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Thread: Ruins of Originia FM4: Ashes to Ashes support

  1. #101
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Location: namedrocalypse
    I'm aware that I just necro'd an old thread, but I'm wondering if anyone else has had this issue.

    I fiercely love the Originia missions despite (or perhaps partially because) of) their difficulty.

    I've played through them many times in the past. However, Since I started using NewDark, I've played the missions 3 times in the last three years and have noticed each time that a gimmick the creator wanted you to exploit...well, can no longer be exploited.

    The mystic soul gems (Oldolf, Quagnali, Mythra, Alphadius, Zazarius) are supposed to be used to spot invisible or nearly-invisible things. The Shadow Beasts, the personal enforcers of the Dark One are the most obvious example, but they can also be used to find a secret in the last mission - The Power Cells exhibit has a manipulable floor panel that leads to flooded passage that ends up in the central core of the power room (the big structure in the center resembling a holding tank). The core has an invaluably useful and unique item, the Clear Orb. However to get the panel to open, you have to find an invisible key and then use it to unlock a lockbox which is also invisible.

    I have tried dicking with scripts to no effect. I can only assume the engine changes from NewDark broke this "feature". It doesn't break the mission, but does end up making an extremely tough mission even more difficult.

    You can still technically spot the Shadows but their outlines are almost totally invisible and even though they still emit black hazy smoke, even that is hard to see - even with good sources of light trained on them. So hard to see, in fact, that I had to edit this screenie to point them out.


    For comparison's sake, here is a pic from an old walkthough that shows how revealing the Soul Gems originally were...

    Last edited by metal dawn; 15th Jun 2018 at 07:06.

  2. #102
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: On parole
    I replayed that one a few days ago and never realised the Gem of Oldorf was not working correctly, but your correct, it played the same way with me. Hopefully a dml can fix this issue.

  3. #103
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Location: namedrocalypse
    Yes, I hope so too.

    I mostly posted this as a friendly warning to those using Yametha's walkthrough.

    Amusingly, despite being so old, that one feature about the gems is the only thing "broken" about Originia. It has aged phenomenally well considering all the game changes, engine-related and otherwise.
    Last edited by metal dawn; 10th Jun 2018 at 17:12.

  4. #104
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Norway (currently Phoenix, AZ)
    I can verify that the gem's feature of revealing hidden items also did not work in mission 1 Mines of Margroth in NewDark for me. Can't comment on missions 2-4. A .dml would be very nice.

  5. #105
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Location: On parole
    I've heard back from Unna

    There's nothing on the Gem or the Shadowbeasts that in theory make the beasts visible using the Gem, bizarrely the gem has a hue of 10, but there is no such thing as hue 10 in Dromed, it goes from 0-1, so she thinks that YcatX took advantage of an Olddark bug that has self corrected with Newdark.

    So this bug can't be corrected with a dml.

    The best that can be done atm is I'll place a note in my Ruins of Originia lootlist informing players they are unable to use the gem.

  6. #106
    Dóttirin klęšist oft móšur möttli
    Registered: Apr 2015
    Here's a fix. It's not exactly the same setup, but it has the same effect. The shadowbeasts become visible when using a gem.
    Code:
    DML1
    //Fixed light based transparency on Shadowbeasts//bantar.gam.dml
    
    
    +ObjProp -7843 "LBAlpha"            
    {
        "Active" true
        "Min alpha" 0.01
        "Max alpha" 1.00
        "Light level (0-100) for min" 70
        "Light level (0-100) for max" 90
    }
    Code:
    DML1
    //Fixed light based transparency on items//miss28.mis.dml
    
    +ObjProp 328 "LBAlpha"  //invisible key is invisible by design//transparent texture          
    {
        "Active" true
        "Min alpha" 0.01
        "Max alpha" 1.00
        "Light level (0-100) for min" 1
        "Light level (0-100) for max" 10
    }
    +ObjProp 330 "LBAlpha"            
    {
        "Active" true
        "Min alpha" 0.01
        "Max alpha" 1.00
        "Light level (0-100) for min" 1
        "Light level (0-100) for max" 100
    }
    +ObjProp 335 "LBAlpha"            
    {
        "Active" true
        "Min alpha" 0.01
        "Max alpha" 1.00
        "Light level (0-100) for min" 1
        "Light level (0-100) for max" 100
    }
    +ObjProp 328 "SelfLit"            
    {
        "" 9
    }
    
    
    +ObjProp 328 "SelfLitRad"         
    {
        "" 11
    }
    Last edited by Unna Oertdottir; 4th Nov 2018 at 18:56.

  7. #107
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Location: namedrocalypse
    Excellent. I really appreciate you going to all that trouble. I'll give it a go on my next playthrough.

  8. #108
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Lootahville, Kenyahee
    Damn. I am going to have to read this thread. My phone is too small.

  9. #109
    So, uhh... either I'm doing something wrong here, or something's not working with Unna's dml fixes.

