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Thread: T2 FM: Embracing the Enemy (Dec 20, 2000)

  1. #51
    TTLG Server Goddess
    Gone, but not forgotten

    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Out of my mind...

    MsLedd pinches belboz

  2. #52
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: The Maw Of Chaos

    I loved EtE. It was released almost concurrently with Saturio Returns Home, and frankly at first I liked Saturio a hell of a lot more -- mostly because of what I saw as restrictive, linear gameplay.

    Notice that I said 'at first' -- that's because I just ditched EtE right away to play Saturio after playing about 5 minutes of each. Needless to say, I hadn't gotten very far in EtE at the time. And Saturio hit you with a massive load of eye candy all at once, in a concentrated area, right off the bat.

    But when I went back to EtE I discovered a much greater depth of gameplay -- and the one thing that really clinched it for me: rooftop climbing.

    I loved the climbing element of EtE. I mean, dammit, what good's a castle with a tower and walls unless I can climb all over the place? I climbed everywhere in that mission, and in the process I discovered a whole bunch of 'too many poly' bugs -- but I didn't care, it was sweet as hell, because the author had purposefully left the whole area climbeable. Not only that, but the storytelling/gameplay mix was actually close to perfect -- for instance, I love that you could choose to take on/sneak by those two guards and take a shortcut right away -- OR you could go the long way around, be a lot better informed, and approach them from behind.

    And when that guard turned the gas light back on -- eek! Caught me with my pants down.

    Although it's a little late now, I do have some bugs to report btw.

    -- When I saw Alex in the library area, where he walks into the secret door, I actually saw him a ways off and shot him with a gas arrow. Needless to say, he didn't pass out, and so I wasted 4 arrows before I figured he was there for cutscene purposes.

    -- Some of the particle effects from a blood animation do that 'never-ending swirl' that eventually makes them just an occasional flickering red dot. I think the problem is outside somewhere.

    -- If you climb on the exterior wall all the way down to the vineyard area and look towards the castle, if you find the right spot you can get a massive Hall of Mirrors effect.

    Hehe, that's it! Seriously, that's all, and the last one isn't even a bug.

    Edit: oh, yeah, also Montague is immune to gas arrows in the office, and you can't follow him when he leaves the room . . . that's necessary for story of course, but I thoguht I'd mention it. I don't care, because unlike an action game, there is no immediate disruption of my 'game plan'; it's Thief, so I have time to think.

  3. #53
    Registered: Apr 2000

    Embracing the Enemy

    I just KO'd a couple of guards and tried to open a gate that is at the north end of their little area. A lever in one of the guard-rooms does not light up when I approach it, and this strikes me as strange. If I need to get to the master bedroom to protect the Lord, how do I get there? There's also a sewer-type gate that I cannot open after I crawl around for a bit after descending through a small gated opening. Where is the key for that door? Thanks for any help you can give!
    Last edited by Nightwalker; 6th Dec 2012 at 17:01.

  4. #54
    Registered: Mar 1999
    Location: California, USA

    You on the right track. That non-highlighting lever must be the front gate lever. It's only there for looks (you can't go out the front) so I made it unusable.

    Make your way to the ball room which is just west of the front gate...

    And remember, there is always a sneaky solution.

    Also, you'll open that lid at a later time...

    [ June 21, 2001: Message edited by: kfgecko ]

  5. #55
    Registered: Mar 1999
    Location: California, USA

    Hmmm... it sounds like you already went to the library room... and found the special book. That's near a way up to the master bedroom... but Montague is in.... (did you listen to the conversation of Benny and the female servant?)

    Montague is in....
    his office

    How do you get there?
    Look at the ceiling of the green room

  6. #56
    Registered: Apr 2000

    Thanks kfgecko, I'll give your advice a try. BTW, nice mission!

  7. #57
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Lost in the BSP...

    Yes. Very good mission and neat scripting of the interactions between characters.

  8. #58
    Registered: Mar 1999
    Location: California, USA

    Roots of ETE: The Ransom Brat

    I'm sure not many people care about this, but I just looked at my old cobwebsite and saw a description of a mission that eventually evolved itself into what currently available as Embracing the Enemy. I had forgotten all about this til now. I thought maybe some would find it interesting.

