me) just didn't notice it there.

    spoiler:
    That window isn't a secret on this difficulty setting, but you're right about it not being a real window. You have to play on the expert setting to find out what it does.



  22. #147
    New Member
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Antioch

    I must be blind

    Thanks Nightwalker for your help, but I cannot find
    spoiler:
    the lever or switch in the room behind the library that the little bot patrolls. Let me describe the room....maybe I have the wrong one? Like I said before it is a small room behind the small library that has a armoire, dresser, sofa and a small round coffee table in the corner. I have even thrown scouting orbs underneath each of these objects to only see nothing. There are three doors in this room, two of which the bot comes in and exits into the library. The other one goes into a hallway that has the secret door behind the armoire activated by the switch on the door frame to this very room.
    Am I going about this all wrong.....do I have the wrong room???
    I figured that using that gas arrow would technically disqualify me from a TRUE "ghost", but I have since put in two hours of thieving....... and this is after all my first attempt at doing such.

  23. #148
    Moderator
    Registered: May 2000
    Location: Thunder Bay, On., Canada
    It sounds like you're doing remarkably well, gas arrow or not!

    As for the secret, you are playing on the expert setting, correct? It's called "Stealth" or "Ghost" depending which screen you look at.
    spoiler:
    We are definitely talking about the same Library, but the wrong room! Go into the Library and down to the far end. There's a door down there that you can pick open. That's the room that has the secret in it. When you walk in the door, there's a small table over in the far right corner. Crouch and look under it for a lever.
    This has a different trigger if you're playing on Hard or Easy. On those settings, it's
    spoiler:
    opened by frobbing a book.

  24. #149
    Member
    Registered: May 2002

    the art of thievery

    im lost how do i get into the north wing???

  25. #150
    Moderator
    Registered: May 2000
    Location: Thunder Bay, On., Canada
    You need to give me much more information. For instance, what difficulty setting are you playing on? You can get into the North wing on Hard and Expert, but not on Normal. If you're playing on one of the two that allow you to enter the North Wing, then do you have the key yet? If not, is that the problem? If you do and you just can't find the door, then where are you, so I can give you directions on where to go? See, more info please.

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