    Just to make sure I'm doing this right:

    1 - Copy text from quote field into a text file and save it.
    2 - Rename text file so that its filename matches that as given in the quote field, ensuring there's a '.dml' extension at the end.
    3 - Do this so that first file is 'bantar.gam.dml' and the second file is 'miss28.gam.dml'.
    4 - Copy the .dml files into the root directory of the FM, so that they sit next to their parent files (in this case 'bantar.gam' and 'miss28.gam' are joined by 'bantar.gam.dml' and 'miss28.gam.dml').

    After doing this, I load up Ruins of Originia, skip to Ashes to Ashes and make my way down to the bottom of the crater.

    With both dml files enabled I can see the Shadowbeasts clearly at the bottom of the crater, even from high up above (they look like regular Treebeasts with black smoke coming from them).

    With the bantar dml file renamed to have an .xxx extension (effectively disabling it) I reloaded the mission and the Shadowbeasts became their invisible selves again.

    Restoring the bantar dml file, but disabling the miss28 dml file instead turned the Shadowbeasts into regular Treebeasts again, but not other changes were visible.

    Also, throwing the Gem of Orlof near them didn't change anything about their appearance, regardless of which dml files were enabled/disabled.

    Everything points to the bantar dml file not doing its job properly.

    Any ideas?

  10. #110
    Dóttirin klęšist oft móšur möttli
    Registered: Apr 2015
    The 2nd is
    miss28.mis.dml

  11. #111
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Lootahville, Kenyahee
    I was afraid that changes to dark engine, would likely break my missions. The engine was so limited when I made them, I had to use several blue rooms and immortal invisible rats that operated buttons. Thinner was going to be next to impossible to implement because there was little support of campaign variables at the time. Part of me believes, that I really screwed up making it so insanely difficult and long.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by YcatX View Post
    Part of me believes, that I really screwed up making it so insanely difficult and long.
    No. Don't ever think that.

    You were one of many ambitious taffers who looked at DromEd back in the day and not only wondered how far you could push it, but actually went and did it. In doing so you showed others what could be done with DromEd, and inspired them to try to follow in your footsteps. Many of them not only did that, but they then went and pushed DromEd even further. It's fair criticism to say that you did some things in Ruins of Originia that have thankfully not been repeated in later Fan Missions, but that's normal, it's part of the creative process. 'Throwing things at the wall and see what sticks' is a perfectly valid way of doing things.

    As for the players, you laid down a tough challenge before them. Gamers being gamers, they eventually rose up to it and overcame it. I'm willing to bet that many of them enjoyed the challenge, despite the "insane" length and difficulty. Your campaign has a certain feel to it that made me (just to name an example) want to see what more was ahead, regardless of what was thrown at me. The difficulty did not bother me as much as the tedium of some of the required actions. Like genociding the burricks (gotta bonk 'em all) or just walking around inside the museum (my kingdom for an even floor!). In my opinion Ruins of Originia is the closest thing Thief players can get to the Ultima Underworld games, and Ashes to Ashes in particular has a strong UUW2 vibe to it.

    You should be proud, and it's not your fault that updates to Thief have "broken" the missions. How were you supposed to know the future direction of the Dark Engine back then?

    Don't be too hard on yourself. The campaign still works and people still revisit it today, after all these years. That's a nice little legacy to leave behind.

    Unna: Thanks for that, corrected the error, tested it again... same result. Took the test further this time, reached the Power Cells room with both dml scripts enabled. The Invisible Key is truly and utterly invisible. Further tests will have to wait.

  13. #113
    Dóttirin klęšist oft móšur möttli
    Registered: Apr 2015
    According to my notes, this part of the mission design (light based transparency on Shadowbeasts) is based on a bug in the old engine and NewDark has fixed it. I had to correct this.
    That happended in other FMs, too. FM authors couldn't know what's a bug and what not. In this case it was working for years until that NewDark party pooper came along.

  14. #114
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2004
    Location: Germany
    I have checked briefly with NewDark v1.25, and for me, the Shadowbeasts are also looking like ordinary treebeasts, except for the smoke... they look like farting treebeasts now. The Gem of Oldorf also just adds some colour to the scene, otherwise it doesn't change the beasts' appearance.

    I think this is not a game-breaker. I do not know, however, what happens in other parts of the missions where one needs the Gem to reveal invisible things.

  15. #115
    Dóttirin klęšist oft móšur möttli
    Registered: Apr 2015
    I updated the gamesys dml. The shadowbeasts should be more transparent in the bright light now.

    This is how the shadowbeasts look like in OldDark. Transparency based on a bug (hue=10) which doesn't work in NewDark
    It's the same shadowbeast. The Gem of Oldorf is under the beasts feet
    https://imgur.com/lL64jcY



    In NewDark + dml: Light based transparency

    https://imgur.com/YlZDrgs




  16. #116
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2004
    Location: Germany
    Very good, Unna! The new version of the DML's does work sufficiently with the Shadowbeast in the beginning of the last mission. I did not yet reach other spots in the missions where the DML's should make a difference, so I can't speak of that yet.

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