    The Ransom Brat

    Lord Montague has long been a tyrant over a nearby city and has made life quite miserable for the townspeople. The people have had enough. A group of the town's men have secretly come to me with a plan to strike a blow upon Montague where it will hurt him the most: his wealth. They figure the best way to get his wealth is to have Montague hand it to them himself. Getting him to do that is where I come in.

    There's only one person in this world that Montague actually cares about: his spoiled daughter, Josephine. They want me to sneak into his countryside manor and kidnap the girl so they can hold her for ransom. This plan can really leave Montague vulnerable. His own guards already grumble about their harsh and stingy employer. After the ransom, Montague may not be able to pay this month's salary to his men; and payday is coming up. This is the kind of job I can feel good about: it has noble intentions and I get paid.

    The manor is out in the countryside, which poses a little problem for me. The night is the best time to sneak into the manor but the countryside at night is a dangerous place to be. I'll have to be extra careful as I won't have the comfort of the city walls to protect me from the wild animals, brigands, and whatever evil lurks in the wilderness.

    My employers have arranged for me to stay at the cottage of a farmer named Layk, the nearest friendly structure to the manor. I'll need to wait until nightfall, make my way through the night forest to the manor, find a way in, locate and incapacitate Montague's brat, and bring her back to farmer Layk's cottage. This will be interesting.

    - Kidnap Montague's daughter and bring her back to farmer Layk.
    - Don't kill the girl; she's not useful if she's dead.
    -Montague's a rich guy. Steal 800/1200/1600 loot while you're there.
    -(hard/expert) Don't kill any of the servants or guards; they just work there.
    -(expert) It would be really helpful to have an idea of how rich Montague really is. Find some information about his treasury.

    [ June 27, 2001: Message edited by: kfgecko ]

  9. #59
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: Michigan


    Sounds like a well rounded plot while adding an interesting aspect to this thief's personality. Human booty is a goal that many thieves would avoid. Think on it. We have to steal them, port them about, hide them, feed them, and then arrange for participation of the other parties to receive payment. It's very dangerous to establish contact with someone you just offended (and robbed).

    Now this story is interesting because other people will handle the negociations with Montague. If this bastard is as rich and powerful as expected then he will try capturing the negociators. Most likely he will succeed in nabbing someone connected to the kidnapping. They will give up your name when tortured because you are, after all, a lowly thief.

    I liked Embracing the Enemy very much, by the way.
    In fact, I threw Montague out the tower's highest window so the world would think he committed suicide. I also managed getting all three defense tower guards with one gas arrow. Using a broadhead to alert them, then timing the gas when they were closest together. Fun.

    By the way, I'm back to the starting point, with my, ahem , package. The mission has not awarded me that final "Take [objective] with you on your way out. Am I forgetting something?

  10. #60
    Registered: Mar 1999
    Location: California, USA

    To end the mission, drop *ahem* near the scarecrow. Then walk away from the area (like back up to the castle) then come back. It's a quirk in the way the objective goals work... I wish there was a better solution.

  11. #61
    Registered: Mar 1999
    Location: California, USA

    BTW, there used to be a FAQ here at TTLG for ETE. I've asked to have it put back. In the meantime, here's another site that has the ETE FAQ:

  12. #62
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: Ontario

    Embracing The dumb*spoiler*

    Alright, I got Alex, the stupid alarm is going off and driving me nuts, I ve been all around the damn house 20 times, even fed the cheese to the mouse in the cellar. I need to kill Montague now and I cant find him. I have a feeling it has something to do with the lever in the room with the watcher and the 2 turrets...but the lever wont select and i cant figure out what the hell to do...there is also a door at the bottom of stairs that im trying to figure out how to open without success. Its driving me bonkers. please help

  13. #63
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

    Have you been on the balcony outside Montague's room? There's a rope arrow there. You must climb it in order to finish the mission.

    So, what are you waiting? Up the rope you go...Why do you move so slooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwww!

  14. #64
    Taking a break
    Registered: Dec 2000
    Location: Orem, UT, USA

    Just finished Embracing the Enemy - Pretty cool!

    There were some flaws with it, and I thought some of what I had to do was too contrived (like forcing me to sneak so much - I ended up just luring guards away to a dark hall and then knocking then out, one by one), but those things didn't detract much from everything else that was good. Overall the mission is great and very well built to say the least! In some places the archetecture ROCKED! And nowhere was it lame. I also loved the little extras here and there that really added nice touches I was amazing sometimes as how much I could view and still have just fine framerates!

    Good job Kung Fu Gecko!

  15. #65
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Lost in the BSP...

    I thought kfgecko had some pretty unique ideas for the vines you could climb. I think I finished the mission, then realized how much easier it would have been to climb up those things. First time I remember seeing climbable vines, but I'm sure there are/were others. Very nice!

  16. #66
    Registered: Mar 1999
    Location: California, USA

    I'm really glad you liked it. I'm just curious, how come it took so long for you to try it out?

    I feel like ETE has niche appeal only... as I chose to make it totally linear (to add cinematic story effect). It seems to have detracted from the traditional Thief missions (like Bloodstone). I sort of fell victim to "over grand ideas" and ended up having to implement just a subset of my original ideas. Finally, the middle of the mission was probably more climatic than the end. It seems that Bloodstone definitely has more widespread appeal.

    Oh yeah... and I worked pretty hard to balance frame rates.... I'm glad you appreciated it.
    My Thief 2 missions: Embracing the Enemy, Creature Clash 2, Warehouse 51
    My Thief 1 missions: Bloodstone Prison,The Library, Creature Clash

    "And dost the blackjack say to the knoggin, 'be still, for I shall bonk you?'
    Nay! 'Tis the allies of darkness and surprise that belet club meet skull for glorious bonkitude."

    - Tennents of the Master Bonker

  17. #67
    Registered: Aug 1999
    Location: terrible canyons of static

    I personally liked the linearity of ETE. If one is to use linearic gameplay flow in a level, then there must be a good reason for it - ETE had a good story. The only gripe I have is with the final objective - as you said it yourself, kfgecko, it wasn't much of a climax once you get to where you needed to. But the climb sure was fun Anyway, ETE is a very fine level, and belongs to my T2 top 5 FMs.

    Hats off to you, kfgecko!

  18. #68
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Lost in the BSP...

    Originally posted by kfgecko:
    I'm really glad you liked it. I'm just curious, how come it took so long for you to try it out?
    Some things take time....

    Oh yeah... and I worked pretty hard to balance frame rates....
    Excellent job!!!

    "And dost the blackjack say to the knoggin, 'be still, for I shall bonk you?'
    Nay! 'Tis the allies of darkness and surprise that belet club meet skull for glorious bonkitude."
    - Tennents of the Master Bonker

  19. #69
    Taking a break
    Registered: Dec 2000
    Location: Orem, UT, USA

    There are a bunch of FM's I still need to play, especially some big ones like Willow Island, Benny's Dead, Inverted Manse, Raid on Washout Central, T2 Ranstall Keep, and more. There are also a TON of not so popular FM's that I've never played yet, but plan to still.

    I actually didn't do ETE the "right" way, now that I look back on it. I always kept luring guards away to other areas, then knocking them out and then going back and finding the next guard. When I got to the guard with a helmet on the stairs past the ballroom, I lured him and had him chase me all the way back outside way way back around the winery, then I just ran back and had lots of time while he walked back, having lost me. So I never went to the library room until I came DOWN from the bedroom and was already in the secret passage behind the bookshelf and came out into the library that way.

    Later, I never could find any way to go, so I managed to rope-arrow up from the bedroom out the broken window, and into the inner courtyard area. I climbed around and behind the roof over to where Alex was, so I didn't come in through the attic room at all. When I saw Alex, I figured it was him, though the speech que hadn't been tripped to tell me that yet. I gassed him and the objective checked off. Then I explored the office, and climbed up on the rafters, and when I got near the hole up there the sound que went off, but at that point it didn't make sense! And I could see into the attic room, but I couldn't actually get in there from the office, but I'm sure that's the way I was meant to come in the first place.

    But that aside, I like the mission

  20. #70
    Registered: Mar 1999
    Location: California, USA

    Damn!! I tried (but apparently failed) to prevent people from going the wrong way... I should have made it IMPOSSIBLE to go the wrong way (like make those stupid windows unbreakable).

    I also purposely made it impossible to sneak that guard at the top of the stairs.... to force the player to think of a different strategy... ie Alex's strategy via the bookshelf.

    Grrrr.... I think I'm gonna have to release an update, aren't I?

    Well, I hope you enjoyed the intent of the mission. ETE is a "first timer" experience, where it's never the same if you don't get it right the first time. Was sneaking too difficult in this mission?

    Here's the original order of events I wanted:

    - climb vine near wheel barrel onto roof of winery, drop down chimney
    - rope up to the grape conveyor belt and slip into one of the vats for grape crushing.
    - rope up to the ceiling beams totally undetected by the AI
    - moss to jump off the beams and get to the office (pull switch to open gate)
    - sneak behind fermentation vats, go past the gate into the "cave" and into the basement (ignore the wine storage area for now)
    - see squeak (ignore him for now) and pick open the servants quarters gate (see Alex #1)
    - sneak up stairs near kitchen, eavesdrop conversation (learn whereabouts of Montague and hints about squeak)
    - can't go the back stairs (with security cam) so go other hall with open panel and fraying electric
    - chop the wire to cut the lights, sneak into the hall
    - optionally go up to the dining room for loot
    - enter gallery for loot, learn how to turn off lamps
    - can't go up west hall cuz of guard, go up east hall instead (hide behind mask stands if necessary)
    - enter east corner hall, shut down lamp
    - douse gas lamps in foyer, run to switch off lamp when guard and cam aren't looking
    - enter west corner hall, shut down lamp
    - enter waiting room to ballroom, enter ball room (hide behind planter)
    - moss floor, sneak behind orchestra box
    - rope up to ledge and sneak to dark corner
    - sneak behind rose box, next corner, next rose box, jump on to stairs
    - go up stairs to guest rooms for loot
    - douse gas lamp to avoid being seen
    - follow cam wire to guard room and shut down cam (read book)
    - continue down hall and see Alex #2 run and disappear somewhere
    - continue to library and note: Alex has disappeared (where'd he go?), Alex dropped coins, coin path leads to secret book button
    - enter secret book shelf door
    - climb ladder to Montague's bedroom, steal stuff
    - douse hanging lamp in round room and moss
    - douse lamps in hall with guards
    - sneak up shadow of moonlight up to waiting room
    - open ceiling door of green waiting room, get into attick
    - slash banner and subdue Alex! (Montague runs, sets off alarm, learn of the treachery)
    - exit balcony, climb Alex's rope
    - traverse walls to look out tower, KO the sleeping guard
    - lean out window and rope the beam, slide down rope to other top of wall
    - follow wall to ledge (windows to Montague's bedroom)
    - continue west, jump on wall ledge, follow to tower and onto roof of shed
    - go around lower ledge of tower to climbable vine
    - climb vine to upper ledge of tower and go around corner to climb another vine up to open window
    - enter through window, sneak downstairs and kill Montague
    - continue downstairs and flip switch to open the man hole door, sneak back to library
    - go up to Montague's bedroom, out to his balcony
    - rope the beam outside, and slide down
    - make way back to vineyard

    How many of you basically followed this?

  21. #71
    Taking a break
    Registered: Dec 2000
    Location: Orem, UT, USA

    Hmm, I never knew about chopping the wire or turning off the lamps!

  22. #72
    Registered: Aug 2001
    Location: The wild jungles of my head

    Wait, you can actually blackjack the guards?! I tried to blackjack one of the keepers, and he didn't go down. So I tried a bit of sneaking, but the continual footsteps freaked me out, so I never finished it...
    Are keepers guards, btw?
    Avaricious Firebrand
    Clan Larcenio Haul
    "We Haul Assets"

  23. #73
    Taking a break
    Registered: Dec 2000
    Location: Orem, UT, USA

    "Embracing the Enemy" is not "Equilibrium", which is the one you're talking about with the keepers.

  24. #74
    Registered: Aug 2001
    Location: In the kitchen with the rope.

    I just have a problem with that fm...

    I get to the part where you get outside the castle and see an unconsious body. You can then hear Garrett say "Looks like Alex got here before me!" What do I have to do?? I am lost!

  25. #75
    Registered: Mar 1999
    Location: California, USA



    That unconscious guy is just a guard... and it just means Alex is just ahead of you...

    Keep going north (up the east hall) and turn off the lamp in the hall.... you should traverse the front gate foyer and get to the ball room for access to the upper floors......

    Good luck!

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